PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

[Marra Morgan]

Isn't it funny how there is a complete lack of the

"Phew, that was close! I was right down to 8% hull when the attacker just disappeared!"

story?

 

[Stigbob]

Isn't it funny how there is a complete lack of the

"Phew, that was close! I was right down to 8% hull when the attacker just disappeared!"

story?

No lack of "he interdicted and attacked me, then clogged when he starting losing".

 

[Marra Morgan]

No lack of "he interdicted and attacked me, then clogged when he starting losing".

Nice whataboutery.

I understand that "unintentional disconnects" can happen in the middle of fight. It just seems funny that it only seems to happen to someone on the losing end.

Why is that?

Looking forward to the whatever straw the apologists can clutch next

 

[Stigbob]

Nice whataboutery.

I understand that "unintentional disconnects" can happen in the middle of fight. It just seems funny that it only seems to happen to someone on the losing end.

Why is that?

Looking forward to the whatever straw the apologists can clutch next

Inability to ID a clog with certainty is a powerful argument in favour of not punishing combat logging, maybe that's why FDEV don't do it.

 

[Morbad]

Here are a couple of unclean disconnections that I am fairly certain were unintentional:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of4uZSGTcLs

https://youtu.be/5_UFd51PIZo?t=805

My CMDR has fought both of these CMDRs and has been closer to destroying them than in either of these videos, without out them disconnecting, and I wasn't able to find any credible evidence of combat logging on their parts elsewhere.

In the first video it seems to be an issue with multi-crew as I have had the occasional random disconnect using that feature, especially when a crew member leaves or joins.

In the second video, my opponent has a working FSD and is well beyond mass lock range of my mothership. I could likely have destroyed his damaged frag/PA FAS eventually with my SLFs, but not in the time it would take to low or even high-wake.

Should still be easy to find and punish habitual deliberate disconnectors, but one offs should probably be given the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Asp Explorer]

I understand that "unintentional disconnects" can happen in the middle of fight. It just seems funny that it only seems to happen to someone on the losing end.

Why is that?

Looking forward to the whatever straw the apologists can clutch next

As a possible example - I have an ancient I5/7950 build with an "interesting" power consumption curve on an even MOAR ancient 500W PSU. When you are just flying around, it performs nicely. When there's all sorts of stuff going on - it simply chokes and randomly reboots.

Now - I know exactly what the issue there is and it would take me about five minutes to fix it - however it's very valuable as a testbed for exactly this kind of thing

 

[Martian Successor]

Inability to ID a clog with certainty is a powerful argument in favour of not punishing combat logging, maybe that's why FDEV don't do it.

Has FD ever stated whether they can or cannot properly ID a clog from a disconnect? I think someone from FD once said they can identify between the two but I'm not sure. In any case that's why FD ask that you send them a video of the event, especially so they can identify when the same CMDR is caught clogging during combat repeatedly. FD can also look through their server side logs of a players actions and determine whether they are disconnecting most often during combat and in the very least send them the "hey, so we see you're disconnecting a lot." email.

 

[Sebastian Rooks]

clogging

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Has FD ever stated whether they can or cannot properly ID a clog from a disconnect? I think someone from FD once said they can identify between the two but I'm not sure. In any case that's why FD ask that you send them a video of the event, especially so they can identify when the same CMDR is caught clogging during combat repeatedly. FD can also look through their server side logs of a players actions and determine whether they are disconnecting most often during combat and in the very least send them the "hey, so we see you're disconnecting a lot." email.

If they can figure who used the Engineer exploit. And wipe everyones modules that used it. They can surely find out who logs out vs another commander repeatedly.

We probably havnt seen any actions yet. Testing and all that. I think once things are established like crime and punishment. Fixes to blocking where people just cant block someone else when they are involved in things like powerplay. Creating their own "private mode" against their opponents is one of the stupidest things I have ever come across where PVP is encouraged.

People wonder why the PVP community is small? Its because of things like combat logging, blocking and stuff. Did you know you get more out of a kill through the BGS than you do in powerplay.

0 merits in powerplay for killing another commander. But if you kill someone in the BGS. You can influence %'s good or bad depending on the system you fight in, Rebuy for that commander, negative influence for any cargo or passenger missions. And time set back for missions collecting and turn ins. When people fail missions, they also effect their rep in a negative way.

But there are too many tools for it to mean anything. Combat logging, Blocking, Mode options.

The PVP community is "small" because of those things. Remove those options and watch PVP grow.

Its a META problem is all this is. Like credit fountains, and material farming places. People that are capable of PVPing dont. Because its not optimal to outfit your ship for Open. You lose jump range(Time) And cargo space for using defenses and offenses.

Oh well I guess.

We arent talking about new people. Or people that just want to relax and do some random trading for personal progression. We are talking about people that know this game well. Intentionally effecting others.

Now Queue the same 7 - 12 people that stick up for combat logging, Modes being equal and all that other nonsense.

 

[Stigbob]

If they can figure who used the Engineer exploit. And wipe everyones modules that used it. They can surely find out who logs out vs another commander repeatedly.

Number and type of rolls made are recorded, as is your mat/data inventory compare the two a discrepancy shows you the cheats.

Clogging isn't so simple.

We probably havnt seen any actions yet. Testing and all that. I think once things are established like crime and punishment. Fixes to blocking where people just cant block someone else when they are involved in things like powerplay. Creating their own "private mode" against their opponents is one of the stupidest things I have ever come across where PVP is encouraged.

Blocks fab, great way to remove anyone who behaves like a tummy banana from the game.

People wonder why the PVP community is small? Its because of things like combat logging, blocking and stuff. Did you know you get more out of a kill through the BGS than you do in powerplay.

Or maybe it's because PVE and co-op are just more popular.

0 merits in powerplay for killing another commander. But if you kill someone in the BGS. You can influence %'s good or bad depending on the system you fight in, Rebuy for that commander, negative influence for any cargo or passenger missions. And time set back for missions collecting and turn ins. When people fail missions, they also effect their rep in a negative way.

FDEV probably didn't want to encourage killing spree's given some players don't like it.

But there are too many tools for it to mean anything. Combat logging, Blocking, Mode options.

Combat logging is a cheat, modes and block are perfectly legit choices made available to the player.

The PVP community is "small" because of those things. Remove those options and watch PVP grow.

Which could shrink the wider playerbase. FDEV have clarified the number of PVP'ers is small they would be daft to cater exclusively to a minority of the players and an unpopular aspect of the game.

Its a META problem is all this is. Like credit fountains, and material farming places. People that are capable of PVPing dont. Because its not optimal to outfit your ship for Open. You lose jump range(Time) And cargo space for using defenses and offenses.

Oh well I guess.

People do what they enjoy, PVP can be fun but drastically one sided PVP not so much. That's why things like the PVP hub are a good idea, it means you can arrange fights that are enjoyable for everyone.

We arent talking about new people. Or people that just want to relax and do some random trading for personal progression. We are talking about people that know this game well. Intentionally effecting others.

It's OK to not like PVP, just as it's OK to like PVP as long as you accept other people have their own opinions and can't be compelled to do one or the other.

Now Queue the same 7 - 12 people that stick up for combat logging, Modes being equal and all that other nonsense.

Nobody is or has been sticking up for combat logging.

The modes are the reason this game got made, without choice on offer it may not have appealed to enough players to be financially viable.

 

[InlineSix]

This whole thread is useless.

Why?

I have never ever combat logged.

I have never ever told anyone to do so.

But!

I was smeared as someone teaching newbies to combat log. A disgrutled newbie I once helped told one guy of a well known griefer gang who in turn told a well known pseudo cop collection. Voila, I was KOSed and chased out of game.

And!

I was told I was a
- mode switcher
- combat logger
- plug puller
... just because of my permanent connection woes - not a single one of these heroes ever took the time to check for my numerous postings about eternal jumps, eternal drops, empty instances, missing cmdr names, vanishing people and so on.

Conclusion:

As long as it is comfortable for people calling each other combat loggers - it shows fear in one's opponent and almighty power in the one sayinig so - there won't be any change in all this. There's a group on reddit, calling people combat loggers - A huge part of people smeared simply had crashed or instancing failures - it's ridiculous.

Frontier should decide what to do with Elite. If it really shall be a combat capable MMO, they have to invest quite some manpower on assuring combat logging is punished - at least with "no insurance" or something. A burning station with a whining announcer and some nice flames does not compensate for the design flaws making life in game a constant pain.

 

[Powderpanic]

I was told I was a
- mode switcher
- combat logger
- plug puller
... just because of my permanent connection woes - not a single one of these heroes ever took the time to check for my numerous postings about eternal jumps, eternal drops, empty instances, missing cmdr names, vanishing people and so on.

I see this line so many times as a reason why combat logging cannot be regarded as a real issue.

If you cannot keep a stable connection to Open, do not play in Open.

Why everyone feels the game rules should cater for ones bad internet status, is incredible.

In your case, if you did keep dropping in a PVP situation, purely because of "the net".

Why did you keep putting yourself in that situation?

 

[Stigbob]

I see this line so many times as a reason why combat logging cannot be regarded as a real issue.

Everyone regards clogging as a real issue, people just disagree about it's severity and the ease of identifying it.

If you cannot keep a stable connection to Open, do not play in Open.

You don't know your connections unstable until it fails a few times.

Why everyone feels the game rules should cater for ones bad internet status, is incredible.

FDEV selling a game with offline mode in the past and no broadband stability or speed requirements then or now might have some bearing on that.

In your case, if you did keep dropping in a PVP situation, purely because of "the net".

Why did you keep putting yourself in that situation?

Same reason everyone logs into open, they like playing in that mode.

 

[Brrokk]

...
If you cannot keep a stable connection to Open, do not play in Open.
...

I keep reading here that there are no rules in Open. Let's be consistent; that means there's no rule about minimum network reliability. The person with the dodgy connection has as much right to play (if he can overcome the frustration) as anyone else.

 

[Arguendo]

I keep reading here that there are no rules in Open. Let's be consistent; that means there's no rule about minimum network reliability. The person with the dodgy connection has as much right to play (if he can overcome the frustration) as anyone else.

If they play in a MMO with a dodgy internet connection, they then also have to accept that they may be shadowbanned into solo mode, as their internet connection affects other people's gameplay. There are two sides to that coin.

 

[Brrokk]

If they play in a MMO with a dodgy internet connection, they then also have to accept that they may be shadowbanned into solo mode, as their internet connection affects other people's gameplay. There are two sides to that coin.

How likely is that?

 

[Stigbob]

How likely is that?

In a game sold with an offline mode they pulled before release zero.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Number and type of rolls made are recorded, as is your mat/data inventory compare the two a discrepancy shows you the cheats.

Clogging isn't so simple.



Blocks fab, great way to remove anyone who behaves like a tummy banana from the game.



Or maybe it's because PVE and co-op are just more popular.



FDEV probably didn't want to encourage killing spree's given some players don't like it.



Combat logging is a cheat, modes and block are perfectly legit choices made available to the player.



Which could shrink the wider playerbase. FDEV have clarified the number of PVP'ers is small they would be daft to cater exclusively to a minority of the players and an unpopular aspect of the game.



People do what they enjoy, PVP can be fun but drastically one sided PVP not so much. That's why things like the PVP hub are a good idea, it means you can arrange fights that are enjoyable for everyone.



It's OK to not like PVP, just as it's OK to like PVP as long as you accept other people have their own opinions and can't be compelled to do one or the other.



Nobody is or has been sticking up for combat logging.

The modes are the reason this game got made, without choice on offer it may not have appealed to enough players to be financially viable.

Those are some nice opinions.

 

[Arguendo]

How likely is that?

Based on FDev's history, not very. Based on what FDev claims however, that may happen.

I am not saying they will be shadowbanned mind you. I am saying that if you know your internet connection is shoddy and you get disconnected in combat a lot, you should not complain when you get a warning and subsequent shadowban due to it.

 

[kinglemo2000]

I get that.

I'm referring to the idea that Asp Explorer just floated as to why punishment shouldn't occur, on page 104

Because Asp Explorer idea can also work another way with combat logging as he said in his post it could be used by a group of players to troll and report a player for false logging by using the firewall, but this could be used by a clogger rather than kill task or pull the cable, cloggers on PC would be able to use their firewall to kill the P2P connection only between players to escape destruction but they will still be logged on to the game rather than now where they totally disconnect, this would make it very hard to prove it was a log as only the P2P connection was lost, most good firewall these days allow you to monitor the connections to your computer by application and IP making this very easy to do