He's not condoning clogging nobody is, he's saying it's a problem along with (real) griefing which may actually be a contributing factor to clogging as opposed to any attempt at justification. Luckily both things are being targeted by the all new karma system so fingers crossed both will decrease.
PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2
- Thread starter Rinzler o7o7o7
- Start date
He's not condoning clogging nobody is, he's saying it's a problem along with (real) griefing which may actually be a contributing factor to clogging as opposed to any attempt at justification. Luckily both things are being targeted by the all new karma system so fingers crossed both will decrease.
It's no cheating. I speak not about Alt-F4. I speak about ending the game with the official shutdown functionality and a wait for about 15 seconds in combat situations. It's the use of an official function. And it works like intended as you see with the 15 sec waiting time. Th DEV's thought about it and brought his function (waiting time) to the game. Perhaps YOU see it as a cheat. I don't see it in this way!
I think Dear Mr. Jason is very much arguing it can and should be.
Griefing/murder=playstyle many here don't like with inadequate in-game repercussions that are being developed.
CLing=active cheating. Against rules.
If we are going to postpone the enforcement of FD's rules and terms of service due to aspects of the game that aren't developed, then hell, someone send me the link for some shield hax and I'll get on it for the next ten years
Cheating is cheating, end of - there's no excuse for it, regardless of playstyle preference, and it should be moderated. If you don't think murder should be a legitimate playstyle, then FD are the better folks to bring it up with; but FD have said up until now it's entirely legitimate. Remember that no matter your distaste for them nasty griefors, there are a number of them nasty griefors that think your playstyle is invalid: it's easy to lose sight of being objective.
That's outside the scope of this thread mate.
While I have issues with the implementation of the menu log from both sides, OP specifically refers to explicit rulebreaking, i.e. task killing or "alt f4" as you refer to it.
Last edited:
The 15 second timeout has technically no merit to this conversation. Combat logging is generally the term used for people who completely close the game out in the middle of a combat scenario. Although I’m not sure your argument of logging with the 15 second countdown in the middle of combat to save your rebuy as “not cheating” would be very valid but this is just my opionion. Maybe FDev did put that there for that purpose but it doesn’t make you any less of the problem if you do it tonplayers that is. I honestly could care less if people are doing it to npc. Also with that line of thinking none of my 7 Cutters would eve get killed. I can garuntee that all of them would take longer the 15 seconds to die so therefore your technically saying that I don’t ever have to die again. Trust me man. That doesn’t work.
I think Dear Mr. Jason is very much arguing it can and should be.
Griefing/murder=playstyle many here don't like with inadequate in-game repercussions that are being developed.
CLing=active cheating. Against rules.
If we are going to postpone the enforcement of FD's rules and terms of service due to aspects of the game that aren't developed, then hell, someone send me the link for some shield hax and I'll get on it for the next ten years
Cheating is cheating, end of - there's no excuse for it, regardless of playstyle preference, and it should be moderated.
I’m saying its already happening that way. Grievers first then dashboarders.
Last edited:
Read the first post, where OP makes a distinction between the two. Don't just jump in like so many.
And I am saying that it absolutely should not be that way, and the premise of OP is to argue very much the same.
Is it acceptable for me to hack FD servers to change influence figures or use shield hacks because I don't like PvE players influencing everything from shadows? Is it acceptable for me to throw racial insults in-game because I think haulage traders are boring?
Cheating/rulebreaking should be moderated, no "later", no "ifs", no "buts". If people have a problem with something legitimate, that needs to be a suggestion.
Well we aren’t getting anywhere with actually suggestion fixes but we are doing well to point out the problems. I wish we could have a perfect world where everyone gets exactly what they want but at the end of the day this isnt a perfect world and some of us won’t get anything out of the deal but I will still be here playing the game. FDev has made a great game with some very unique issues that other developers couldn’t even dream of. Let’s just continue to work with them and one day this will be solved.
Last edited:
I agree with some of that, a big difference being as much as I dislike greifing and have been as much as anyone else, it's intended in game stuff. Combat logging is not intended, is considered cheating, and FDev aren't doing anything about it, unlike greifing and crime and punishment which they are overtly putting heaps of time in to.
Last edited:
Cheating is not a unique problem and other developers deal with it on a regular basis.
I appreciate you have personal feelings about grieforing here, but again...this cannot be swept under the rug. Cheating is cheating and should be punished, end of, no questions.
If it helps put it in perspective, this is not a "stop mah seals getting away from me" thread. The thread has made reference to at least one serial murderer that uses CLing to escape death regularly; whether ye believe it or not, many proposals from PvP folk are well-rounded, and often look to improve player-administered crime and punishment for example. Most of the more reasonable PvP folk are desperate for a proper PvP bounty hunting system.
It is pure and simply about preventing people break rules that were introduced for a good reason, whether you're cognizant of the implications of that rule or not.
Last edited:
Its just how it works. You fix a problem by starting at the base of the problem and there are other bases to this problem, don’t get me wrong. I just personally think the biggest is that of the mentaility that this game was built to only kill ships in space. The game is more then that and therefore takes some new and otherwise un-thought of trick to fix this issue. Appreciate the good talk everyone. I do have to get off of here now because I’m at work. Hope you all have a good day and fly safe CMDRs.
Lets wait for the result of C&P before we start claiming FD is doing something [well spotted mods!] about griefing. On the other hand, if the C&P is successful and decreases the amount of griefing (remains to be seen) the result could also be a decrease in CLing. So perhaps FD is reasoning one impacts the other and C&P would be beneficial to both problems.
All very crystal ball mind you, nothing concrete here.
Last edited:
Answered it yourself mate, as I suggested earlier. You think. Personal opinion does not get involved with rule breaking.
As above, resolving CLing is very much a part of moderating murder anyway. How can you otherwise administer punishment to competent player murderers when we refuse to have competent NPCs?
Either way, have yerself a good day too mate
I feel like everyone is reading me wrong on here today. This shouldn’t be pushed under the rug and I never said that. There is however an order how to fix problem. Let’s compare it to changing the brakes on a car. You have to replace you brakes. Your idea is to just take the brakes right off however I know that the wheel needs to be taken off before we can take the brakes off. It is literally just the order of how this logically has to be played so FDev doesn’t risk losing more players over this issue. And that’s on both sides. Geeze I am done now. Phone is going in the pocket.
Powderpanic
Banned
The only way the C&P changes are going to have ANY impact on griefing ( although first FD needs to confirm what Griefing in the context of the game actually is ) is if Elites version of EVE Concord shows up the SECOND a potential "griefie" is about to get ganked. Is then able to masslock and destroy an over engineered FDL Gankship before he highwakes or 15 second menu logs!
Cant wait to see this
Removing the wheels before removing the brakes, on a car that needs it to be done, is an unequivocal fact though.
The belief that ganking/murder has to be moderated before CLing is an opinion...and a wrong one at that.
Putting me in your trouser jungle won't change that
As I said though, have a good one.
You have been suggesting that known combat loggers cannot be punished until some other prerequisite is met.
Allowing the retention of assets acquired or persevered by cheating affects everyone.
Frankly, this is an obtuse assumption, as it's directly contrary to essentially everything I have ever stated.
I want every ship that has actually been destroyed to actually be destroyed. Doesn't matter if it's NPC or CMDR; Solo, Group, or Open. Doesn't matter if entity ultimately piloting the ship is me, you, or an AI script running on a client's computer.
All of them, though most people won't be cognisant of the effects.
Firstly, almost everything a CMDR does in this game has some influence on the BGS (economy, minor, major, and PP faction control/influence, etc). Being in Solo or Group doesn't mitigate that in the slightest.
On top of that, play styles shaped by lack of rules enforcement ultimately shape future developer choice and game content.
Elite: Dangerous from both the perspective of a player of the game, and from from the perspective of a character acting with in the setting, are vastly different than they were early on, often in ways that are not improvements (as a player) or that are so inexplicable (as an in-game character) as to be almost surrealistic. Much of this comes down to increasing neglect on Frontier's part.
Regarding combat and loss, in the same post of Sandro's I referenced above Sandro states their goals is "to get the balance right so that death is a meaningful threat that really does get the adrenaline pumping, without it being so punitive that it pushes away more casual players."
Ironically, they now have a system where 'death' doesn't mean a damn thing and is simultaneously too punitive for many players to tolerate. This is on them, as they have inflated rewards for participation to an extreme degree, while failing to enforce reasonable penalties for failure, so a substantial portion of the player base now uses effortless success as a benchmark of how things should be.
Combat logging is part of a much bigger set of problems, but mostly not the ones you think, and nothing prevents any of these problems from being attacked piecemeal, or would suggest that neglect would be better than such an approach.
I'm hopeful that the proposed changes will mitigate some of these issues, but I'm growing impatient, and the idea of blatant cheats being legitimized further by rolling up enforcement into a blanket 'karma' system, that seems as though it will fail to distinguish in-character anti-social behavior from clearly out-of-character exploits, does not leave me with much optimism.
Last edited:
But that's just the thing. PvP indeed means almost nothing in this game. Combat logging actually has more significant impact on the PvE side of the game. The BGS affects the game more than PvP. Powerplay affects the game more than PvP. CGs affect the game more than PvP. Even exploration affects the game more than PvP as first discoveries create a tangible footprint in the game world.
What's more frustrating? Not seeing an explosion in Open or not being able to keep up with the amount of exploited influence numbers/merits/CG goal completion that a cheating player can generate in the BGS/PP/CGs. I'd say both suck but one obviously impacts a larger portion of the game than the other.
I don't think it's right for the developer to ignore an issue just because it affects PvP, quite frankly that would mean they are a terrible developer. But even more so if the developer ignores an issue that can be used to bypass almost every intended mechanic in their game. Combat logging is a game-wide problem that cannot just be brushed under the carpet. It needs to be addressed at some point soon.
Not referring to you here Theodrid but the levels of headache inducing hypocrissy is coming from some people on both sides from what I have observed.
That's where the disagreement lays. I don't see the technical aspect of the connection between the two actions giving the clogger any kind of excuse. I indulge in a spot of murdering improperly prepared CMDR's coming in and out of an Engineer's facility, and that behavior is something karma and c&p is supposed to remedy, but only in an ingame sense: jasonbarron fought the law and the law won kind of thing. If some of those CMDR's in their under prepared ships decide to escape my rampage by task killing then that is an unacceptable cheating behavior that only out of game sanctions will have any hope of remedying. The only connection is one of in game play, which does not excuse the cheater from cheating.
The technical relationship between griefer and clogger (that being ungracefully exiting) is the only one that matters in this discussion. Fdev doesn't need to look at why someone cheated, just that they did.
Last edited:
Well, rage quitting in online games is nothing new, certainly not a unique issue. It's just that most games with a competitive or cooperative aspect to their PvP or PvE content look to discourage task killing/rage quitting via some form of punishment usually on a cooldown timer. The only unique issue FD have is in spending over 3 years supposedly trying to devise a reliable detection system that cuts down on the false positives to as low a level as possible.
In 3 years a lot of developers would have either devised such a system or put their game on dedicated servers thus removing the entire need to tip toe around false positives.
It's more a case of going after both simultaneously with the karma system, rather than prioritize ether one as I understand it.