Alteration to wake scanning - You follow them no matter what their jump range?

[yodajedifishmaster]

Don't forget, the aggressor has to have a wake scanner fitted first.

Not many PvPers will give up a precious shield booster for that.

Then they have to scan it. In all likelihood, you would have reached your exit point by then.

Then they have to charge they FSD and jump. By this point, your cooldown will be done, and you could have either dropped out of SC, or get ready to jump again.

If you do jump again. And they catch a sniff of your wake, then the chase is on - this is known as gameplay.

Dropping out of SC after the jump, then performing a "stealth jump" is almost 100% guaranteed win.

I still like the idea - with limitations of course. Maybe just a maximum of 50% of the jump range again.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

in exchange for not complaining bitterly about your new exploit being added i want my Engineered FSD drives to have THEIR jump range doubled with the same fuel consumption per jump as before range doubling, in exchange for my silence.

 

[Vasious]

Magic range increase for following a player (that may be a friend)....

Makes a mockery of any compromises that the player being followed has had to make to achieve their jump range.

Yes, hyperspace has no resemblance to magic to begin with.

Oh a mockery is it?

Following some one thought their collapsing hyperspace could, at some risk, was lauded on the forums as a brilliant idea, but that is before we learn that it offends the feeling of Robert Maynard, which are clearly the most important thing is in the world universe.

Oh sallow egos, how could they ever accept any game option where they can focus on one area, and there never be any counter or opposing strategy to it, no, player choice must be sacrosanct, perfect, no counter, never never never never NVER NEVER NEVER NEVER ! NEVER!

 

[Riverside]

Yes, hyperspace has no resemblance to magic to begin with.

Oh a mockery is it?

Following some one thought their collapsing hyperspace could, at some risk, was lauded on the forums as a brilliant idea, but that is before we learn that it offends the feeling of Robert Maynard, which are clearly the most important thing is in the world universe.

Oh sallow egos, how could they ever accept any game option where they can focus on one area, and there never be any counter or opposing strategy to it, no, player choice must be sacrosanct, perfect, no counter, never never never never NVER NEVER NEVER NEVER ! NEVER!

Worst. Counterpoint. Ever.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Since a "wake" is little more than one end of an Einstein-Rosin bridge, it really shouldn't matter what ship creates it, as long as it's stable enough for another ship to follow, regardless of the FSD on the other ship - in fact, it might actually be easier for a following ship to simply "maintain" the bridge than to create it in the first place.

 

[kofeyh]

Rather than, essentially, rubbery jump-range on a wake scan - the better option imho is the ability to auto-jump with a wing, and have the same range, instead.

This means an escort ship, or a wing can all jump simultaneously and all ships form up and 'share' the warp bubble to simul-jump. This would solve just a ton of in-game issues. Anyone who's tried to escort another ship knows the pain of having less jump range, so they have to nav-lock to you, which then means if you are interdicted they have to be quick to remove the nav-lock, or get sucked into the same instance.

It's bass-ackwards imho. I'm not too interested in the ability to have magic legs that stretch whenever I scan a wake; I mean that's not really a problem to solve? You know where the target is going, if you scan the wake, so you can always chase; it looks like an answer to a question that doesn't exist.

But, if I am navlocked to a target, then the game could essentially trigger the jump count-down for the nav-locked leader, sync all the nav-locked clients and have us all jump at once. This would, imho, be a far better way to handle nav-lock; the inbuilt delay of having to chase down a nav-locked wake so the ship auto-jumps is just cumbersome. Just have everyone nav-locked to a parent ship sync up and jump en-masse.

One of the reasons traders typically don't have escorts (ignoring most are in solo) as an example, is that it's a pain in the butt to actually wing up and all jump at the same time, to the same place, and have the same jump range. Same for explorers, they have to nav-lock to the lowest denominator which actually puts them at more risk, not less. The mind boggles.

The first ship is punching the hole anyway; the remaining are essentially locking on to one end of the existing wake to jump, so why not just have it be simultaneous.

Also, before Robert Maynard tells me this is all cheating and what not (I <3 you guy, but I can see that eyebrow twitching already); if I can only do this when locked onto a player, which means I am part of a wing, and can't otherwise suddenly increase my range (despite materials making that argument partly invalid anyway) then I'm not really compromising a darned thing. [up]

 

[Schmack]

Isn't this what crews are supposed to be about? If they could get people on the same ship to jump together, that would be a feat.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Also, before Robert Maynard tells me this is all cheating and what not (I <3 you guy, but I can see that eyebrow twitching already); if I can only do this when locked onto a player, which means I am part of a wing, and can't otherwise suddenly increase my range (despite materials making that argument partly invalid anyway) then I'm not really compromising a darned thing. [up]

If Frontier want to introduce a new member of the tag team that's up to them - we already have DPS, Healer and Tank - why not go further and add a Strider to increase the jump-range of the other three in the Wing to levels that they could not achieve unaided....?

The stripped down AspX / DBX / Anaconda wouldn't be much good in the fight though - although an Anaconda would still be good for mass locking - bonus feature!

Found a relevant comment by Sandro on the subject of Wing drive slaving:

Hello Commander Pecisk!

We're actually pulling away from the idea of drive slaving, for a couple of reasons. Technically it's pretty treacherous. Also, we are grown a little cold on it's actual usage, looking at how the game is played. So, sorry, it's not on the cards. instead, we want to try and make it as obvious and easy as possible to understand where your wing is and how to get to them.

.... that's not to say that things might not have changed slightly since then though....

 

[MickyG1982]

Hmm,

Nice exploit there if you have a friend or ten in combat ships following an explorer vessel about the place.

Of course there is the trolling aspect too...

I'll let you follow me into a remote part of the galaxy then switch to solo & leave you there...

 

[Aashenfox]

While I don't support the idea for one of the reasons already stated (I invested heavily in my jump range at the cost of everything else, that's why I run and don't stand and fight, so your advantage to be able to follow me wherever I go in your combat equipped ship is patently not fair). However, I do want to complain about the naysayers who are coming up with arbitrary reasons to shoot the idea down... For example, the abliity to leave your pursuer stranded in a system...er, yeh, that would be an advantage, no? You're running away, he has the magic ability to follow you, but has to take the risk that you could leave him stranded, sounds balanced to me. Secondly, it contains no handwavium if you just use your imagination a bit. A ship jumping to another system creates a wake. You guys know you can use wakes in the sea to gain speed or at least accelerate a boat more efficiently, so it's hardly an idiotic idea that an existing wake is in and of itself some kind of slipstream and the second ship passing down the same path has less resistance (or is pulled along with the 'current' the previous ship created). Easily justifiable (and probably SHOULD be in the game), that when you follow someone's wake, you gain a little jump range. I would modify this concept to simply say that. "when you follow in someone's wake, you get a small boost due to supercruise slipstream, say a 10% boost. That might be enough to allow a pirate to catch a prey that is 'nearly' able to escape, and would not create such an unfair advantage as to cause the wing type scenarios already described, nor allow a FAS to keep up with my Exploring vessel. Compromise, see, it's easy!

Use your imaginations, this is a good idea in principle, just needed a little tweak.

 

[NeilF]

I like the idea too.

Maybe also do something like damage the FSD by x% for every LY over-range it goes too, for a bit of a downside. That way you could remove the distance limit, but if you jump say +50% beyond your base range your FSD would be quite badly damaged at the end (mitigation: AFMU).

This is growing on me. So when you've scanned a wake, if it exceeds your normal range is simply displays an indication of how much damage it will do to your FSD to follow it... eg:-

"FSD Distance Exceeded : Low Damage Expected"​

If you use the wake you get X% damage done to your FSD.

Hmm,

Nice exploit there if you have a friend or ten in combat ships following an explorer vessel about the place.

Two things here. There is the suggestion of a maximum limit. eg: If the wake is for a jump say 50-100% further than you could otherwise make, you can't use it.

And also kpmop's idea is nice. If you exceed your jump range, depending by how much more, your FSD is damaged accordingly. This alone means it's of limited use. ie: Can't be used over and over and over...

 

[Taimaru]

I don't like the idea. It removes the ability for one to escape, which is a valid tactic in a fight.

 

[Sylow]

Rather than, essentially, rubbery jump-range on a wake scan - the better option imho is the ability to auto-jump with a wing, and have the same range, instead.

This means an escort ship, or a wing can all jump simultaneously and all ships form up and 'share' the warp bubble to simul-jump. This would solve just a ton of in-game issues. Anyone who's tried to escort another ship knows the pain of having less jump range, so they have to nav-lock to you, which then means if you are interdicted they have to be quick to remove the nav-lock, or get sucked into the same instance.

It's bass-ackwards imho. I'm not too interested in the ability to have magic legs that stretch whenever I scan a wake; I mean that's not really a problem to solve? You know where the target is going, if you scan the wake, so you can always chase; it looks like an answer to a question that doesn't exist.

But, if I am navlocked to a target, then the game could essentially trigger the jump count-down for the nav-locked leader, sync all the nav-locked clients and have us all jump at once. This would, imho, be a far better way to handle nav-lock; the inbuilt delay of having to chase down a nav-locked wake so the ship auto-jumps is just cumbersome. Just have everyone nav-locked to a parent ship sync up and jump en-masse.

One of the reasons traders typically don't have escorts (ignoring most are in solo) as an example, is that it's a pain in the butt to actually wing up and all jump at the same time, to the same place, and have the same jump range. Same for explorers, they have to nav-lock to the lowest denominator which actually puts them at more risk, not less. The mind boggles.

The first ship is punching the hole anyway; the remaining are essentially locking on to one end of the existing wake to jump, so why not just have it be simultaneous.

Also, before Robert Maynard tells me this is all cheating and what not (I <3 you guy, but I can see that eyebrow twitching already); if I can only do this when locked onto a player, which means I am part of a wing, and can't otherwise suddenly increase my range (despite materials making that argument partly invalid anyway) then I'm not really compromising a darned thing. [up]

.
I very much agree here. Let ships in wing jump together, instead of the "one jumps, then the other ships somehow sniff at the wake signature and then decide to jump".
.
The ships are in a wing, when one powers up its FSD, it would just be logical that it transmits the same information to the other ships in the wing and all nav-locked ships start the FSD for the same jump.
.
The handwavium "same jump bubble" works for me, the alternative would be to give people in wing the option to plan routes based on the ship with the shortest jumprange. (This matters less than many people paint it to be. It would at the same time mean you're more fuel efficient, so while you do a few more jumps, you do less fuel scooping. The time impact is not that bad. )
.
As bonus, it would be helpful if a small indicator would be added to the wing display. I'd just put a tiny square there with the status:
- hollow: is not nav-locked.
- red: is nav locked but can not jump for some reason. (E.g. weapons deployed, mass locked... )
- yellow: is nav locked, but the destination you have selected is out of range for him. (Due to FSD range or fuel limitations. )
- green: is nav locked, can jump, destination is in reachable.
.
But that indicator would just be a bonus, not the core of the improvement.
.

 

[Jack Schitt]

Where did this idea originate that a high-energy wake is one end of a hyperspace tunnel? Isn't it just a distortion left behind, from which a destination can be derived using a wake scanner?

I'm not dismissing this entirely, it's just that nothing I've read suggests that this is the case in ED. AFAIK the only Elite game that has ever permitted a ship to use another ship's hyperspace "tunnel" was the unofficial remake Oolite.

 

[Requiem Mortis]

Where did this idea originate that a high-energy wake is one end of a hyperspace tunnel? Isn't it just a distortion left behind, from which a destination can be derived using a wake scanner?

I'm not dismissing this entirely, it's just that nothing I've read suggests that this is the case in ED. AFAIK the only Elite game that has ever permitted a ship to use another ship's hyperspace "tunnel" was the unofficial remake Oolite.

I don't think it has any basis in 'lore' but it's just us discussing a possible game feature and creating our own justification that suits our immersion.

 

[kofeyh]

Hmm,

Nice exploit there if you have a friend or ten in combat ships following an explorer vessel about the place.

Of course there is the trolling aspect too...

I'll let you follow me into a remote part of the galaxy then switch to solo & leave you there...

You know, people have said this sort of crap (and it is crap) since day one. If you do x, then y! It's really the worst form of logical fallacy. It's lost any meaning. Any. Meaning.

 

[Aashenfox]

Where did this idea originate that a high-energy wake is one end of a hyperspace tunnel? Isn't it just a distortion left behind, from which a destination can be derived using a wake scanner?

I'm not dismissing this entirely, it's just that nothing I've read suggests that this is the case in ED. AFAIK the only Elite game that has ever permitted a ship to use another ship's hyperspace "tunnel" was the unofficial remake Oolite.

I suppose you think the magic escape pod which is both invisible and faster than the fastest ship in the game by an infinite factor, DOES fit in with the lore and what we know about the galaxy. Sorry, but that's a weak reason to shoot down the best ideas for how this 'could' be justifiable. The lore can always be retconned in (technological improvements for example).

 

[c00ky1970]

I think the proposal is too complicated and subject to abuse.

Simpler solution, scan Wake, get destination, this wake entry is then in your transactions tab with a countdown (2mins or 5mins).

If you get top other system before countdown there will be a targetable high wake of the ship has since jumped which you can scan and then repeat process.

If you get there after timer then you don't get a follow on high wake to scan and your quarry is lost.

I would suggest that this is for high and low wake only, so if target drops from SC you can attempt to drop in as well (and maybe they have a few friends waiting for you)

This means long range jump ships can still evade, but they will need to jump about more than once (like shaking off your tail).

 

[Aashenfox]

I think the proposal is too complicated and subject to abuse.

Simpler solution, scan Wake, get destination, this wake entry is then in your transactions tab with a countdown (2mins or 5mins).

If you get top other system before countdown there will be a targetable high wake of the ship has since jumped which you can scan and then repeat process.

If you get there after timer then you don't get a follow on high wake to scan and your quarry is lost.

I would suggest that this is for high and low wake only, so if target drops from SC you can attempt to drop in as well (and maybe they have a few friends waiting for you)

This means long range jump ships can still evade, but they will need to jump about more than once (like shaking off your tail).

We've already moved on from the original proposal, it was obviously flawed for the simple reason that some people sacrifice everything on their ships for jump range, and to allow a combat equipped ship to 'easily' keep up with them would be downright unbalanced, I don't htink anyone would argue with that, so let's just think mitigation around that issue, or drop the idea completely.

/sarcasm on

But yeh, your idea is much simpler than just giving people a 10% boost to their range when following in another ship's wake.

/sarcasm off, no offence intended, just for comedic value, I do get what you mean.

 

[NeilF]

I think the proposal is too complicated and subject to abuse.

Too complicated as in the point and click of it?

Subject to abuse? You didn't list one thing?

Simpler solution, scan Wake, get destination, this wake entry is then in your transactions tab with a countdown (2mins or 5mins).

If you get top other system before countdown there will be a targetable high wake of the ship has since jumped which you can scan and then repeat process.

If you get there after timer then you don't get a follow on high wake to scan and your quarry is lost.

I would suggest that this is for high and low wake only, so if target drops from SC you can attempt to drop in as well (and maybe they have a few friends waiting for you)

This means long range jump ships can still evade, but they will need to jump about more than once (like shaking off your tail).

That sounds complicated... And, if you're having to fly 2-4 systems for each one your target is... Who's going to bother?

We've already moved on from the original proposal, it was obviously flawed for the simple reason that some people sacrifice everything on their ships for jump range, and to allow a combat equipped ship to 'easily' keep up with them would be downright unbalanced, I don't htink anyone would argue with that, so let's just think mitigation around that issue, or drop the idea completely.

/sarcasm on

But yeh, your idea is much simpler than just giving people a 10% boost to their range when following in another ship's wake.

/sarcasm off, no offence intended, just for comedic value, I do get what you mean.

"Easily keep up" with them in the sense?
1) You might need a specific utility to even achieve this?
2) You will receive a penalty such as FSD damage for exceeding your jump range? Doing an extreme jump a couple of times could be taking your FSD down to less than 50% for example?

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

If, Big if, we a wake pursuit system, it could really easily be balanced in many ways, previously stated (range boost limits, damage on exceeding said limits, etc), but you could also make it skill based.

If you want to follow your victim, you'd first need to scan the wake, and then line up with its trajectory, and make sure your distance is correct so your FSD countdown initiates within a very small range of the wake itself. This would take some time to achieve. And it would be even harder to pull off in supercruise.

Or something.