An evening of combat logging with a surprise ending

[Schmack]

How is it an exploit?

The 15 second timer only exists in combat. The fact that it is there means 'quitting' during combat is fine, if you are prepared to risk 15 seconds of being a sitting duck. That capability exists in pretty much every other MMO/RPG I've ever played.

E: D is a game, not a competitive sport. If people choose not to be destroyed and lose hours of their gaming time and effort by using a feature of the game (the exit timer) then why is that a problem?

I wish people would stop painting anybody who doesn't want to PvP as a cheater / exploiter (and not because I feel personally aggrieved, I play exclusively in Mobius). It's not helping the discussion.

The problem here is poor game mechanics where piracy/security/player bounty hunting is concerned, which is overly punitive towards traders, offering no protection, and frustrating and un-rewarding to pirates. FD need to fix the core game mechanics, not add some silly 15 minute timer that others have suggested.

How it's an exploit: It takes advantage of game instance mechanics to basically shuffle through the deck until you get the cards you want instead of playing the hand you're dealt. It's an exploit, just as the shield recharge in SC was an exploit and people use it as such. If you're able to maximize your profits by resetting the instance over and over while remaining in the asteroid field, that's an exploit.

I don't play PvP but I don't play open. Don't play open if you don't want PvP, because open is where PvP happens. Otherwise, just play solo or group, because it's the same galaxy either way, and that's how you ensure you're not being bothered by other players. It's like going to a movie theater and saying you don't want to be in the room with other people. Watch at home, same movie.

 

[Ixnatifual]

Players who currently play the game as intended by accepting death by not combat logging are second-class citizens in this game. It's not good when the optimal way to play a game is to quit it.

It's entirely logical to combat log for the individual. You save a lot of credits in an easy manner and there are no downsides. Of course the game as a whole suffers as danger and PvP are invalidated- completely the opposite of the intended design. The design of the game here is completely out of touch with what its technical architecture supports. It's stupid and interesting that Frontier yet have done nothing about it.

Maybe they have no idea how to solve it. I suppose one solution is to remove any penalties for death so people won't bother quitting. Boring, but at least it puts players playing the game as intended on the same level as everyone else. And everyone else avoids the nuisance of having to reboot the game when they get in trouble.

 

[Sidey]

Some of the posts on here are beyond pathetic.

Most of the arguments on here seem to come down to this:

Anti-combat logging:
Its unsporting.
It takes away rewards from shooting down the ship in terms of bounty.
It has a negative effect on immersion (oops) and player experience.

Those who are pro and those who are neutral apparently
If the person combat logs they have admitted defeat and so you win anyway and so its all good.
It minimises the victims loss because perhaps he didnt want to PvP and you forced your playstyle on him.
It "griefs" the "griefer" and so its all wonderful.

Such a mismatch in logic will never be reconciled. Im not a pvper or a pirate but I cannot fathom the mind of a person that argues for combat logging, because I am competitive by nature. Those who argue that it is inconsequential are de facto arguing for it because they are suggesting that no negative consequence comes of it and so therefore it is no problem. If the issue is not a problem then there is nothing wrong with it.

People seem to have some inflated idea of what Elite Dangerous is about and what it is meant to be about. The PvErs say that it is for PvE and coop with PvP support. The PvPers say that its PvP with PvE and coop support. Both groups claim to be the most important. The funny thing is whether PvE or PvP is the focus is irrelevant. PvP exists, and PvE exists. If someone is unwilling to accept or deal with this aspect of the game then they should either play solo, or find a game with aspects they do agree to. Cheating in an online game is simply pathetic. I personally dont play online simply because Im one of the ones who sees no benefit to multiplayer at all in ED and wanted a complete offline mode and proper singleplayer experience.

Lastly PvErs are very quick to moan about griefing. Cheating is probably the most obvious and blatent form of griefing there is. Absolutely love hypocrisy, especially when they sit there saying how the PvPers only want it their way and QQ about it. It takes irony to a whole new level when you see such ludicrous hypocrisy from those accusing others. Quite laughable.

My opinion: Suck it up and dont cry. Dont cheat as its pathetic, play within the mechanics. If someone upsets you shoot him to crap. If someone beats you, practice, get better, and beat them. If you cant beat them fair, then be clever about it, outnumber them and gank them. ED was never supposed to be happy unicorn land. The pirates can give it out they can take it.

 

[scorpyon]

So judging by your post and the points you have made that puts you in the 'apparent neutral' pot that you stated yes?
Which means you are according to your own words pro-combat logging.
And again accoring to your own words therefore are pro-cheating?

I dont think you're going to find many friends here in that frame of mind.

I mean obviously you vant be anti-combat logging because by your own generalisation neutral people cant fit into that category.

Unless you want to claim your post is not neutral in which case thats the biggest hypocritcal post I've seen on this thread yet. Which is rather impressive.

 

[Sidey]

I cant be bothered to quote my own post.

I thought it was fairly clear. I put my opinion at the end where I quite clearly said "dont cheat". The rest of it is just mostly observations. You'll have to explain where the hypocrisy comes in as ive obviously missed it.

 

[Wartface]

My opinion: Suck it up and dont cry. Dont cheat as its pathetic, play within the mechanics. If someone upsets you shoot him to crap. If someone beats you, practice, get better, and beat them. If you cant beat them fair, then be clever about it, outnumber them and gank them. ED was never supposed to be happy unicorn land. The pirates can give it out they can take it.

I cant be bothered to quote my own post.

I thought it was fairly clear. I put my opinion at the end where I quite clearly said "dont cheat". The rest of it is just mostly observations. You'll have to explain where the hypocrisy comes in as ive obviously missed it.

I've read both your comments twice and have come to the following conclusion; neither of what you've said is "clear" or "obvious". I concur with Scorpyon's view in that I too put you in the 'neutral' camp in relation to combat logging.

You say "don't cheat" but also say "suck it up and don't cry" in relation to combat logging, this is where there is perceived hypocrisy.

 

[Sidey]

I made 3 points in my post, I will summarise incase I have written them in a way which makes the meaning unclear.

A "neutral" viewpoint on combat logging is a fallacy, because this implies there is no problem with it.
PvE and PvP are both part of the game, as such both camps need to contend with dealing with the other.
Cheating is a blatent form of griefing and many PvE advocates frequently demonise PvPers as griefers, but also claim that cheating (via combat logging) is acceptable.


The specific point that you mentioned I shall also rephrase to be clearer.

If you get shot down suck it up and dont cry about it.
Dont cheat, play within the mechanics.


I trust that has cleared up any misunderstanding...

 

[scorpyon]

A "neutral" viewpoint on combat logging is a fallacy, because this implies there is no problem with it.
..

I have to respectfully disagree with this. You can easily be neutral on the issue without 'supporting' it. Oterwise you wouldnt be neutral.

Being neutral about this is basically saying that there may or may not be a problem with it but it so far hasnt had a direct impact on my game. Theres nothing wrong with that.

Explorers for example might be a great example of this. CL likely doesnt affect their gameplay in the slightest so they may not care about it either way. They dont feel strongly enough on the issue to be for or against it.

This doesnt mean they automatically must support it just because they are not against it.

Now as for me, I havent had someone CL in a fight and I've never done it either. So its not caused me directly any problem. But I know its upset others as well. That said, I dont see a physical reward impact on the game other than some hurt pride. ( put in the politest wy possible )

So While I think combat logging is pretty cowardly and ai'm very against it, I also think that the rage that some spread about the issue is also incredibly childish and unwarranted because they didnt lose anything tangible and they are just crying about some injustice they put upon themselves.

But again, thats just my neutral opinion garnered by reading so many over the top posts raging about what is essentially a non-issue (in my mind currently).

That doesnt mean being 'for' CL in the slightest. Its like people who say that if you dont believe in feminism you are obviously a mysoginist. It doesnt work that way.

 

[Sidey]

So While I think combat logging is pretty cowardly and ai'm very against it, I also think that the rage that some spread about the issue is also incredibly childish and unwarranted because they didnt lose anything tangible and they are just crying about some injustice they put upon themselves.

I don't want to take this sentence out of context of your post but I want to highlight it.

I would argue that this is then turning into a semantics debate because I disagree about your definition of being neutral on the issue. I would argue that instead of being "neutral" you simply don't particularly care. It doesn't affect you, and thus its not a big deal. This is not a neutral position, it is abstaining from taking a position.

However, you do go on to say that the act of combat logging is not good and that you are against it. So, based on what you have said I would say that you are against combat logging, but its not an issue you feel is of much importance and you don't really care about it.

As mentioned, I disagree with defining this as "neutral" on the issue, but this is clearly just semantics now so I just propose we all move on.


As for whether it is worthy of the rage it receives, that is very much a personal opinion. As a competitive person any form of cheating is a big no go for me. Taking away the victory in a situation such as this is almost tantamount to playing a game of tennis, and on the final winning point from a commanding position having the opponent simply walk off the court. On a personal level I view that as one of the worst things my opponent could do as it in effect denies my victory. Am I the better tennis player? Today I was. Did I win the match? No, my opponent forfeited. Very frustrating.

Im sure that whilst there are many who do not view combat logging in the same way, there are probably quite a few who do.

 

[Schmack]

Some of the posts on here are beyond pathetic.

Most of the arguments on here seem to come down to this:

Anti-combat logging:
Its unsporting.
It takes away rewards from shooting down the ship in terms of bounty.
It has a negative effect on immersion (oops) and player experience.

Those who are pro and those who are neutral apparently
If the person combat logs they have admitted defeat and so you win anyway and so its all good.
It minimises the victims loss because perhaps he didnt want to PvP and you forced your playstyle on him.
It "griefs" the "griefer" and so its all wonderful.

Such a mismatch in logic will never be reconciled. Im not a pvper or a pirate but I cannot fathom the mind of a person that argues for combat logging, because I am competitive by nature. Those who argue that it is inconsequential are de facto arguing for it because they are suggesting that no negative consequence comes of it and so therefore it is no problem. If the issue is not a problem then there is nothing wrong with it.

People seem to have some inflated idea of what Elite Dangerous is about and what it is meant to be about. The PvErs say that it is for PvE and coop with PvP support. The PvPers say that its PvP with PvE and coop support. Both groups claim to be the most important. The funny thing is whether PvE or PvP is the focus is irrelevant. PvP exists, and PvE exists. If someone is unwilling to accept or deal with this aspect of the game then they should either play solo, or find a game with aspects they do agree to. Cheating in an online game is simply pathetic. I personally dont play online simply because Im one of the ones who sees no benefit to multiplayer at all in ED and wanted a complete offline mode and proper singleplayer experience.

Lastly PvErs are very quick to moan about griefing. Cheating is probably the most obvious and blatent form of griefing there is. Absolutely love hypocrisy, especially when they sit there saying how the PvPers only want it their way and QQ about it. It takes irony to a whole new level when you see such ludicrous hypocrisy from those accusing others. Quite laughable.

My opinion: Suck it up and dont cry. Dont cheat as its pathetic, play within the mechanics. If someone upsets you shoot him to crap. If someone beats you, practice, get better, and beat them. If you cant beat them fair, then be clever about it, outnumber them and gank them. ED was never supposed to be happy unicorn land. The pirates can give it out they can take it.

Did you really need to say all that just to say "stop whining"? Coming into a thread dedicated to a topic to tell people to drop it is as pathetic as anything you've mentioned, even if I agree with you.

- - - Updated - - -

I made 3 points in my post, I will summarise incase I have written them in a way which makes the meaning unclear.

A "neutral" viewpoint on combat logging is a fallacy, because this implies there is no problem with it.
PvE and PvP are both part of the game, as such both camps need to contend with dealing with the other.
Cheating is a blatent form of griefing and many PvE advocates frequently demonise PvPers as griefers, but also claim that cheating (via combat logging) is acceptable.


The specific point that you mentioned I shall also rephrase to be clearer.

If you get shot down suck it up and dont cry about it.
Dont cheat, play within the mechanics.


I trust that has cleared up any misunderstanding...

You're not addressing combat logging. You're addressing people who are addressing combat logging. Whether or not the person making the point is a hypocrite or not has no bearing on the validity of their point.

 

[GJ51]

I'm not a Combat Logger.

After following all this for quite some time, it's obvious that FD has no control over their own game. They are so losing credibility over this and so many other issues, it's become a major cause for concern.

If there's not automated sanction for monitoring and penalizing Combat Logging, it will only be a matter of time before avid PvP ers just get tired of doing all the heavy lifting for FD and just stop bothering to report all but the most egregious offenders.

In essence it becomes one of just another example of unequal/unfair policy enforcement by FD - no different than selectively restoring players losses during normal mistakes made during game play. "I lost my ship and cargo please give me everything back" and FD says, "Sure thing, you asked very nicely, we like you." The next player does the same thing but rants and FD denies the request saying sorry we can't do that.

In similar fashion, the decision, which they repeatedly confirm will stand, to allow switching back and forth between Solo, Group, and Open play is not an exploit and everything you do in any mode affects both of the other modes and you can hop back and forth to your advantage. So many players go to Solo to grind the credits they need so they can outfit their fighters and hop back to Open and do PvP faster and with better gear. Not an exploit - endorsed game play.

Although I don't like or agree with combat logging, how do you make this a special case different from the ways most players are taking advantage of the other flaws in the game design? I have no problem with different game modes, I think that's great, but being able to carry your accomplishment and earnings and ships from one mode to another is just non-sensical and in my mind, just as harmful to the game, if not more so, than combat logging.

Why is one act an endorse activity, and the other isn't?

Public outcry?

That's why I don't care about the issue one way or the other anymore.

There are so many loopholes, exploits, and cheats that FD seems to no longer have any control over that it's just a waste of time worrying about it.

Sad