Alien archaeology and other mysteries: Breaking News, Theories and Tinfoil Hattery

[bAdbUd]

dunno if that was the question,
but megaships do not use the small-ships hyperjump engine, because its to big (lore). they are using whichspacedrive (similar to battlecruiser that jump into combatzones)

That's not actually true. They use the same technology as ALL other ships regardless of size. There is some handwavium about how they are able to jump into CZ's rather than entry stars, but it has been confirmed. I'll try and find the source of that information.

The SFX that they create when entering/exiting CZ's is due to the size of the ship/drive as they punch through Hyperspace creating that effect, not because the use different drives.

 

[Han_Zen]

dunno if that was the question,
but megaships do not use the small-ships hyperjump engine, because its to big (lore). they are using whichspacedrive (similar to battlecruiser that jump into combatzones)

Michael Brookes actually answered this question once, regarding the Battle cruisers.

Hyperspace and whitchspace are two words for the same thing.

The big drives are based on the same technology as the smaller versions that we use. They are just to massive to super cruise, so they have to be able to plot a specific arrival position within in a system.

Thargoids seem to do something similar.

 

[Vasious]

Michael Brookes actually answered this question once, regarding the Battle cruisers.

Hyperspace and whitchspace are two words for the same thing.

The big drives are based on the same technology as the smaller versions that we use. They are just to massive to super cruise, so they have to be able to plot a specific arrival position within in a system.

Thargoids seem to do something similar.

Yeah, originally he said Jaques and the Capital ships (and I guess the orbit star ports that jump)used the old drives, hence the old style arrival and departure clouds with lightning, then it was changed to they are the new Quick Jump drives just they cannot super cruise, and I am guessing they need scouts to beacon in the point to point jumps not to the main system star (like our wing beacons sort of )

In Fact the ED manual still states the new drives fold space to travel between stars and not go into hyperspace
Page 76

"The frame shift drive can be activated to compress space to the point where ships can travel light-years in seconds, jumping from one star system to another in moments. Such travel is known colloquially as a hyperspace jump."

So inconsistency?

Or Just a Pilot Federation Manual downplaying the old fear of Hyperspace as witchspace?

Or a hyperdiction is just a normal Interdiction in SC at vast speeds

but then we can scan wakes and get Eccentric Hyperspace Trajectories

"Hyperspace trajectories follow predictable paths through higher dimensional space, although there are sometimes strange results in the data not accounted for in current theory."

So Hyperspace is back to a different dimension, unless compressing space increases its frequency as a wave form?​

Then there is the Original Elite Era log entry(Base 7 Reverse-engineered 3/6) saying Human drives use special compression back then as well, suggesting a Frame shift like drive vs the Hypersapce tunnel ones we see in Elite FE2 & FFE

And we are back to FTL being compressing space and not another dimension

Which contract the Galnet history of Hyperspace, which has it as another dimension again....

In all the Novels, the EDRPG and the Elite Encounters RPG (<- A Fabulous source of history and culture as it aligns with the Tourist beacons) it seems to be another dimension one traverses

So I have put together my own theory on the history and development of FTL which is probably wrong but I am trying to be self consistent.

MB we need you

Well that is my stock tangent on when the Megaship, Capital ship and Star port hyperdrives are debated on

---

Has there been anything in game or in Galnet about

Wreaken in Col 70, I forget, as I was looking for things outside the novels
I know there is the Megaship in the Permit locked system but where it "arrived before the permit" or not is unknown​

​

 

[Han_Zen]

Yeah, originally he said Jaques and the Capital ships (and I guess the orbit star ports that jump)used the old drives, hence the old style arrival and departure clouds with lightning, then it was changed to they are the new Quick Jump drives just they cannot super cruise, and I am guessing they need scouts to beacon in the point to point jumps not to the main system star (like our wing beacons sort of )

In Fact the ED manual still states the new drives fold space to travel between stars and not go into hyperspace
Page 76

"The frame shift drive can be activated to compress space to the point where ships can travel light-years in seconds, jumping from one star system to another in moments. Such travel is known colloquially as a hyperspace jump."

So inconsistency?

Or Just a Pilot Federation Manual downplaying the old fear of Hyperspace as witchspace?

Or a hyperdiction is just a normal Interdiction in SC at vast speeds

but then we can scan wakes and get Eccentric Hyperspace Trajectories

"Hyperspace trajectories follow predictable paths through higher dimensional space, although there are sometimes strange results in the data not accounted for in current theory."

So Hyperspace is back to a different dimension, unless compressing space increases its frequency as a wave form?​

Then there is the Original Elite Era log entry(Base 7 Reverse-engineered 3/6) saying Human drives use special compression back then as well, suggesting a Frame shift like drive vs the Hypersapce tunnel ones we see in Elite FE2 & FFE

And we are back to FTL being compressing space and not another dimension

Which contract the Galnet history of Hyperspace, which has it as another dimension again....

In all the Novels, the EDRPG and the Elite Encounters RPG (<- A Fabulous source of history and culture as it aligns with the Tourist beacons) it seems to be another dimension one traverses

So I have put together my own theory on the history and development of FTL which is probably wrong but I am trying to be self consistent.

MB we need you

Well that is my stock tangent on when the Megaship, Capital ship and Star port hyperdrives are debated on

---

Has there been anything in game or in Galnet about

Wreaken in Col 70, I forget, as I was looking for things outside the novels
I know there is the Megaship in the Permit locked system but where it "arrived before the permit" or not is unknown​

​

I actually think that a fourth spatial dimension is needed for any of this to work.

When you have two dots on a paper, you can bend it to get the dots closer together. This requires a third dimension to bent the paper in.

If you are to bend 3D space, one would think you need a fourth dimension to bend it in.

Traveling between the two dots on the paper does not get shorter unless you leave the plane(2D) of the paper. You have to go extra dimensional, no matter what approach you use.

 

[Jorki Rasalas]

Yeah, originally he said Jaques and the Capital ships (and I guess the orbit star ports that jump)used the old drives, hence the old style arrival and departure clouds with lightning, then it was changed to they are the new Quick Jump drives just they cannot super cruise, and I am guessing they need scouts to beacon in the point to point jumps not to the main system star (like our wing beacons sort of )

In Fact the ED manual still states the new drives fold space to travel between stars and not go into hyperspace
Page 76

"The frame shift drive can be activated to compress space to the point where ships can travel light-years in seconds, jumping from one star system to another in moments. Such travel is known colloquially as a hyperspace jump."

So inconsistency?

Or Just a Pilot Federation Manual downplaying the old fear of Hyperspace as witchspace?

Or a hyperdiction is just a normal Interdiction in SC at vast speeds

but then we can scan wakes and get Eccentric Hyperspace Trajectories

"Hyperspace trajectories follow predictable paths through higher dimensional space, although there are sometimes strange results in the data not accounted for in current theory."

So Hyperspace is back to a different dimension, unless compressing space increases its frequency as a wave form?​

Then there is the Original Elite Era log entry(Base 7 Reverse-engineered 3/6) saying Human drives use special compression back then as well, suggesting a Frame shift like drive vs the Hypersapce tunnel ones we see in Elite FE2 & FFE

And we are back to FTL being compressing space and not another dimension

Which contract the Galnet history of Hyperspace, which has it as another dimension again....

In all the Novels, the EDRPG and the Elite Encounters RPG (<- A Fabulous source of history and culture as it aligns with the Tourist beacons) it seems to be another dimension one traverses

So I have put together my own theory on the history and development of FTL which is probably wrong but I am trying to be self consistent.

MB we need you

Well that is my stock tangent on when the Megaship, Capital ship and Star port hyperdrives are debated on

---

Has there been anything in game or in Galnet about

Wreaken in Col 70, I forget, as I was looking for things outside the novels
I know there is the Megaship in the Permit locked system but where it "arrived before the permit" or not is unknown​

​

27Jan3303, Frank Heinrich is your friend!
http://ed.frank-heinrich.net/index....News:_Body_Found_at_Wreaken_Construction_Site

ties up with DW’s Premonition chapter 23

 

[Jorki Rasalas]

I actually think that a fourth spatial dimension is needed for any of this to work.

When you have two dots on a paper, you can bend it to get the dots closer together. This requires a third dimension to bent the paper in.

If you are to bend 3D space, one would think you need a fourth dimension to bend it in.

Traveling between the two dots on the paper does not get shorter unless you leave the plane(2D) of the paper. You have to go extra dimensional, no matter what approach you use.

Always struck me that you need 3 dimensions to bend the paper in, 4if you count time for the act of bending, but there are several theories around that allow for multiple dimensions beyond the ones we know

 

[Hanerib]

MB we need you

Agreed

 

[Anjin]

FSD drives are definitely supposed to be warp/space-compression drives as far as I understand.

So super-cruise would be utilising short-distance continuous compression and hyper-jumps large-distance single-shot compression.

/dons crackpot science hat

But what if that compression is relative? You could say your ship is traversing across compressed space, or you could say your ship is being stretched out over uncompressed space.

We could consider 'witch space' to actually be compressed 'normal space', or alternatively how we perceive 'normal space' when we are stretched out.

Objects in 'witch space' could be slightly out of phase and 'stretched out' over our reference frame of normal space. (Might explain all the weird things we see when jumping that we can't perceive in normal space.)

The Thargoids figured out a way to 'hover' in that state, where we only figured out how to briefly push through it.

/hat off

 

[ExoForce]

When you have two dots on a paper, you can bend it to get the dots closer together. This requires a third dimension to bent the paper in.

Traveling between the two dots on the paper does not get shorter unless you leave the plane(2D) of the paper. You have to go extra dimensional, no matter what approach you use.

Draw 2 dots on the shorter edges of the paper. Draw big X in the middle. Bend the paper with X inward to close 2 dots - our way.

Draw 2 dots on the shorter edges of the paper. Draw big X in the middle. Bend the paper with X outward. Now You need to punch through the paper to connect 2 dots - Thargoid way.


Simple! I really need a coffee. Now.
... was studying inward vs. inwards..

 

[Saool]

I actually think that a fourth spatial dimension is needed for any of this to work.

When you have two dots on a paper, you can bend it to get the dots closer together. This requires a third dimension to bent the paper in.

If you are to bend 3D space, one would think you need a fourth dimension to bend it in.

Traveling between the two dots on the paper does not get shorter unless you leave the plane(2D) of the paper. You have to go extra dimensional, no matter what approach you use.

The problem with all these ideas is that you need to fold space... all of it.

In the example of folding two points on a piece of paper together, you don't just fold those two points through a third dimension. You fold the whole piece of paper, and every point on it moves in some way. So, how can you fold two point in 3D space together without folding all space to make them meet? What are the repercussions to everywhere else in space, due to you folding it?

EDIT: I guess the question is, how flexible is space? It is rigid like paper, so that I have to flex it all to move any two points, or is it more elastic allowing me to move parts in some from of isolation? But even then, can it be total isolation? Surely every point in space is adjacent to another point? And won't those other points be effected?

 

[Thatchinho]

The problem with all these ideas is that you need to fold space... all of it.

In the example of folding two points on a piece of paper together, you don't just fold those two points through a third dimension. You fold the whole piece of paper, and every point on it moves in some way. So, how can you fold two point in 3D space together without folding all space to make them meet? What are the repercussions to everywhere else in space, due to you folding it?

EDIT: I guess the question is, how flexible is space? It is rigid like paper, so that I have to flex it all to move any two points, or is it more elastic allowing me to move parts in some from of isolation? But even then, can it be total isolation? Surely every point in space is adjacent to another point? And won't those other points be effected?

Well, the thing is that in the paper folding analogy, nothing on the paper is changing position (on the paper) relative to anything else. The only point where anything changes is the point(s) where the folded paper makes contact with itself. So in the frame of reference of anything which is part of the dimensions represented by the paper, no points are moved by the folding. So if you were a being living in those dimensions, as far as you're concerned, nothing would be moving (at least not due to the folding).

 

[Han_Zen]

Well, the thing is that in the paper folding analogy, nothing on the paper is changing position (on the paper) relative to anything else. The only point where anything changes is the point(s) where the folded paper makes contact with itself. So in the frame of reference of anything which is part of the dimensions represented by the paper, no points are moved by the folding. So if you were a being living in those dimensions, as far as you're concerned, nothing would be moving (at least not due to the folding).

That's correct. For a two dimensional being living on the paper, nothing moves. As long as the paper isn't elastic, you can fold it any way you like. it does not make a difference to the 2D plane of the paper.
The paper in the analogy is not a real paper. It has no thickness and it has no sides. If you manage to fold it in a way that makes two points touch, there is no need to 'punch thru' the paper. There is no thickness to punch thru.

 

[Anjin]

While the space between two points has been made relatively smaller, wouldn't you still have to traverse all of it, no matter how deformed it is?

Take a square kitchen sponge, now press your fingers in to it on opposite sides until they meet in the middle. Two points on the sides of the sponge have been compressed together, their distance reduced, while the rest of the sponge stays relatively undeformed. However, the amount of sponge between your fingertips hasn't changed.
If the sponge represents the lattice of space, you still have the same distance to traverse, it's just a 'denser' distance.

Or to put it back in the paper model: you can fold the paper up like a fan, but if you have to move across the surface of the paper to get anywhere, the amount of paper surface between the start point and end point is the same.

 

[ModishNouns]

Aren't you just saying "if I use a different analogy that breaks yours, your analogy is broken"?

 

[CMDR Ofan]

While the space between two points has been made relatively smaller, wouldn't you still have to traverse all of it, no matter how deformed it is?

Take a square kitchen sponge, now press your fingers in to it on opposite sides until they meet in the middle. Two points on the sides of the sponge have been compressed together, their distance reduced, while the rest of the sponge stays relatively undeformed. However, the amount of sponge between your fingertips hasn't changed.
If the sponge represents the lattice of space, you still have the same distance to traverse, it's just a 'denser' distance.

Or to put it back in the paper model: you can fold the paper up like a fan, but if you have to move across the surface of the paper to get anywhere, the amount of paper surface between the start point and end point is the same.

Think of it like 'metric folding' akin to the metric expansion the universe does. Another way to conceptualise is the way gravity folds and distorts space, you don't have further to go even though space is stretched it's just harder to get there.

Caveat; these are not direct analogies (in many regards it is nothing like it) just something help the thought process disengage from the everyday associations that make it harder to visualise.

 

[ExoForce]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive

 

[Anjin]

Caveat; these are not direct analogies (in many regards it is nothing like it) just something help the thought process disengage from the everyday associations that make it harder to visualise.

True. I think I was focusing too much on the analogy, and less on what it was meant to demonstrate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive

Ah yes, I forgot that with warp drives the ship itself doesn't move, but the bubble of space around it does, carrying the ship with it. That neatly skirts the around the problem.

 

[ExoForce]

Wasn't there 4th probe type in thargoid map? a.k.a butterfly? Somebody posted cleared picture with unidentified pictogram upper left corner IIRC. Cannot find a link or pic. Dont shoot, just asking in good faith.

 

[clavain]

That's correct. For a two dimensional being living on the paper, nothing moves. As long as the paper isn't elastic, you can fold it any way you like. it does not make a difference to the 2D plane of the paper.
The paper in the analogy is not a real paper. It has no thickness and it has no sides. If you manage to fold it in a way that makes two points touch, there is no need to 'punch thru' the paper. There is no thickness to punch thru.

That stops the dots from screaming too. Horrible noise as they die when you punch through. Keeps me awake at night in the Formidine Rift just thinking about it.

 

[Han_Zen]

That stops the dots from screaming too. Horrible noise as they die when you punch through. Keeps me awake at night in the Formidine Rift just thinking about it.

They still scream... You just can't hear it.