An essay to FDev:

[Agony_Aunt]

Then why is used so little? I myself used to enjoy it but finding a match took too long so I dropped it.

Well, my theory is that like me, while its enjoyable, the main game calls me more often than CQC to play. I suspect many who enjoy CQC but don't play often feel the same way.

Also part of the problem might be self-reinforcing. Its hard to get a game so people don't play. People don't play because its hard to get a game. This is one of the problems with automated matchmaking. At least you can now start games with just 2 people. Last time i tried got into games quickly.

 

[The Replicated Man]

I've bought cosmetics in the past based on "hope", assuming the game would get better and my bugs would be fixed with the next update. Never again!

Mr duck If only you knew how much I have spent on cosmetics.

Last time I checked it was well over $1000 CAD

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Nope, there was one guy who lost access to all his alt accounts. Others reported the loss of their accounts as well. You're possibly reading a different source to me.

Also, FD have this thing called shadowban, where as i understand it (i could be wrong), its not just solo, its everything you do is ignored by the BGS. Nothing you do contributes.

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/boy6d9/serious_cheating_in_elite_dangerous/

• First offense: 3-day ban to solo
• Second offense: 1-month ban to solo
• Third offense: Permaban to solo

To top it off, these actions are not enforced in a consistent manner:

Source: https://youtu.be/GMhn-pdRvGw?t=360

 

[Han Zulu]

Right, because after 6 years of apathy, FDev will surely start actively fixing their broken game now that someone asked them to...

This is why big games should never be made by small development teams. It’s clearly gotten away from them.

Size doesn't matter.

Star Citizien: 400 programmers, still not done after 7 years. Buggy. Incomplete.

Elite Dangerous: 100 programmers or less, multiple versions released in 7 years, but lotta bugs. Huge updates about every 2 years.

No Man's Sky: 6 programmers, multiple versions released in 3 years, some bugs but not quite as bad. Huge updates almost every year.

The truth is that number of developers is not a good correlation to production. Sometimes it's an inverse correlation because the problem arise of intercommunication, standards, and compatibility.

More programmers, more code and more bugs, but not necessarily more efficient. It's like cooking food. Too many cooks...

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrGrOK8oZG8

 

[Old Duck]

More programmers, more code and more bugs, but not necessarily more efficient. It's like cooking food. Too many cooks...

And not just at the same time, but over time. A programmer builds a lot of the foundation code and knows all the nuances of that code, but then he moves on and another takes his place who only understands the basic APIs, not the nuances of the code underneath, and that's how things slowly start to fall apart. One can argue this is more the fault of the first programmer than his replacement, since ideally APIs should "just work" without mastery of the nuances, but this is rarely the reality.

And then yet another lead developer comes in and decides to depreciate the "old" APIs and replace them with something he thinks is better, and soon you just have a big mess.

I know, I've been there, and I personally preferred working on smaller projects that I had more way more control over. The bigger projects where my code had to compensate for all the faults in other people's code, that was not so enjoyable.

 

[dubsdj]

Honestly I have lost all hopes...

Elite Dangerous is the only game in my life that still keep me playing after more than 1 year and over 850h.
It's the only game that I have been diligently following official forums & news from the Devs every day.

I dream of the day when FDev will wake up and involve us more in their decisions and development process like many other devs do...

It actually makes me sad to see how much salt they get on their Facebook page and livestreams...it's far more worst than SC & NMS.

This game is amazing (even with the bugs), FDev community team is awesome but the big guys up there should really re-think their way to interact with us.

Thing is if you look back to the days before forums and the www Internet there were absolute great games (Without any input from the community)
I think involving the community is good but I think there needs to be a limit to that or we get a Star Citizen which is just a huge jumble of everything.

They do listen. I said in a post the other day that a year or so ago I suggested megaship ferries that you could dock and they would move around the galaxy map. This has sort of started to happen so I'm assuming (Not taking any credit) but perhaps they listened to us!

 

[Han Zulu]

And not just at the same time, but over time. A programmer builds a lot of the foundation code and knows all the nuances of that code, but then he moves on and another takes his place who only understands the basic APIs, not the nuances of the code underneath, and that's how things slowly start to fall apart. One can argue this is more the fault of the first programmer than his replacement, since ideally APIs should "just work" without mastery of the nuances, but this is rarely the reality.

And then yet another lead developer comes in and decides to depreciate the "old" APIs and replace them with something he thinks is better, and soon you just have a big mess.

I know, I've been there, and I personally preferred working on smaller projects that I had more way more control over. The bigger projects where my code had to compensate for all the faults in other people's code, that was not so enjoyable.

+1000

Been there, have the T-shirt to prove it.

Had to teach one of my kids that there's no need to have unnecessary abbreviations of variables and database tables/columns. You have 50 TB HD and want to save 10 bytes by naming something SRVRCD instead of service_record? And the real cost comes later, about 3 months later, when you go back and have to remember what the heck the abbr. stood for. Is it "server CD"? Is it "Servo Remote Control Device"? What the heck is it? The 30 minutes extra to figure it out is a loss compared to the 1/3 seconds it took to write out. /anecdote

Perhaps Frontier is experiencing second/third generation of programmers. They don't know enough of the engine to dare to change core parts, and the original programmers have move on or don't remember the designs. Scariest thing as a programmer.

 

[Midian Cabal]

And not just at the same time, but over time. A programmer builds a lot of the foundation code and knows all the nuances of that code, but then he moves on and another takes his place who only understands the basic APIs, not the nuances of the code underneath, and that's how things slowly start to fall apart. One can argue this is more the fault of the first programmer than his replacement, since ideally APIs should "just work" without mastery of the nuances, but this is rarely the reality.

And then yet another lead developer comes in and decides to depreciate the "old" APIs and replace them with something he thinks is better, and soon you just have a big mess.

I know, I've been there, and I personally preferred working on smaller projects that I had more way more control over. The bigger projects where my code had to compensate for all the faults in other people's code, that was not so enjoyable.

There is only one person to blame: the manager in charge, because he can delegate everything except one thing - responsibility.

 

[firemane]

I am amazed as how the focal point of this this debacle seems to be the ability to change HUD colors.

It is like complaining about the alien mothership destroying your city because it is firing a gigantic cyan laser and you were told you couldn't have one in that color.

Spoiler: Like this...

 

[EUS]

I am amazed as how the focal point of this this debacle seems to be the ability to change HUD colors.

It is like complaining about the alien mothership destroying your city because it is firing a gigantic cyan laser and you were told you couldn't have one in that color.

Spoiler: Like this...

I find it hilarious.
"WAT?!? You can change your HUD colors?!?

 

[Han Zulu]

I am amazed as how the focal point of this this debacle seems to be the ability to change HUD colors.

It is like complaining about the alien mothership destroying your city because it is firing a gigantic cyan laser and you were told you couldn't have one in that color.

Cyan is OP. Fact of life. (OP as in "over powered," not "opening post/poster" The dangers of overlapping acronyms)

 

[Midian Cabal]

I find it hilarious.
"WAT?!? You can change your HUD colors?!?

I find it hilarious how PvPers are complaining about cheaters in p2p games.
Reminds me of people complaining about gankers in PvP games.

 

[Han Zulu]

There is only one person to blame: the manager in charge, because he can delegate everything except one thing - responsibility.

True. Somewhat. I think it's a combination of things. A good manager/leader is necessary, and a very good one can pull back a disaster, but sometimes I think it's the interrelationship between leaders of different levels (org structure) and the worker bees (developers, designers, etc). If the developers want to sink the ship, the leaders would have a hard time keeping it afloat. Anyway, most the blame would be on the leadership, for sure.

 

[Midian Cabal]

True. Somewhat. I think it's a combination of things. A good manager/leader is necessary, and a very good one can pull back a disaster, but sometimes I think it's the interrelationship between leaders of different levels (org structure) and the worker bees (developers, designers, etc). If the developers want to sink the ship, the leaders would have a hard time keeping it afloat. Anyway, most the blame would be on the leadership, for sure.

Gaming developers surely aren't in the industry because of good salary, no overtime, no stress and respect of the community. They're in the business because they enjoy doing what they're doing: develop games, and if you leave developers alone, you get a masterpiece like World of Warcraft.
The reason why games end up ty is because of incompetent managers and MBAs that start dictating development cycles. If the developers want to sink the ship, the leaders can (and should) always throw out bad apples, because otherwise they don't act in the best interest of the company.

 

[Han Zulu]

Gaming developers surely aren't in the industry because of good salary, no overtime, no stress and respect of the community. They're in the business because they enjoy doing what they're doing: develop games, and if you leave developers alone, you get a masterpiece like World of Warcraft.
The reason why games end up poopooty is because of incompetent managers and MBAs that start dictating development cycles. If the developers want to sink the ship, the leaders can (and should) always throw out bad apples, because otherwise they don't act in the best interest of the company.

You're right, but even so, I do believe the problem tend to be more complex to put blame on just a few. Sometimes it's just a systemic problem. Some companies that started to go bad, they put in a successful CEO, company still goes bad, crash and burn. Most of the time it's the leaders, agree, but I can't say if that's the case with Frontier and Elite. They do have some good games. I wonder if the blame is the Cobra engine and the challenge of maintaining it for so many different game styles? Just speculating.

 

[Midian Cabal]

You're right, but even so, I do believe the problem tend to be more complex to put blame on just a few. Sometimes it's just a systemic problem. Some companies that started to go bad, they put in a successful CEO, company still goes bad, crash and burn. Most of the time it's the leaders, agree, but I can't say if that's the case with Frontier and Elite. They do have some good games. I wonder if the blame is the Cobra engine and the challenge of maintaining it for so many different game styles? Just speculating.

My educated guess is: hundreds of thousands of spaghetti C++ code produced under heavy pressure, paired with poor (or just understaffed) QA.

 

[thistle]

FDEV has not been releasing AAA games for 25 years though and their developers do not have 25 years experience (you can see from the pictures the employees average age). Most of those are only niche games and developers still make rooki mistakes.

Really.

I started working as a programmer in 1995, so just under 25 years. Of the companies I worked for some still exist, some are no longer. But the developers in the ones that still exist look pretty much like Fdev's photos - most of the office are young people. The management level and top technical posts are generally older.

And Elite Dangerous is a niche title.

The fact Frontier is still going 25 years later is an achievement, down to the management and the quality of the staff over the life of the company. It's not to be sniffed at.

 

[Han Zulu]

My educated guess is: hundreds of thousands of spaghetti C++ code produced under heavy pressure, paired with poor (or just understaffed) QA.

Yeah. It's probably closer to the truth.

QA/QC is usually what lacks in all projects. Most companies like to shoot from the hip. We might be lucky. Just develop it and maybe there won't be many bugs. Hence the drive some years for "test driven development" strategies.

I remember one company I worked for, we didn't add a QA department until the project was in full go. A bit too late to fix core problems.

 

[Han Zulu]

Really.

I started working as a programmer in 1995, so just under 25 years. Of the companies I worked for some still exist, some are no longer. But the developers in the ones that still exist look pretty much like Fdev's photos - most of the office are young people. The management level and top technical posts are generally older.

And Elite Dangerous is a niche title.

The fact Frontier is still going 25 years later is an achievement, down to the management and the quality of the staff over the life of the company. It's not to be sniffed at.

Yeah. Age and experience doesn't necessarily mean anything. A mix is usually best. The young are eager and work hard (for fun), while the elders try to find the clever shortcuts so they can go home early and pour a bourbon.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

And not just at the same time, but over time. A programmer builds a lot of the foundation code and knows all the nuances of that code, but then he moves on and another takes his place who only understands the basic APIs, not the nuances of the code underneath, and that's how things slowly start to fall apart. One can argue this is more the fault of the first programmer than his replacement, since ideally APIs should "just work" without mastery of the nuances, but this is rarely the reality.

And then yet another lead developer comes in and decides to depreciate the "old" APIs and replace them with something he thinks is better, and soon you just have a big mess.

I know, I've been there, and I personally preferred working on smaller projects that I had more way more control over. The bigger projects where my code had to compensate for all the faults in other people's code, that was not so enjoyable.

This is exactly what the US Gov't/military is going through on an absolutely giant scale right now.
All the older programmers who know the birds nest/patchwork quilt inside and out have retired or abandoned ship.
Otoh, some of the kids they are hiring, brilliant and educated as they may be, simply aren't familiar with some of the older stuff they are tasked to work on.

Sounds like a nightmare.