PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
There is no getting away from the fact that SDC's reputation precedes them though, and will tarnish any reasonable assessment of their position. If they really wanted to be the game's vanguard of righteousness and getting problems fixed, they shouldn't have previously allowed members to engage in attery. It's hard to have much sympathy for them I'm afraid. It's sad isn't it, when being jerks comes back to bite hey.
You letting your bias against previous actions of SDC get in the way of seeing that what they claim now, and claimed in their "part 1" of this series, is frankly your problem. Take a step back, do your very best to imagine that the OP was presented by say a representative of Adle's Armada, and then ask yourself if you would look at it differently. If the answer is yes, then you're seeing "SDC" and nothing else. That is unfortunate tbh.

The common use of them "griefing" means exactly what I said it does.
I truly intended to answer this post with a full answer, but then I read through your responses to other posts in the thread. The conclusion I came to is that you have connection issues on your side, which you blame on the game and FDev, and you are therefore incapable of admitting anything that would put you in a precarious position. I have nowhere near the issues you describe when it comes to connectivity, so I can only surmise that the problem does not lie with the game or FDev, but with you and your internet connection. Until you accept that as well, there is really no point in discussing this issue with you. You will protect your position no matter what, because you don't accept that with the frequency of disconnects you experience you have no business being in Open Mode in a Multiplayer game.

That's the thing though isn't it, if they could spot it reliably this thread probably wouldn't exist.
According to FDev they can reliably spot this though, and they have said so numerous times. The problem isn't their inability to spot the issue, it's their apparant lack of action upon spotting it or it being reported to them.

As far as the combat logging goes -- I still can't figure out what drives people to do this; starting the game in Open Play isn't forced on anyone, so you're there for player interaction and when you get that player interaction you pull the plug? *boggled*
People don't want to lose. It really is that simple, and it's extremely prevalent among the noob-killers

Think I'm done with this thread now because I don't particularly want to provide a reason for it being close again and I'm finding it increasingly difficult to keep my posts civil with some of the stuff I'm reading. Enjoy the discussion Commanders, such as it is.
Please reconsider this. Your input is on-point as always.
 
So how would you solve the problem?

I saw a very good post on reddit the other day,

I believe the first good step is to admit they have a problem with combat loggers. Then they need to establish a solid foundation with the community to promote good in-game behaviors when playing in open to minimize the effect of combat logging.

I would also suggest to implement a flagging system sort of like in EVE online - i.e. if you are found to be combat logging in combat more than once every or so engagement then you should be hit with a combat timer, meaning the next time you engage in PVP your ship will remain for an undetermined period of time floating in space.

Any decent and modest technical expert in network engineering will be able to simulate random disconnect at will and be able to do the difference between a menu log and task kill when the peers disconnect from the server, there's no doubt frontier is able to do that.
 
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I saw a very good post on reddit the other day,

I believe the first good step is to admit they have a problem with combat loggers. Then they need to establish a solid foundation with the community to promote good in-game behaviors when playing in open to minimize the effect of combat logging.

I would also suggest to implement a flagging system sort of like in EVE online - i.e. if you are found to be combat logging in combat more than once every or so engagement then you should be hit with a combat timer, meaning the next time you engage in PVP your ship will remain for an undetermined period of time floating in space.

+1 :)
 
I would also suggest to implement a flagging system sort of like in EVE online - i.e. if you are found to be combat logging in combat more than once every or so engagement then you should be hit with a combat timer, meaning the next time you engage in PVP your ship will remain for an undetermined period of time floating in space.

Yeah - like as if that would ever work :D

Nothing against you Sole personally of course, but why do so many combative CMDR's possess such a fundamental misunderstanding of how the game actually maintains connectivity (or does not maintain such)?
 
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The issue here is that I enjoy playing in Open. I'm fundamentally a PVE player but I really have limited interest in single-player games. Even though Elite is very sparsely populated for a "multiplayer" game I at least want to have the potential to encounter other players. I refuse to enter Solo mode (I won't even mode switch to refresh the mission boards) because to me that is not the type of game I want to play.

There are also issues where game crashes and D/Cs affect group PVE content so it can affect other players outside of PVP combat. I participate in CZ or RES combat at CGs in wings and it can be rather problematic when your wingmates suddenly drop out or can't reconnect for various reasons.

Essentially the issue here is that I don't want to be "penalized" for encountering frequent crashes or D/Cs simply because a small but very vocal player group believes that their desire to grief other players is furthered by excessively punishing the entire playerbase for the limitations of an inherently unstable game.

Thank you, most of the time it's not PvE vs PvP, it's people who don't want to play in Open vs people who want more people to play in Open. Loads of PvE's people play in Open. Not to mention you'll be hard pressed to find a PvPer that doesn't regularly PvE.

It should be about having a more healthy mode for all players.
 
Yeah - like as if that would ever work :D

Nothing against you Sole personally of course, but why do so many combative CMDR's possess such a fundamental misunderstanding of how the game actually maintains connectivity (or does not maintain such)?

It works in other games like Dark Souls and they use peer-2-peer. It works in EVE online and it works in many other online games. Why couldn't it be possible to make it work in Elite Dangerous?

Why does this game has to be so special and different so it cannot do the same thing as other games do perfectly fine to minimize the amount of cheaters on their servers?
 
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I saw a very good post on reddit the other day,

I believe the first good step is to admit they have a problem with combat loggers. Then they need to establish a solid foundation with the community to promote good in-game behaviors when playing in open to minimize the effect of combat logging.

I would also suggest to implement a flagging system sort of like in EVE online - i.e. if you are found to be combat logging in combat more than once every or so engagement then you should be hit with a combat timer, meaning the next time you engage in PVP your ship will remain for an undetermined period of time floating in space.

Do they have a problem with Cloggers? Clearly you have a problem with Cloggers. Maybe they think they have a problem with griefers, and Clogging is just another way of griefing, and you don't like being griefed just like everyone else.

Eve is client/server, ED is peer to peer. Your idea of a combat timer wouldn't work in ED. What would work in ED? How does the Dark Souls thing work?
 
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That's your answer right there.

What?

Do they have a problem with Cloggers? Clearly you have a problem with Cloggers. Maybe they think they have a problem with griefers, and Clogging is just another way of griefing, and you don't like being griefed just like everyone else.

Eve is client/server, ED is peer to peer. Your idea of a combat timer wouldn't work in ED. What would work in ED?

Then how do you explain a game using peer to peer like dark souls 3 with 20 000 to 25 000 people on their server can get a combat timer to work if a player task kill too much?
 
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My dear Sole - I have pointed it out as clearly as I possibly can. Understand what servers FD use. Understand what they are used for. I can help you no further I'm afraid.

At least I didn't add "Git Gud!" for the lulz :D

Then how do you explain a game using peer to peer like dark souls 3 with instances just like Elite Dangerous with 20 000 to 25 000 people on their server can get a combat timer to work if a player task kill too much?

Because P2P is both a topology and an architecture and an infrastructure. It's not a simple "Oh I need to go to Tesco to buy some more P2P". Network much, dude?
 
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My dear Sole - I have pointed it out as clearly as I possibly can. Understand what servers FD use. Understand what they are used for. I can help you no further I'm afraid.

At least I didn't add "Git Gud!" for the lulz :D

So do you know how the Dark Souls combat timer thing works?
 
So do you know how the Dark Souls combat timer thing works?

As far as I know if you disconnect from player engagements too many time you get hit with a server timer. If you want to remove the timer and restore the link to other ''worlds'' you need to use an item named ''Way of the white circle'' and you only get one every 10 hours. Now, obviously we wouldn't want to penalize someone from being able to access open for 10 hours.

Basically, after a certain amount of points you get flagged as a combat logger.


  • Closing the game itself while you're connected to another player will add penalty points. (Crashing is treated this way).
  • Losing internet connectivity will add penalty points.
  • Points are accumulated per character basis.
My dear Sole - I have pointed it out as clearly as I possibly can. Understand what servers FD use. Understand what they are used for. I can help you no further I'm afraid.

At least I didn't add "Git Gud!" for the lulz
biggrin.png




Because P2P is both a topology and an architecture and an infrastructure. It's not a simple "Oh I need to go to Tesco to buy some more P2P". Network much, dude?

You're lucky I replied and please don't talk about thing's you clearly don't know.

So you never heard of Dark Souls, but you are familiar with the Git gud! meme from Dark Souls.
 
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I truly intended to answer this post with a full answer, but then I read through your responses to other posts in the thread. The conclusion I came to is that you have connection issues on your side, which you blame on the game and FDev, and you are therefore incapable of admitting anything that would put you in a precarious position. I have nowhere near the issues you describe when it comes to connectivity, so I can only surmise that the problem does not lie with the game or FDev, but with you and your internet connection. Until you accept that as well, there is really no point in discussing this issue with you. You will protect your position no matter what, because you don't accept that with the frequency of disconnects you experience you have no business being in Open Mode in a Multiplayer game.

I'm sorry but I don't have "connection issues", whatever you think that means. I have no problems with other games, I have no problems with my internet connection except when the service has a full outage (which his obvious because none of my other devices work under those circumstances) and many of the problems I'm describing occur when the game crashes due to a bug which has nothing to do with my internet connection. I also use an internet landline so it's not like my wifi is dropping frequently, it's literally plugged into my router which is plugged into the wall.

Suggesting that the game crashes frequently because of anything I'm doing is quite frankly absurd. Suggesting that the game D/Cs because of anything I'm doing is equally absurd. These crashes and D/C issues frequently happen when I am the only player in the instance, when my bandwidth is <1000 B/s (easy to check in-game) and when none of my other internet devices, my TV and everything else that my internet runs on are having any difficulties whatsoever.

Sorry but blaming an unstable game that has countless forum posts and threads about numerous problems on someone's "connection issues" is quite frankly nonsensical when I have no problems with my internet connection, my other games or anything to do with my system and when the problems occur when I am the only player in the instance.
 
"Asp Explorer"

Do you have any good solution against combat loggers ?

There are a few thing that could be easily implemented - and FD have already implemented some of them.

I don't want to get too much into technicalities as the mods will get grumpy. Lets just say they already test cable length and pairing. They also test against time changes. There is also a - and I find this one amusing - a failover failout. Say I've got quad NIC's - and one dies and the failover takes over, the client dies because it's detected what it considers a problem, whilst the OS carries on regardless. Now that actually is quite clever ;)
 
As far as I know if you disconnect from player engagements too many time you get hit with a server timer. If you want to remove the timer you need to use an item named ''Way of the white circle'' and you only get one every 10 hours.

Basically, after a certain amount of points you get flagged as a combat logger.


  • Closing the game itself while you're connected to another player will add penalty points. (Crashing is treated this way).
  • Losing internet connectivity will add penalty points.
  • Points are accumulated per character basis.


You're lucky I replied and please don't talk about thing's you clearly don't know.

So you never heard of Dark Souls, but you are familiar with the Git gud! meme from Dark Souls.

A flagging system can both work on a client based network and by peers to peers. Server is irrelevant.

Yeah that's right, you get one 10-14 hours (in game), next to your coffin in the Cemetery of Ash after taking one. So if you are having legit issues it accounts for that.

FDev could learn so much about PvP balancing in a predominantly PvE based game from From Soft.
 
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Yeah that's right, you get one 10-14 hours (in game), next to your coffin in the Cemetery of Ash after taking one. So if you are having legit issues it accounts for that.

FDev could learn so much about PvP balancing in a predominantly PvE based game from From Soft.

I agree, I wasn't 100% sure if it was still around 10 hours but obviously we wouldn't want to make it that long in Elite.
 
You're lucky I replied and please don't talk about thing's you clearly don't know.

My dear Sole - I'll happily sit here and talk networking with you for, erm, shall we say, until the heat death of the universe.

I'm a mainframe hardware engineer :D

I can build RS485 hubs out of my belly button fluff.
 
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