PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

I got a bit annoyed at the mods wrongfully dumping this thread in the PvP section like it's the trash bin so I decided to hit DD with some truth:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-Task-Kill-on-Thargoids?p=6269345#post6269345

I think I might take a page from Stigbob's playbook and start linking to it every time someone says combat logging is a PvP-only issue. My thanks to the mods for the inspiration to write it :)

I find it's most efficacious to spam the link in reply to people in utterly unrelated threads trying to criticize you for having posted the helpful and informative thread in the first place.

If you put the link in your sig you always have it handy.
 

ryan_m

Banned
But you didn't establish that. You still haven't, you just wasted 5 months and established neither datapoint (the point where they take notice, and the point where they take reasonable preventative or punitive action). You just complain that the action they do take isn't enough (which was known in March, apparently).

How did we not. Is 5 combat logs not "multiple times"? Account didn't get a warning email or anything.

People like you would not be satisfied no matter how many times it was done, no matter how long it was between logs, because you're an apologist at heart. You completely sidestep the issue that the first time FDev admitted they didn't do anything about it, and this time, they hid behind a PR answer to cover themselves. Instead of getting indignant with us, you should be asking FDev why 5 reported instances of exploiting doesn't even warrant a letter, considering they themselves told us they can tell when it's a combat log. If they can detect it, there should be no debate about this at all.
 
This would be valid were FD to collaborate with SDC to dig out CLing, but FD were not privvy to the thresholds SDC chose to test against other than the reports they received.

They were told it would be looked into and multiple CLogs resulted in zero action against it. Debate the exterior details if you will, but that is the simple essence of this.
Yeah I see all that.

My quote was unfortunate, it's the quoted part within Riverside's post I agreed with, not the "no it isn't"
 
How did we not. Is 5 combat logs not "multiple times"? Account didn't get a warning email or anything.

People like you would not be satisfied no matter how many times it was done, no matter how long it was between logs, because you're an apologist at heart. You completely sidestep the issue that the first time FDev admitted they didn't do anything about it, and this time, they hid behind a PR answer to cover themselves. Instead of getting indignant with us, you should be asking FDev why 5 reported instances of exploiting doesn't even warrant a letter, considering they themselves told us they can tell when it's a combat log. If they can detect it, there should be no debate about this at all.

The question I ask is why, when I anticipated a poor reaction from the 5 for 1 'punishment' a solution could not be found to negate the advantage of CLogging. I started a thread on it (I've linked to it at least a dozen times in this thread) with what turned out to be a pretty rubbish idea, but two weeks later after a lot of constructive debate, pulled together a collection of mostly other peoples ideas into a workable solution.

One that takes a zero tolerance approach, and discourages (or eliminates most advantages of) CLogging, without punishing (or even being noticed by) regular players whose connection occasionally drops.

Go read the whole thread. Contribute. Pick holes in it, and then solve those new problems. Get behind it & work to getting it implemented. It doesn't need to wait for karma but gives an extra datapoint that karma can harvest.
 
Literally admitting you cannot debate a topic because of the poster.

Nothing that can be said from here man.

No I am telling you it will have been dismissed because of where it comes from. People just see it as SDC grandstanding so they can take credit for any fixes that do go into the game.

I've already explained to you several times about what I personally think could be/should be done about CLogging and griefing which you are choosing to ignore. That means nothing more needs to be said.
 

Sir.Tj

The Moderator who shall not be Blamed....
Volunteer Moderator
And despite requests to stick to the rules...

Thread will now be closed.
 
Sadly yes. Although SDC are absolutely to blame for their own bad rep, there's no denying that. However some people need to learn to seperate their dislike of SDC's conduct and the ability to recognise the existence of a valid issue. It's really not all that hard to not react to everything as if it were a binary option of either black or white. I managed to do it with my first post in this thread where I simultaneously took the pee on SDC for being Lance Armstrong telling us about the ills of cheating and also acknowledged the point being made was a valid one regardless.

I would agree it is a valid issue. Yet SDC's investigations, and I use that term loosely, do not give a true measure of the scale of the issue. Maybe their efforts show Frontier aren't acting, maybe 5 combat logs in 5 months hasn't crossed the threshold of suspicion - we don't know. But their assertion is the former when we don't know if the 'evidence' (contrived as it is) is sufficient to prove that. Some have an OPINION that it is, others have a different OPINION. Yet the 'investigation' is proposed as factual evidence of Frontier not acting - but that can only be said to be true for this particular case and even then we don't know if Frontier is acting through a monitoring approach and simply hasn't taken it further (the behaviour stopped at the completion of SDC's investigation?). How representative is it of other reported combat logging instances.? We don't know. To be sure, others have also observed behaviour that in their opinion is consistent with combat logging yet claim to have seen the offender apparently still in game - but we don't know whether they have received a behind the scenes warning or not in those cases - so we don't know whether Frontier acted or not. Just because they're still in game the next day doesn't mean Frontier hasn't acted, for all we know.

The point is we don't know what measures Frontier are using - and I would argue we don't need to. A better tack to highlight the issue would be proper unbiased statistical data to first determine the exact scale of the issue (eg x number of potential combat logs observed in y number of PvP encounters over z months, n of these being repeat offenders). Demonstrate, unambiguosly and with independently verifiable data that is unbiased toward one agenda or another, that combat logging is as serious an issue as a small section of the playerbase claims it is and then we might be getting somewhere. Then look at how many have or have not been dealt with.....assuming they've been reported of course. Even then, we still wouldn't have visibility of what's been dealt with as we won't have visibility of warnings or bans.

There is no getting away from the fact that SDC's reputation precedes them though, and will tarnish any reasonable assessment of their position. If they really wanted to be the game's vanguard of righteousness and getting problems fixed, they shouldn't have previously allowed members to engage in attery. It's hard to have much sympathy for them I'm afraid. It's sad isn't it, when being jerks comes back to bite hey.
 
Last edited:

Tiny_Rick

Banned
Combat logging to the main menu/desktop via the 15 second timer is a different matter and discussion to be had entirely. Currently, this action is confirmed by Frontier as “legitimate”, and as such is not being addressed in this post.

Then you've wasted an enormous amount of time writing this, since you assume that the addition of a 15-second cooldown magically justifies bad behavior. Ceteris paribus, logging is logging is logging, irrelevant of how FD regulates the action.

You ruin your credibility when you throw tantrums about inaction over something you can get away legitimately after 15 seconds.
 
So where were we at? Combat logging is bad, no?

Yes, and discussing why it is wrong
to hide this thread in the PvP section.

Last time on " An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2"
How clogging affects the whole game, from any mode, from loosing situations.

I so far saw some good points, why this is not only a PvP issue,
but mostly apparent when there is a CMDR at the receiving end.
 
Last edited:
No, it is not unless it falls under FDev's definition of harassment!

The common use of them "griefing" means exactly what I said it does. If FD really wants to make an artificial distinction between "griefing" (which most games simply refer to as PvP) and "harassment" (which most games simply refer to as griefing or trolling) they can use the terms however they like. Usually "harassment" goes well beyond what most players consider PvP "griefing" in the game and usually extends to other behaviors. Whatever you feel like calling it however doesn't change that the situation I described someone is witnessing another CMDR combat log over and over may well be a situation that goes against FD's own rules. If they are targeting that specific commander it is not allowed. Yet the only way for them to record that CMDR combat logging over and over again requires them to target that specific player. Whatever you call it (griefing, trolling, harassment, etc.) it is not allowed by FD's own rules.

Rules are rules, and if you break certain rules to "prove" someone is combat logging by targeting them repeatedly then the person carrying out those actions should also be subject to punishments themselves. I strongly suspect that many of the "serial combat logging" that people claim to "witness" is the end result of other players breaking the rules as well. Otherwise how are those records being made? Why isn't the combat logger simply on that player's block list? What was happening before and after the combat logging behavior? I'd like the entire story behind those situations and only FD has that information. That is very likely why their "punishments" certain players are expecting are more complicated than simply "identifying" an isolated case of someone combat logging.
 
Seems to me a constructive use for this thread might be to debate the threshold points at which penalties should start to occur, and what those penalties ought to be.

FDev say they have a system in place, I'm going to presume it's a prototype trend tracking (karma) system.

So a trend monitor obviously can't be set to zero tolerance, with only a single datapoint intent cannot be clearly established.

So forgetting what the penalty is for a moment, how many times, over what period of time are your best & worst case? Where do you think those two lines should be drawn?

Then suggest a ramping penalty system to go with those numbers.

Let's see if we can come up with some reasonably agreeable compromise that doesn't just fall between two stools.
 
Seems to me a constructive use for this thread might be to debate the threshold points at which penalties should start to occur, and what those penalties ought to be.

FDev say they have a system in place, I'm going to presume it's a prototype trend tracking (karma) system.

So a trend monitor obviously can't be set to zero tolerance, with only a single datapoint intent cannot be clearly established.

So forgetting what the penalty is for a moment, how many times, over what period of time are your best & worst case? Where do you think those two lines should be drawn?

Then suggest a ramping penalty system to go with those numbers.

Let's see if we can come up with some reasonably agreeable compromise that doesn't just fall between two stools.

Presumably the preconditions would be:

- disconnect occurs in combat
- that combat is with another player (we're not going to punish for logging on an NPC, surely.....are we?)
- such disconnects by the offender occur repeatedly (time period to be determined)
- such repeated disconnects are observed to be primarily, but not necessarily exclusively, during combat situations?
 
Why not?
Saving money by doing a clog is neutral to the other side,
it is purely egoistical in that matter.

Who would report it? The NPC isn't about to report a combat log against them. Expecting Frontier to devote resources to monitoring ALL combat activities just to catch those who combat log on NPCs is a ridiculous notion.
 
Presumably the preconditions would be:

- disconnect occurs in combat
- that combat is with another player (we're not going to punish for logging on an NPC, surely.....are we?)
- such disconnects by the offender occur repeatedly (time period to be determined)
- such repeated disconnects are observed to be primarily, but not necessarily exclusively, during combat situations?

That looks like a good place to start.

I agree we should focus on PvP Clogging specifically of the 'about to lose, deliberately end task' type. I realise PvE Clogging is a bugbear for some (we could establish what the consensus is on that, stick me in the don't really care about it column).

We should assume FDev are capable of identifying this type of disconnect, and focus on how many, over a set period.

I guess a karma system would only keep data for a limited time, so lets call that one month.

How many times in one month is so few that you would give the benefit of the doubt?
How many times in one month is so many that the maximum penalty should apply?
What do you think the maximum penalty should be?
 
SDC weren't the first and have hardly been the only people to notice that Frontier's negligible consequences haven't been enough to mitigate the issue.

Sorry, but I don't see this anywhere. Like I stated in earlier posts, no one other than SDC is making an "issue" of this and SDC's "evidence" is laughable. Is there another group who has been raising concerns and providing reliable evidence? I'm not talking about complatins about combat logging in general, there are various posts about that issue on the forums, I'm referring specifically to the claim that FD "isn't doing anything" about combat logging.

That is a very strong claim to make, and such a claim needs suitably compelling evidence to back it up.

I'm not making assumptions. My statements are based on multiple, repeat, observations of my own.

When someone comes into a CZ where I'm fighting, picks the opposite side, proceeds to engage my CMDR, disconnects five times in thirty minutes when I get close to stripping their shields, and, after submitting a report, with a complete video account of the scenario, I see this same CMDR still flying around in Open several times a week for the next month...it's pretty clear Frontier hasn't done much of anything.


When someone who has openly admitted, to cheating, on video, attacks my CMDR, loses badly, deliberately disconnects to save his ship, is reported (again, with corroborating evidence), then is still encountered in Open, it's pretty Frontier hasn't done much of anything.

How do you know what FD has or hasn't done? You don't. If you were expecting a ban of some sort that's just not realistic. FD doesn't ban longstanding cheaters who persist in using an exploit for over a year. What do you expect FD to do because someone combat logs a few times on you in a CZ?

Because I encounter parties that have admitted to combat logging rather frequently, in Open, and none the worse for wear...nor do they seem any less inclined to cheat in the same manner if they find themselves outmatched.

I have to ask, why aren't they on your block list? The block list works well (I've used it myself on many occasions) and you're under no obligation to continue interacting with that CMDR. Why are you choosing to interact with them if you believe they are breaking the rules? Is it simply to "gather evidence" against them? If so that could be considered harassment if you are specifically targeting that player. If not, then why continue to interact at all with them when you don't have to?

Lenience in one area doesn't imply lenience in another.

It wasn't really "lenience". It was what FD considers an appropriate response, i.e., removal of the exploit and basically no punishment at all. They didn't announce "we're letting the Engineering exploiters get off easy this time". They announced why they made the decision and how it was implemented. I actually felt that it was a good decision at the time in the sense that it restored confidence in FD's ability to monitor and eliminate exploits and cheating. I wasn't really looking for FD to deliver "punishment" anyways, I was simply wanting Open to become a level playing field again by removing the exploits so I was happy with how they handled it. The issue here is that sets a very clear precedent and FD has to take that into consideration going forward. They've set the bar very high for delivering actual "punishment" and it shouldn't surprise anyone that combat logging a few times doesn't result in players being given immediate game bans.

There are also piles of exploits that haven't been explicitly forbidden where it's not reasonable to expect offenders to be punished, but deliberate disconnections were clarified as explicitly against the rules a long time ago.

FD is very clear about what an exploit is even if they haven't specifically spoken out on every single possible exploit in the game. They clarified this again at the time the Engineering exploit was addressed. If a player is knowingly cheating using specific means that are clearly not intended game behavior then the player is responsible for their behiavior. There are some "grey areas" where FD has specifically allowed certain actions, i.e., mode switching, using a mutlicrew AFK account for bonuses and so on. Unless FD has told you that something you're worried about is OK then you should assume that it isn't. The only "confusion" here is for some very specific edge cases and FD has already addressed these issues. There is no one who could have "accidentally" carried out the Engineering exploit, it was a very specific set of behavior to exploit a very specific bug and everyone who did that knew exactly what they were doing.

I think the old way massacre missions stacked and the original incarnation of long range transport missions were at least as blatantly cheating as the 5 for 1 Engineering exploit

That's utter nonsnese. Mission stacking and accepting long-range cargo missions is intended game behavior and simply involves taking on multiple missions in the regular course of gameplay. The Engineering exploit required a very specific set of unusual steps to reproduce and could not have been considered "intended" or done "accidentally". They are such completely different things that you seem to be profoundly confused about what an exploit is and what constitutes cheating. I would suggest reading some of the dev comments about what FD considers an exploit because you are confusing normal gameplay with blatant cheating here.

...which is precisely why I avoided abusing any of them (if it doesn't make sense, and isn't explicitly allowed, it should be against the rules, IMO). Most of these sorts of things haven't been, and may well never be, denounced by Frontier, and whenever they have been, it's been long after the fact.

Accepting a mission (or multiple missions) and having those missions stack is normal game behavior. You can still stack data delivery missions or cargo missions right now if you want.

Experience has taught me not to expect anything at all!

You could chain interdict my FDL with a T-9, record yourself with a web cam as you reset your router fifty times in a row, and we could both report you, both provide video, and I'd be astonished if you got more than a warning, even if you begged for punishment.

That's the issue again, you're looking for "punishment" when we know FD doesn't generally "punish" cheaters. They try to address the consequences of the exploit whenever possible but they aren't going to go around "punishing" players just to make you feel "better".

Someone breaking the rules isn't license to do so yourself.

Exactly. Which is why someone who is being targeted by griefers repeatedly and is then shown to be combat logging should have some consequences for choosing to combat log, but so should the players who were harassing the individual who combat logged. I suspect that many of these "combat logging" examples that are provided as "evidence" are part of a larger problem that FD needs to address systematically. Combat logging is only one part of the larger problem.

Either someone cheated, or they did not. It's not always immediately obvious if someone is cheating (I can provide nearly as many examples of non-menu disconnections that weren't deliberate as I can deliberate ones), but if someone is cheating, the circumstances are completely irrelevant.

They are relevant in the sense that everyone who broke the rules should have consequences for their behavior.

The best way to decrease it's occurrence is to make the punishment much worse than the loss of a ship.

The same could be said about griefers who target and harass individual players.

I want them to be categorically barred from interacting with, or from acquiring/preserving assets that could be used in, the same game as those who aren't cheating.

It's not up to you to decide how FD handles cheating. It's up to FD. In the meantime you have been given the means to avoid those interactions with those specific players who you feel are cheating. You can choose not to interact with them by placing them on your block list. It works quite well, I have several griefers on my list and it keeps me from instancing with them.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom