An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[Knightshark]

However, the thread topic is Combat Logging, hence the focus of my post.

It's simple, if you 'fix' CL (prevent/punish it) without fixing C&P, then Open will be dead for good. If you fix C&P first, Solo/Private players might even consider moving to Open as new default, and then CL might even become a non issue (because there are enough other players to harass, and not everyone CLs).

 

[StuartGT]

Public belittlement is apparently fine. It's been quite the reminder of why I barely look at reddit

"We do not permit our forums to be used for personal attacks, and/or harassment of others" is one of the forum rules.

Repeated public belittlement of sections of the community due to their chosen playstyle (PVPers, PKers) is precisely what I see occur here by some members of the modteam & community - i.e. SDC are to blame for all Combat Logging - which I find disappointing. I'll call it out when necessary, which isn't against the forum rules.

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It's simple, if you 'fix' CL (prevent/punish it) without fixing C&P, then Open will be dead for good. If you fix C&P first, Solo/Private players might even consider moving to Open as new default, and then CL might even become a non issue (because there are enough other players to harass, and not everyone CLs).

Why will Open be dead for good?

 

[xdeath]

When i see moderators publicly single out sections of the community (deservedly or not), i feel it's important to publicly call them out on it.

You asked me once, why I thought reddit was Toxic. You answered it yourself.

Publicly calling someone out serves nothing but to humiliate them and set the "reddit mob" on them. While you may see this as a good thing, I see it disrespectful, and I think it sours the community as whole. It silences most voices, and puts others on little shoutboxes to continually direct the "mob" to their agenda.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

*Turns off Xbox*

Sorry what now?

Aye, you can't stop people task killing, but if people understood they were being waylaid by a gentlemen cut-purse and not a murder hobo, they might be prepared to give up 20t of Imp Slaves or whatever... I'm not a Pirate and I don't play in Open, so the only ships trying to burn me up for my lovely cargo are NPC...

 

[Knightshark]

Why will Open be dead for good?

Because there will be no way to avoid unwanted PvP and the risk is death and potential loss of hours/weeks of material farming.
It will become a hardcore, cutthroat PvP place. You want that? Open a Anti-Moebius group where CL is punished by ban.

 

[DaylightM]

"We do not permit our forums to be used for personal attacks, and/or harassment of others" is one of the forum rules.

Repeated public belittlement of sections of the community due to their chosen playstyle (PVPers, PKers) is precisely what I see occur here by some members of the modteam & community - i.e. SDC are to blame for all Combat Logging - which I find disappointing. I'll call it out when necessary, which isn't against the forum rules.

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Why will Open be dead for good?

but mocking and belittling on youtube/reddit/social-media is perfectly fine..... whilst they are crying wolf about being "attacked" on a public forum for their playstyle is a no no

that is what I took from your "statement"

and yes if this is not resolved then open will just be gank mode (not that it isnt already) ...... but there will still be thousands of players in private groups enjoying playing THE GAME

 

[Forumate]

Its implied when you play the game that combat is a part of it. Indeed, the game has a ranking system based upon mass murder, where we pilot ever increasingly heavily armed spaceships. To this end its hard to understand why folks go out of their way to only play as a non-combatant. Thats a choice of course but expecting others to not shoot at you is baffling particuarly when the game is set in a cutthroat galaxy, set against a backdrop of raw anarchy and powerplays.

As for the purpose, its largely the only thing that gives meaning to a style of play. The NPCs are just bots and destroying them is a means to an end, its certainly not a rewarding or challenging experience. Its also a multiplayer game and conflict between players creates for an interesting dynamism and spontaneity that the NPCs don't offer. Frontier have sadly gone out of their way to remove meaningful player adversity from the game as much as they can without actually making it impossible. Many of the guys from SDC used to try and be pirates but the game makes that impossible, and with solo and pg theres no need to folks to require escorts for there trade journey, and no eco system for players to become player bounty hunters. Instead its just full on hatred towards anyone who shoots at someone else.

DB on his anti griefer crusade has ironically created players who are disaffecetd, have been battered with years of verbal abuse and mudslnging which has maligned their style of play, and them personally. Imagine, if you as an explorer recieved constant abuse because of how you were playing the game. Every time you looked at the forums there was a thread on how you were killing the game, so on and so forth. This has created a lot of resentment. I've no doubt it plays its part in some motivation.

Nevertheless there is a short story you should read that was linked to me on reddit. I happen to think its an excellent and amusing read, but it shows how one experience can be interpreted in totally different ways, and I think it might be the nub of the endless conflict here over the game:

The Veil of Madness, really loved reading this:

Spoiler

https://i.imgur.com/Fs0nNbA.jpg

From a reddit thread here: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/56yt5x/in_the_brabenverse_space_crazy_is_real_and/

That all said bud, its a cutthroat galaxy.. What do you expect? Flowers and a big hug? I tend to save that for my girlfriend.

You never said why you think killing explorers and traders is fun. What do you enjoy about it?

 

[steenpass]

Do not allow players to log off when in danger. Remove the disgraceful exit via timer.
Whenever the application is closed while the player is in danger he has to pay the insurance sum.

You accept the occasional unjustified penality and escape this swamp. I'd do it anytime.

 

[StuartGT]

You asked me once, why I thought reddit was Toxic. You answered it yourself.

Publicly calling someone out serves nothing but to humiliate them and set the "reddit mob" on them. While you may see this as a good thing, I see it disrespectful, and I think it sours the community as whole. It silences most voices, and puts others on little shoutboxes to continually direct the "mob" to their agenda.

Publicly calling people out for disrespecting members of the community shows the overall community that all voices are equally deserving of respect.

On Reddit we moderate posts & comments that contain disrespect, as it's one of our defined rules. CMDRs who are rude to others soon learn to not be if they want their opinions to be seen by others.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Why?

Uh, the immediate text after that sentence spelled it out. And in detail.

Agreed, and I didn't say it shouldn't. However, the thread topic is Combat Logging, hence the focus of my post.

And you cannot solve "Combat Logging" as an isolated Thing, precisely because Combat Logging is a symptom of a problem with the game mechanics and design.

 

[Truesilver]

I still think blocking would work. Because it´s the same bunch of players all the time. And if a Noob gets ganked by them it will be pretty easy to use the blocking function on the ganker. You shouldn´t have to read forums to learn that, it´s easy to fit into the game menu. Funny thing is, it´s already here, just lacking functionality. Within a month the gankers should be pretty isolated, damned to gank themselves.

Charles, I responded to your earlier proposal as follows. Of course you may have seen and not been persuaded but just in case it was lost in the melee:

Overnight the principal sidey-slaughterers would block Adle's Armada, invasive PvP-ers would block system defenders and Powerplay merit-grinders would block Powerplay attackers, while Powerplay underminers would block defenders.

'User-defined Open' would give the PvP bottom-feeders what they've always wanted: a Galaxy containing only them and PvE randoms who don't read forums or know anyone's names.

The reality is that only the truly unlucky are going to get randomly killed by the same guy twice. There are 1.5 million players, effectively providing an endless supply of fresh meat to the random playa killa.

Block lists would finally remove the possibility of any kind of defence, by PvP-ers, of other players or of their own systems or Powerplay factions, or other interests against other PvP-ers ... because the aggressors would block the defenders and be left with a bully's paradise.

 

[Toumal]

TBH, the last thing the game needs are the doors to get locked while the house is still on fire.

Sort out Crime and Punishment... THEN sort out Combat Logging. The former may even reduce the latter!

Sir, I have to arrest you for making too much sense in a single post

I completely agree. Crime and Punishment are a much bigger open wound. And clearly, the guy who bought a T6 and has gotten pushed to the brink by a string of bad luck isn't so much the problematic combat logger as the rich kid mining salt with his corvette, going after non-winged unshielded explorer vessels or trying to destroy ships carrying hard-earned engineer commodities, yet he himself combat logs the moment he is forced into a fight with even chances.

These kids don't deserve to moan about combat logging. I've had my share of disappointment watching a commander combat log instead of fighting or jumping out. I play almost exclusively in open. Combat logging is a problem, but it's the smaller issue here.


@BrettC: There's been some excellent suggestions about crime and punishment. In particular, fixes for the sidewinder bounty reset. I think you guys should look into those, they are definitely not terribly difficult to implement and would add consequence to people's actions.

 

[Alonzo Solace]

Problem with developing a full crime and punishment system is this: Everyone has their own idea of it. Some was it strict, some want a 50/50, some want a loopholed system, some desire for things to remain as is, some want a system that is beyond what i personally would define as fun.

Brett, I read a summary of your remarks over on Reddit, and I want to say thank you for attempting to add balance to a discussion. I'm sure there are players who don't agree who are raking you over the coals right now, but I think it's a brave (and important) thing to do: weigh in on a difficult issue. So thank you for doing so.

Personally I think a more impactful crime and punishment system would be good. It doesn't make sense for a station to let you land if you're a wanted criminal, for example, but the ramifications of changing that could be big. Maybe a softly-softly approach to tweaking it over time.

Anyway, thanks again for responding. I hope you're not getting sh*t on too much from any angle.

 

[Theodrid]

"We do not permit our forums to be used for personal attacks, and/or harassment of others" is one of the forum rules.

Repeated public belittlement of sections of the community due to their chosen playstyle (PVPers, PKers) is precisely what I see occur here by some members of the modteam & community - i.e. SDC are to blame for all Combat Logging - which I find disappointing. I'll call it out when necessary, which isn't against the forum rules.

This is directed at you G and Cosmos, can we cut the implication that the poor PVP/PK community are the ones bearing the brunt of abuse here, on Reddit or anywhere else.

For every wrongful cry of 'griefer' there is one of carebear
For every shout of phycho there is a disdainful coward comment
For every ganker comment a forum dad one ain't far behind
For every bored child insult there is one of 'cheater hiding in solo/pg'

I could go on for ages but the point is made, stop making out as if it's one way traffic.

 

[xdeath]

Publicly calling people out for disrespecting members of the community shows the overall community that all voices are equally deserving of respect.

No it doesn't, but if you want to continue seeing it that way, by all means. I doubt I could convince you otherwise.
I was telling you why I think it was toxic.

 

[iFred]

Why will Open be dead for good?

Because the PvPers ruin it by themselves. A) when they shoot players just for fun, B) when they shoot players that are flying a not-combat-fitted/engineered ship and C) with every thread about combat logging.

Look, most players are pretty smart - they read about Combat Logging and look into the facts - it turns out that 9 out of 10 times it was unwanted PvP. Next time they simply dont play open.

BTW, I am happy to see moderators have an opinion also. Most of them are volunteers and they are also playing the game. They should tell us what they think.

 

[Imo]

What you can do against "combat logging"?

* stop using phantasy phrases
* stop brain logging

Life can be so easy.

 

[StuartGT]

but mocking and belittling on youtube/reddit/social-media is perfectly fine..... whilst they are crying wolf about being "attacked" on a public forum for their playstyle is a no no

that is what I took from your "statement"

I suppose you see what you want to see. Belittling (disrespect) on the ED Reddit is removed when it is disrespectful to members of the community. Inter-group banter is allowed, e.g. SDC vs Mobius, AA vs EIC, Power vs Power. I'm not a moderator of Youtube/SocialMedia (do they have mods?) so I can't possibly comment on that.

and yes if this is not resolved then open will just be gank mode (not that it isnt already) ...... but there will still be thousands of players in private groups enjoying playing THE GAME

I refer you to my previous comment (there are 200k+ active players):

While it's understandable that you won't have noticed as it's not an issue that affects Private Group, but PKer groups such as SDC et al are not the only proponents of harsh punishments for Combat Logging. How else could the Investigation Post have been voted up so high? (The original OP on Reddit gained 1k+ upvotes, almost 1400 comments in 36hr, and gilded 5 times)

You may have heard that the newbie sector, CGs, and other galaxy hotspots are the hunting grounds of the hundreds, if not thousands, of non-affiliated Player Killers and griefers. While groups like Adles Armada, Iridium Wing, etc aim to protect CMDRs from such PKers, they are powerless as the vast majority of their targets task-kill once interdicted. This scares off new CMDRs more than any activities by SDC et al, who predominantly attack "high salt" targets and locations for lulz.

Harsh punishment for Combat Logging helping the in-game "policing" by the friendly Player Groups is needed as a deterrent against those PKers continuing their "game killing" activities. This is the bigger picture many don't see as they argue about whether Combat Logging against SDC is justified or not.

Not to mention player pirates who have found their preferred playstyle ruined.

Proper Crime & Punishment mechanics are also required of course, but won't solve this issue alone.

SDC have around 50 members btw. Mobius has nearly 30k. Both are small fractions of the overall 200k+ playerbase.

 

[Cosmos]

You never said why you think killing explorers and traders is fun. What do you enjoy about it?

I look upon them as players, not traders or explorers. I'm certainly not the most hostile of players though. Nevertheless at times I choose to prune away the wastrels and pwn the worthless. Not me of course, its my commander alter ego [haha]

I'm an Elite combat pilot.. I shoot things and they go boom! If the game allowed for it, I would probably have become a bounty hunter and gone after the 'bad guys', but its not worth my time. Braben killed meaningful PvP because of his views over 'griefing'.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

DB on his anti griefer crusade has ironically created players who are disaffected, who have been battered with years of verbal abuse and mudslnging (yes here on this forum) which has maligned their style of play, and them personally.

Yeah, nothing they could do about it. poor puppies. Nastly little DB.

They started off meaning so well, but this forum warped their feeble little minds.

Every time you looked at the forums there was a thread on how you were killing the game, so on and so forth.

Solo players are hiding, cowards, cheating the BSG, etc etc

That kind of abuse?