An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[TieKnee]

Aw man OP, why all the bad karma on FD just because they do not answer to you nor anyone. Fact is dude - grown ups lie because! This is just a forum and it is not FDEVs. I hate to beat on those that feed us but man this sure is stirring crap. So what? The game can not legally kick buyers nor discriminate against the many exploits. Who cares? You got bleeding Private Mode to do what you want with who you like. I personally hate this free to do as you please in OPEN but hey I don't blame FD for not having any interest in reading every dig at them. So things are simply not possible to be managed and to not make mistakes against innocent players is the priorty - i.e. accidentally Shadow Banning players for genuine reasons. They gave us the right to be free - the right to combat log and report those that you believe to be bad dude. Seriously though, how bleeding bad is pulling a cord on your own PC? OMG!
Is all you done dude is investigate and then read all 2388 posts in your own thread. Get a life please

Very well said....

 

[NeilF]

The design intent as I understand it was that PvP gameplay was intended to be "rare and meaningful", what that means is that if you are after Elite: PvP Space Wars (i.e. regular PvP opportunities) then you are looking at Elite: Dangerous the wrong way.

While certain blockading incidents have been happening in Open (shinrata, maia, hutton orbital, and others) for at least the past year they are more IMO misguided and counter-productive. They are easily avoidable by those that are aware of them via use of the other game modes and in fact I believe people that engage in such blockades are not acting in the best interests of the game as a whole. FD may permit it but I think they should enact measures to discourage such behaviours (e.g. Pilot Federation bounties for CMDR v. non-wanted CMDR incidents) else it will probably just force players out of Open in the long run and create an environment that may discourage newer players from ever playing in Open.

Alas, PvP is common and mostly meaningless... It's all a bit of a mess IMHO!

Two years in and the depth of PvP basically = randomly interdicting other CMDRs who generally are not at the time interested or equipped for PvP, and mindlessly shooting/destroying them. Is this the depth of gameplay we envisage?

 

[Kriidah]

I wonder.. How many people would kill Clean Pilots if the murderer gained a 'fine' (not a bounty, a fine that has to be paid personally and is not forgotten for 90 days) equal to twice the Rebuy cost or the % of rebuy/balance of the victim(up to the full ship's cost), whichever is greater.

<> Example: A cobra with a rebuy of 500k, flown by a Clean Pilot with a balance of 1,500,000 would cost a the murderer 1,000,000credits or 33%(up to 10,000,000credits) of their current Credit Balance.

Most importantly, the Cobra pilot would be shown on the Rebuy screen how large the Fine the Pilots Federation(Assuming they are the insurance company, if not just change the name) placed onto their attacker was.

 

[V'larr]

As I see it... If player A logged out they and logged back in then if player B was still in normal space then player A would spawn beyond notional maximum detection range but with-in maximum instance range (so notionally 15-30km). If player B, happened to be in supper cruise then player A would enter the same super cruise instance as player B as soon as they enter super cruise. They could be instance locked for say 1hr in either case (c/f wings).

I'm sorry, but...that's still totally pointless.

Firstly, how do you know Player A is going to reconnect at all?

Secondly, how do you guarantee they reconnect to the same server?

Thirdly, how do you preserve the shield/health/heat/etc. from the moment the disconnection happened, especially as time goes on? Remember the game is still running and continuing just fine for player B. Are you going off the idea that NPCs can currently clone themselves and "reset" their health/ammo/etc., so players should too?

Fourth, even ignoring those issues, they would never see or detect each other from 15-30km, so what's the point of even putting them back in the same instance?

Fifth, being in the same supercruise instance already is how the game works *if* both players are connected to the same server. We all know there's still ongoing issues with instancing and networking and so on, though.

Other options could include, a relogin timeout if after combat logging they rejoin Open. This could increase with the frequency of combat logs. Starting off at 1 minute and doubling for every combat log in an hour and halving every two hours.

Nope. That's back to preventing people from playing the game, that's not a real solution. All that achieves is exclusion and vindication, nothing constructive is obtained.

replacing a departing player with an equivalent NPC would involve true duplication and introduce a definite exploit potential that would dwarf any current potential exploit that I am aware of.

Nothing is being duplicated, though, not really. All Player B would see is the ship triangle change from a hollow shape to a solid shape (and presumbly notice the ship behave like an NPC ship and not so much like a player-controlled ship). Everything about the ship's status and physical orientation would (rather, must) be preserved from the moment the disconnection happens, possibly with a 'lag' of a few moments between the initial disconnection & the server detecting it & the game clients reacting accordingly, but nothing that would grind anybody's gears.

Given that Player B is still in a normal space instance, there is no way for Player A to drop back in and create an issue - and even if they could, it would just be both players & some NPC in a ship that happens to look exactly like Player A's ship. If Player B meets Player A in supercruise again by some miracle of timing and networking, it's up to them whether they want to reinitiate hostilities for round 2.

I've done my best to think this through. I have yet to see how any exploit could take place with this.

- - - Updated - - -

I wonder.. How many people would kill Clean Pilots if the murderer gained a 'fine' (not a bounty, a fine that has to be paid personally and is not forgotten for 90 days) equal to twice the Rebuy cost or the % of rebuy/balance of the victim(up to the full ship's cost), whichever is greater.

<> Example: A cobra with a rebuy of 500k, flown by a Clean Pilot with a balance of 1,500,000 would cost a the murderer 1,000,000credits or 33%(up to 10,000,000credits) of their current Credit Balance.

Most importantly, the Cobra pilot would be shown on the Rebuy screen how large the Fine the Pilots Federation(Assuming they are the insurance company, if not just change the name) placed onto their attacker was.

This would completely kill Powerplay & role-play related combat.

I think everyone needs to get away from thinking about "punishment", and instead focus on the issue of one's target just magically winking out of existence, with nothing to show for the time and effort put into finding that target - if that target, instead, had persistence even if a player disconnects, then what problem could anyone possibly have with combat logging, at least where irrational vindication isn't involved?

 

[lenna]

Alas, PvP is common and mostly meaningless... It's all a bit of a mess IMHO!

Two years in and the depth of PvP basically = randomly interdicting other CMDRs who generally are not at the time interested or equipped for PvP, and mindlessly shooting/destroying them. Is this the depth of gameplay we envisage?

Given the nature of the Elite games, I think that is all that can be reasonably expected if you are a PvP aggressor. There is one case though that you have not mentioned, PvP bounty hunters. Given the nature of Elite though, hunting down Wanted CMDRs is not likely to be an easy task except in certain areas where CMDRs are engaging in blockades.

Elite is not Eve and should not be considered in the same breath as it IMO. If anyone is after a real PvP focused space flight game then perhaps Star Citizen will (should it ever be completed) be more to their liking.

 

[Jack Schitt]

Bottom line is whether the other player has a rebuy or not, it has no impact upon you, your game, and the gains made by doing combat.

Yeah, I do understand what you're saying. Upon disconnection give the other client authority to spawn a replacement NPC and allow the player to continue the attack. As a technical exercise it might even be workable.

The problem is that the consequences of PVP combat go beyond salt mining, and any attempt to replace a disconnected player with an NPC opens up the possibility of metagaming and exploitation. A few examples off the top of my head:

• If the disconnected player was flying a heavily laden T9, does the other player get to steal their cargo? If so, what happens to the disconnected player's cargo if it's stolen, or indeed if his ship is destroyed? Does it disappear when he next logs in, which might encourage forced disconnections for lulz? Or do both players get to keep it, generating wealth from nowhere and opening up an exploit?
  
  
• If the disconnected player was carrying Powerplay merits do they get erased upon his next login if the other player successfully destroyed his doppelganger? If so, it invites networking shenanigans to forcibly disconnect players from opposing PP factions to achieve an easier kill. If not, it negates PP-based PVP because everyone will disconnect to retain their merits and interdicting opposing CMDRs will offer no guarantee of affecting the PP outcome.
  
  
• If the disconnected player is carrying a bounty what happens when the NPC replacement is destroyed?
  
  • Victorious player collects bounty and bounty is removed from disconnected player? Will be exploited as a Rebuy-free means of clearing a bounty.
    
    
  • Victorious player collects bounty and bounty remains on disconnected player? Will be exploited by friends disconnecting from each other and claiming "free" NPC bounties.
    
    
  • Victorious player collects no bounty and bounty remains on disconnected player? Ruins PVP bounty-hunting.

I do like the idea of maintaining continuity of experience when a player disconnects, but there are legitimate game mechanics that require an unambiguous resolution to a PVP combat scenario. Which makes it very difficult to deal with combat loggers without opening up exploits that might encourage even more people to turn to it.

 

[lenna]

...

If they choose not to rejoin Open then that is their choice, no one is forcing them to play in Open in the first place and I see no reason why anyone should either. However, if they did it would allow for easier rematches.

As for the relog-in timeout, that would only apply to Combat Loggers for Open so it would not totally stop them from playing the game it would just perhaps limit the potential for them to disrupt players who are willing to accept whatever events happen in Open.

As for the replacing of Player A with equivalent NPC A, it would involve duplication since it was obvious that the original proposal was for the in-game benefits of killing the replacement to be equivalent to that of killing the corresponding player... and since it would be unreasonable for the corresponding player to incur the corresponding losses/gains of the surrogate NPC then there would naturally be some duplication of bounties and/or cargo. It has massive potential for exploitation and it is not my fault if anyone is too short sighted not to see the potential issues - it is plain as day to me.

Surely the main goal of any of the proposed measures is to try and minimise Combat Logging in the first place, not to penalise players for leaving the game regardless of the circumstances. It seems to me that some seem to be too focused on the wrong things. If anyone is willing to accept an NPC surrogate for a logged out player then perhaps they need to focus on NPC targets in the first place. At least that way they would not get wound up because any given player is not happy to act as a target and be content for another hostile player.

 

[Kriidah]

This would completely kill Powerplay & role-play related combat.

I think everyone needs to get away from thinking about "punishment", and instead focus on the issue of one's target just magically winking out of existence, with nothing to show for the time and effort put into finding that target - if that target, instead, had persistence even if a player disconnects, then what problem could anyone possibly have with combat logging, at least where irrational vindication isn't involved?

Powerplay Targets are not 'Clean' they are Enemies. That is something completely different. Also.. Roleplayed combat in the way of randomly killing people who have no offense? Why don't you, you know.. target modules (such as the engines and cargo hatch) to weaken them for hatchbreakers or even take them down to 10% hull. See them again 10% hull until they end up paying protection money. You don't gain from corpses really, you gain from intimidation.

Also 'Effort of finding that target' you mean.. waiting for them to pop into system and tailing them for a few seconds for a target you.. don't know the cargo of, and doesn't have a bounty to pay you for of which the CLogger often are in ships that can't fight back significantly? So.. What is this 'effort' you are exactly talking about again?

 

[lenna]

What is this 'effort' you are exactly talking about again?

Some canny pirates might try following targets using the wake scanner and then only interdict them in anarchy systems (there by avoiding bounties in the first place). Whether this is practical or not is another matter but perhaps it should be possible (if it is not - which I believe it is, not interested in piracy myself so I don't know).

 

[Misty_Dark]

I wonder.. How many people would kill Clean Pilots if the murderer gained a 'fine' (not a bounty, a fine that has to be paid personally and is not forgotten for 90 days) equal to twice the Rebuy cost or the % of rebuy/balance of the victim(up to the full ship's cost), whichever is greater.

<> Example: A cobra with a rebuy of 500k, flown by a Clean Pilot with a balance of 1,500,000 would cost a the murderer 1,000,000credits or 33%(up to 10,000,000credits) of their current Credit Balance.

Most importantly, the Cobra pilot would be shown on the Rebuy screen how large the Fine the Pilots Federation(Assuming they are the insurance company, if not just change the name) placed onto their attacker was.

I have been thinking about similiar things.


You have the clean part done, so the player cannot be wanted when we do this. Wanted players are open game, when they are in a system where they are wanted.
Also we have to take PowerPlay into account. as if you enter Powerplay, you are basically agreen that part of the space is going to be place filled with hostiles. So if you are in a hostile system based on your Powerplay allegiance, then a player part of the allegiance of the system you are in can hunt you with no negatives, despite you are being "clean". as powerplay add another criteria to judge if you are actually clean in the system or not.


And the fine should be based on the rebuy costs of the most expensive ship. So if I'm in a big corvette killing players in small ships, then the fine is based on my rebuy costs, and if I go after someone with a very expensive ship in a less expensive ship, but more fit to the situation, then I get "rewarded" with the fine based on the targets ship instead. If it should be the full rebuy, percent of the rebuy costs, or rebuy cost plus a percentage. I have no clear idea on, But it needs to way more than 6000 cr you get today for killing a clean ship...


Also security should arrive alot sooner in security system and in matching ships to what you are flying, and the higher security the system is, the more ships are being sent (and the base count is your ship plus all membvers of the wing you might be part of)... so lets say Low = x1 ships, Medium = x2.5 ships, and high = x5 ships. High security should be very very dangerous to be wanted in.

And also, if you have a fine (ie being wanted in a system) in a security system they should be after you, and also if you try to dock you need to take extra steos to avoid getting scanned (the higher secirity system, the faster you will be scanned) or else you should get denied to dock... Being wanted should be hugel negative thing, expecially in a high security system.


And now that we greatly increases the fine you collect for killing clean players, then this should open up for some some intense bounty hunting on wanted players! And those fines would never go away unless these two circumstances are meet
* You are killed by a player who claims your bounty, if he does not claim it, he get nothing and you bounty stays...
* If the player who killed you claimed your bounty, you now get the option to clear your name, by paying 50% of the bounty, and this must be done at a station controlled by the faction you are wanted in. or pay the 25% extra to do it elsewhere (forgot what the function is called), and if you fail todo this, you are forced to pay the full amount of these fines the next time you are killed! Before the rebuy of your ship... And if you cannot cover the fines, then you have to sell your stored ships untill you have paid your fine...

So you now have the option after your bounty have been claimed to pay 50% of your bounty to clear your name, or use middlemen and pay 75%, and if you are killed before clearing your name (regardless on how you die), you are now forced to pay the full 100% fine before rebuy of your ship, and if do not have enough funds, you will get the option sell ships to cover your fine, and this goes on untill your fine is paid in full.


Other things to consider is what todo with materials and data, if you cannot pay your fine, should those be confiscated? Perhaps based on a % on how much you could not pay, so if you cannot pay 505 of your fine, then 50% all your material is lost, and 50% of your data is lost. So if you have 1000 material, then 500 would be lost, what should you loose? well we do it like, start from the top (or bottom), reduce one material and go on to the next, and when we get to the end, we start over, and we repaeat this untill we have removed 500 materials. And samge the method is used for data. So this makes you to keep the materials and data you have the most of.

Then we have modules storage, same method as for material and data, but these are not things that stacks, so we simply remove a random objects untill the % is reached, so if you had 60 modules stored and failed to pay 50% of the fine, then 30 modules would get randomly selected and deleted.


So in worst case scenario, a PvP killer, who mainly hunts Clean players, can loose all of his ships and a big portion of his material, data and stored modules, so even if he knows about all the tricks to earn money fast, he still has todo alot of work with engineers... and collect materials again
So noone is stopping anybody to be a huge * in the universe, but this time it comes with some "huge" drawbacks, and as long as you are willing pay the price to be a huge * in the universe, then go ahead, but if you think this is way to harsh, then perhaps you should stop being such a crying carebear....and mount up to face the results of your actions... there is always solo if you cannot handle being in Open play...

 

[NeilF]

This thread depresses me in so many ways:-
1) The fact we're even in this state after two years.
2) Some people seemingly see mindless destruction as some positive element to the game, and cannot imagine maybe, just maybe, the game could (should) offer something more involved and constructive as regard PvP.

If FD were to "address combal logging" before bringing other areas of the game into line, it would be a step back for the game IMHO. What is seriously gained by individuals in dedicated, engineered ships interdicting and attacking other CMDRs simply to destroy them. How is this adding any depth or interest to the game? Surely the game can offer something more intelligent and meaningful for players interested in PvP?

The game IMHO is getting more and more toxic. ie: More and more CMDRs see interdicting other CMDRs (who at the time are unwilling to fight, and indeed unable to fight) as their only entertainment in the game. It's vapid and counter productive.

I suspect until FD some coming down hard on Pilot Federation destruction, start offering some actual intelligent (legal) PvP gameplay, and give some piracy some long long overdue love, this matter will only get worse.

The only people I can envisage suggesting combat logging should get addressed first are:-
1) Individuals who actually get enjoyment out of aggravating other players. I'd imagine the idea of players being penalised for depriving them of their lolz would be very appealing.
2) Pirates who do not like their victims combat logging. I've encountered this, but not too often too be honest. But I suspect it's growing if only because of individuals getting more and frustrated by the mindless gankers, and assume pirates are interdicting for a mindless kill.

 

[Kriidah]

Some canny pirates might try following targets using the wake scanner and then only interdict them in anarchy systems (there by avoiding bounties in the first place). Whether this is practical or not is another matter but perhaps it should be possible (if it is not - which I believe it is).

Which patch allowed us to use Wake Scanners in Supercruise? I might of missed it but last time I checked you couldn't. Though with such a fringe chance, not sure what would be a good reward for proper pirates such as that unless..
Idea..

• A new 'Tagging' tool is introduced.
• This doesn't count as an act of aggression when fired. Can only attach to one ship at a time.
• If the tagged ship has been part of your wing or friends list in 3 months the Tag shorts out.
  • If the [Tagged] ship is interdicted successfully a beacon continues until the [Tagged] Ship or the Pirate Wakes.
• If the [Tagged] ship disconnects before waking, the Pirate is given a 'Tip Off Mission'
  • That was looking good, not sure how he hid his wake signal. You scratch my back, and I'll scratch your's. I'll have someone look into how he did it, in the meantime check something out for me, there should be another [X] coming through this sector soon. I don't care if you want what they offer you, just make sure you scare them but -Don't- kill them. Hard getting credits out of corpses.
• There will be a mission target jumping into system for the pirate to interdict which will try to run off.
  • Once the Target Ship's shields are down they drop cargo[/INDENT]
  • The pilot will gain a 'mission update' with a bribe if the Target Ship is damaged down to 10% Hull or if either Drive begins to Malfunction, begging for their lives.
• Killing them results in this kind of mission not being offered again for 7 days.

 

[Mikey2305]

X-terminator... well said. That really ought to be the last word on the subject but i suspect it won't be

Rep sir

 

[Spiridon]

Aw man OP, why all the bad karma on FD just because they do not answer to you nor anyone. Fact is dude - grown ups lie because! This is just a forum and it is not FDEVs. I hate to beat on those that feed us but man this sure is stirring crap. So what? The game can not legally kick buyers nor discriminate against the many exploits. Who cares? You got bleeding Private Mode to do what you want with who you like. I personally hate this free to do as you please in OPEN but hey I don't blame FD for not having any interest in reading every dig at them. So things are simply not possible to be managed and to not make mistakes against innocent players is the priorty - i.e. accidentally Shadow Banning players for genuine reasons. They gave us the right to be free - the right to combat log and report those that you believe to be bad dude. Seriously though, how bleeding bad is pulling a cord on your own PC? OMG!
Is all you done dude is investigate and then read all 2388 posts in your own thread. Get a life please

I approve every line.

A massive rep.

 

[StevieG]

Once upon a time a pirate/pvp/griefer logged out on me and went to group mode to grind their PP credits rather than stay in open where I could kill him. The pirate/pvp/griefer still flies with the OP CMDR group. Why I ask myself isnt he shadow banned for running off to group mode and spoiling my fun!>!>!>!>!>!>!

Drama queens, always have been always will be.

 

[TomP]

Once upon a time a pirate/pvp/griefer logged out on me and went to group mode to grind their PP credits rather than stay in open where I could kill him. The pirate/pvp/griefer still flies with the OP CMDR group. Why I ask myself isnt he shadow banned for running off to group mode and spoiling my fun!>!>!>!>!>!>!

Drama queens, always have been always will be.

Not Commander Sundae again? Or is there another logger in the SDC?!

 

[JosiahD]

Alas, PvP is common and mostly meaningless... It's all a bit of a mess IMHO!

Two years in and the depth of PvP basically = randomly interdicting other CMDRs who generally are not at the time interested or equipped for PvP, and mindlessly shooting/destroying them. Is this the depth of gameplay we envisage?

Agreed. But....but....there is CQC.....(TIC).
.
CQC should have been ample to provide a PvP fix except it doesn't enable certain PvPer types to freely destroy soft targets and harvest as much 'salt' (ie some PvP types can't cope with a level playing field)......but at least there's no consequences as such for either party.

 

[Ozram]

Agreed. But....but....there is CQC.....(TIC).
.
CQC should have been ample to provide a PvP fix except it doesn't enable certain PvPer types to freely destroy soft targets and harvest as much 'salt' (ie some PvP types can't cope with a level playing field)......but at least there's no consequences as such for either party.

To be fair, CQC is terribly supported. It was a good start when it came out, but no QOL changes have been made to the matchmaker menu and the 3 modes have not had any revamp in some time. I really enjoyed CQC but it got harder and harder to find a match so I've pretty much given up.

 

[Spiridon]

Agreed. But....but....there is CQC.....(TIC).
.
CQC should have been ample to provide a PvP fix except it doesn't enable certain PvPer types to freely destroy soft targets and harvest as much 'salt' (ie some PvP types can't cope with a level playing field)......but at least there's no consequences as such for either party.

In CQC you can't harass people. No harmless Haulers there. They don't like it.

 

[Faybs]

Jeez this thread is still going on?