Well that's good news, I seem to remember one the things just before the module wipe was a comedy "they'll never dare punish me" bit of hubris. I agree the everyone excuse doesn't wash with me either, but it does definitely seem to be a popular view in relation to some cheats but not others.
PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2
- Thread starter Rinzler o7o7o7
- Start date
Well that's good news, I seem to remember one the things just before the module wipe was a comedy "they'll never dare punish me" bit of hubris. I agree the everyone excuse doesn't wash with me either, but it does definitely seem to be a popular view in relation to some cheats but not others.
You think ?, clogging means someone doesn't get to see an explosion and the clogger skips a rebuy worth no more than exploiting some space-cash. Not really in the same league as exploiting god modules in secret for months whilst telling legit players to "git-gud".
And frankly the thought that the 5-1 exploiters don't all clog is hilarious.
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Goose4291
Banned
Except there is a major difference Stig.
Frontier with the exception of one time have never come out and declared the money tricks as cheating/exploiting worthy of a punitive measures, whereas they have said countless times that combat logging is exploitative and cheating, worthy of punishment.
And thats without going into how credit exploits (particularly pre engineer ones) were similarly about gaining the artifical upper hand over a player.
Everyone's entitled to their opinion (even FDEV), I think cloggings trivial primarily because it's just an incompetent players version of high-waking out of trouble. If they plug clogging completely this moan fest becomes menu-logging is bad, then high-wake is bad then having longer jumprange than me is bad, then outrunning me in a faster ship is bad. It's never ending, so from my perspective of PVP is optional as in you have to want to fight to the death to fight to the death it's not even worth starting.
Now I acknowledge that FDEV have an opinion on it but as far as I'm concerned they've spent the last three years proving they don't really deal with low level cheating/griefing at all so it's just pointless noise (they do rightly ban hackers). They're like a replacement teacher who's lost control of the class.
Eh, there's already people complaining that high-waking is "cheating," no matter how many times FDev and even other PvPers, including the OP say it's not.
5-1 exploit :
- less rebuy : no
- unfair rebuys for non-cheats : Not really,what have change since this exploit is over ?(hint : nothing)- gained rank : at engineer only yes
- gained permits : no
- accessed engineers : no but unlocking the engineer invitation : yes
- effect on the BGS : NONE
Clogging exploit :
- less rebuy : absolutely
- unfair rebuys for non-cheats : absolutely
- gained rank : yes, by avoiding destruction you can continue to grind your rank
- gained permits : yes, by avoiding destruction you can continue to grind your permits
- accessed engineers : yes, by avoiding destruction you can continue to unlock the engineer
- effect on the BGS : yes, by avoiding destruction you can continue to impact the BGS by completing your missions etc...
So yes, those exploit are not in the same league, Cloggin being way worst because it impact 100% of the game and modes.
Remember combat loggin is not exclusive to PvP : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/105778-“Combat-Logging”-Update
Assumption without any solid proof as usual...
Cheaters cheat and they cheat any way they can until stopped, legit players don't.
Exactly my point, the issue is some players want a PVP centric game without being willing to just play CQC. In open you only need to fight if you feel like it, it's never going to be a compulsory thing so that itch is never likely to be scratched.
I sports you will usually lose the match if you cheat, even if it didn't affect the result. Win the match 5-0 but one guy fails the drug test and you lose.
By this logic both 5-1 exploiters and cloggers should be pinned with the rebuy in all affected fights.
I am so happy to be a legit player then! [yesnod]
For the last time Devari, I have not ever suggested that this is not an issue encountered by players. I am disputing your claim that this is the majority experience. Suggesting that this is an issue that is as debilitating to the playerbase as you claim is the thing that is absurd. I see you skirted around my question of how can you know whether for every 1 bug report there aren't 2 players having an acceptably stable experience? We'll get to that later.
Have you?
Who said I haven't heard of or experienced issues? I said the frequency is not as common for me and players I regularly play with as it is for you and the bug reports you read. Neither one of us has the undisputed facts that would suggest which of ours is the more common experience. It's just that you are the fellow arrogant enough to claim that you are right and everyone else is wrong based on nothing but assumtions and your own opinion.
I never claimed a "wing of 30" go back and re-read my post before inventing things. You do know you can put 30 people into the same instance right? Please don't attempt to act smarter about a mechanic that you clearly have little knowledge of.
Neither are you monitoring all those people who submit a bug report. I am at least closer to the players in my sample group as we talk on Discord and discuss things about the game including connection issues.
Indeed. This does not change anything in my previous post.
Cool, and I am telling you my experiences based on all information I have available.
How many times are you going to attempt to put words in my posts? I am not pretending these issues do not exist. I am telling you they are not as severre for everyone as you claim they are.
No it shouldn't. Just the rather hyperbolic claims I can disprove with a simple recount of my own experiences. Here I can see you completely ignored the question I posed to you. Can you, the person who claims the MAJORITY has the severity of problems that you experience; confirm whether for every one bug report there are not at least 2 players not encountering the level of severity of those issues? Because if you cannot then you need to admit that you do not know what the majority of player's experience is.
Whether your personal experience matches a bunch of bug reports is also irrelevant when you try to tell us that all of our experiences match yours. You don't know the majority experience of the playerbase, it's time to climb down from your ego driven high horse and admit this fact.
The skimmer bug and NPC ramming is completely irrelevant to the discussion of connection issues.
It seems that some of you want to constantly shift the conversation away from the OP's original point: Fdev doesn't appear to be doing anything about clogging, even with flagrant examples.
Guys, it doesn't matter if there are other forms of exploitation out there, such as the 5/1 exploit, it doesn't stop this from being a serious issue. Quit trying to equivocate; at best it makes you look like an apologist, at worst it makes you look like you're holding on for dear life to one of your most coveted feature sets. I don't expect Fdev to just willy nilly start banning people (for all the very good reasons brought up in this thread and others) but I certainly do feel like some kind of action such as a strongly worded advisory from support letting the recipient know that they were on notice would be at the very least a completely reasonable expectation from us mere mortals who don't understand all of Frontiers "secret" methods of cheat detection. The bottom line here is that it doesn't appear that Fdev is doing (literally) anything to prevent or punish or otherwise discourage outright cheating via clogging, and that's the problem.
I would have sympathy for their position and the inherent difficulties associated with detecting these people if at the very least people who were chronically disconnecting for "reasons" were receiving notices of some kind.
The impression that Fdev does nothing to prevent this issue is a solid one, backed up with enough evidence to confirm to the average person of reasonable intelligence that it's pretty much the state of the union with no changes in sight.
Guys, it doesn't matter if there are other forms of exploitation out there, such as the 5/1 exploit, it doesn't stop this from being a serious issue. Quit trying to equivocate; at best it makes you look like an apologist, at worst it makes you look like you're holding on for dear life to one of your most coveted feature sets. I don't expect Fdev to just willy nilly start banning people (for all the very good reasons brought up in this thread and others) but I certainly do feel like some kind of action such as a strongly worded advisory from support letting the recipient know that they were on notice would be at the very least a completely reasonable expectation from us mere mortals who don't understand all of Frontiers "secret" methods of cheat detection. The bottom line here is that it doesn't appear that Fdev is doing (literally) anything to prevent or punish or otherwise discourage outright cheating via clogging, and that's the problem.
I would have sympathy for their position and the inherent difficulties associated with detecting these people if at the very least people who were chronically disconnecting for "reasons" were receiving notices of some kind.
The impression that Fdev does nothing to prevent this issue is a solid one, backed up with enough evidence to confirm to the average person of reasonable intelligence that it's pretty much the state of the union with no changes in sight.
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there was this which was made public -
https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...m_marked_as_a_combat_logger_because_frontier/
I imagine generally speaking anyone banned/ reprimanded for anything - is unlikely to post publicly about it (unless feeling hard done by)
https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...m_marked_as_a_combat_logger_because_frontier/
I imagine generally speaking anyone banned/ reprimanded for anything - is unlikely to post publicly about it (unless feeling hard done by)
So what you wrote "Cheaters cheat and they cheat any way they can until stopped, legit players don't." regarding "And frankly the thought that the 5-1 exploiters don't all clog is hilarious." does not make sense then because i never combat logged and i am not cheating.
Also remember this : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/358986-Community-Update-Engineer-Exploit-Action-Taken (exploited modules does not exist anymore)
The feeling of being a legit player is even better!
Let's go back to the topic : Combat logging is a major cheat issue that have to be fixed!
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Not really Jason I agree FDEV are not doing enough about cheats and cheating, of which clogging is just one minor example. If they get tough on it to the point of account bans as they currently do for hackers I will support them (and be very surprised).
Now if the issue is around cheat detection difficulties with clogging but we both think they need to set a harsh example as a deterrent, why not start with the 5-1 cheats they were already successfully identified months ago.
More power to their elbow.
Cheating is dishonest, like telling fibs. Again it's a you do or you don't thing.
Well said
People do like to derail topics such as this - we can all guess why - and it is depressing that despite such blatant evidence the account in question didn't so much as get an email saying "hey you really need to look at your possible connection issues because people think you are cheating" It seems the devs are only interested in stopping cheating if it's performed by "undesirable pvp players"
They've basically greenlit cheating by everyone else!
Just like the 2.4 beta, Sandro was warned the "tweaks" to the C&P system had a huge loophole for combat loggers who log v NPCs, yet he went ahead with it anyway!
Quite simply I don't think they care. At all. They'd rather shovel us some new skins!
The reason FDEV can't particularly do much about combat logging right now, is because they've painted themselves into a corner - they created a game world in which indiscriminate and out of context player ganking and killing can occur, something which might be a significant cause of players combat logging.
Also, jasonbarron, you can't consider combat logging in isolation, due to the above. One can/might be a significant cause and consequence of the other. Then what might happen is more players intensify their ganking/indiscriminate player killing, and both feed off each other.
Ergo - you can't simply go after combat logging without also trying to curtail ganking/indiscriminate/out of context player killing.
Frontier have already stated they are introducing/working on Crime & Punishment measures AND Karma - this means they are already undertaking a coding exercise in order to at least attempt to handle BOTH combat logging AND ganking/indiscriminate/out of context player killing, so I'm puzzled as to why there's been a quite obvious campaign in the last couple of weeks just on the subject of combat logging.
It's almost as if it's another forum meta-game perpetrated by folks who fully understand that Frontier are already working on combat logging AND ganking/indiscriminate/out of context player killing, but just want to somehow put more pressure on Frontier regardless.
Also, jasonbarron, you can't consider combat logging in isolation, due to the above. One can/might be a significant cause and consequence of the other. Then what might happen is more players intensify their ganking/indiscriminate player killing, and both feed off each other.
Ergo - you can't simply go after combat logging without also trying to curtail ganking/indiscriminate/out of context player killing.
Frontier have already stated they are introducing/working on Crime & Punishment measures AND Karma - this means they are already undertaking a coding exercise in order to at least attempt to handle BOTH combat logging AND ganking/indiscriminate/out of context player killing, so I'm puzzled as to why there's been a quite obvious campaign in the last couple of weeks just on the subject of combat logging.
It's almost as if it's another forum meta-game perpetrated by folks who fully understand that Frontier are already working on combat logging AND ganking/indiscriminate/out of context player killing, but just want to somehow put more pressure on Frontier regardless.
You nailed it here with this post. "They've basically greenlit cheating by everyone else" and "only stopping cheating if its from undesirable PvPers" are spot on.