An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[Stigbob]

cowards who COMBAT LOG should not just be banned but should also never EVER be allowed to play the game again

I just got a black screen game hang in a combat zone, I had to end the process with task manager. Should I now be perma banned ?.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

cowards who COMBAT LOG should not just be banned but should also never EVER be allowed to play the game again

I actually have no beef with those angry at the combat loggers... i can totally see their point.... but CL-ing is no better or no worse than suicidewindering to escape from bounty hunters as well as the various other exploits people do in the game . So long as you hold all players to the same standard and not just cherry picking one of many exploits.

 

[Stigbob]

Yes. And your computer confiscated and your dog shot. Just so that you know how serious the situation is...

But I was very brave about it. I pressed the right keys in a forceful way whilst sitting up in a commanding pose......my lip didn't even wobble.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

cowards who COMBAT LOG should not just be banned but should also never EVER be allowed to play the game again

I hate all sweeping generalisations...

 

[Leo Sagan]

I'll post in this thread only once because this whole mess makes me sad ...

FD, seriously, *you* insisted on making this game a multiplayer thing : *you* have to dedicate some time (=money) to the networking problems, *including* CL.

There are *countless* posts on the forum suggesting how. I know you're scared, but the least you can do is *try*.

Haters, white knights, regular users, ganked noobs and *even* SDC's trolls, they all have a bloody point. In the end, it all boils down to this : it's about time you start *working on it*.

For real this time ! Stop pretending, put a few good coders on it and stop delaying.

 

[d8veh]

I just got a black screen game hang in a combat zone, I had to end the process with task manager. Should I now be perma banned ?.

No that's FD combat logging. Did it happen when the greens were ganking every red that spawned?

 

[Stigbob]

No that's FD combat logging. Did it happen when the greens were ganking every red that spawned?

It's worse than that numbers were about even and I was taking hull damage at the time, my shields were still up but I'd flubbed my heat management.

Does this mean I can't get into Valhalla ?.

 

[Javert]

There are *countless* posts on the forum suggesting how. I know you're scared, but the least you can do is *try*.

Many of these posts are made by people who know very little if anything about networking and network code, nor do they have any visibility on the source code of the game so they don't actually know what the limitations are. Even if someone is a networking expert, they still don't know the details of the design on the game.

Now, FD are unlikely to tell us the details of how their networking code works. Why? Because it will be mercilessly exploited by certain groups who are out to cheat in the game.

The networking code in ED is actually quite a miracle that it even works at all - it's actually an amazing achievement to do that using a P2P architecture. They chose to do that because they didn't want the game to be a subscription game. It's not perfect and it never will be, but it's a very elegant solution to avoid having a massive back end infrastructure that would require a subscription.

I am pretty sure they are working on the networking bugs that people have been reporting recently - I'd be very surprised if they weren't.

As regards combat logging specifically, if FD had a foolproof way of determining who is at fault when there is a connection drop, they would have done something about it by now. The problem is that I suspect it's impossible to be 100% sure which player's connection dropped first in some cases, and even if you can, it's impossible to know whether it was deliberate.

I suspect the only option truly open to them is to implement a guilty till proven innocent system i.e. if your connection drops, you ship is deemed destroyed, and it's up to you to prove that it was an accident. Some people believe this is a good solution, and frankly I don't have a big issue with trying it. I've also stated that if that is done, it should include some kind of "lives" system where you can get a certain number of get out of jail cards to use when it's truly a dropped connection, without having to call support. I see this as kind of like the Sky TV system or Itunes, where you can reset all your devices once per month or suchlike, but you can only do it once a month or x times a year. With this system, if you lost your ship due to a connection dropout that's not your fault, you can use one of your lives.

Many have demanded that your ship stays there in the instance for 60 seconds or so if you log off, but FD have pretty much said this is not technically possible in a foolproof way and non exploitable way, and even if it was, it would be a much more difficult way of achieving the exact same result as above i.e. your ship will be destroyed.

Of course, I don't know whether even this is technically possible, and also, it might be exploitable where the attacker somehow can cause the defender's connection to drop. Given groups like SDC's prior statements, they would probably seek to exploit this as well, "in order to highlight the issues with the game".

What they could also do is implement the above system for a trial period - once this system is in place, a lot less people would combat log on purpose, so they would then get a clearer picture of how much of it was deliberate versus not the fault of the logger. Part of the problem at the moment is that there is no clear picture of how many logouts are deliberate combat logging, how many are valid logouts using the game menu, and how many are glitches.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

I suffered a server disconnect last night while fighting an NPC.

I was winning.

Does this mean I should be banned?

 

[CMDR Tom D]

I suffered a server disconnect last night while fighting an NPC.

I was winning.

Does this mean I should be banned?

Burnt at the stake. bet you didn't expect that!
No one expects the spanish inquisition!

 

[Deleted member 110222]

Burnt at the stake. bet you didn't expect that!
No one expects the spanish inquisition!

Uninstalled.

/jk

 

[Arguendo]

Me: I'd like to perma ban people who make hyperbolic statements in large green letters in the forums.

That person actually made my ignore list grow from 1 to 2. That's like remote Combat Logging, right?

Virtual rep as I apparently have to share the love a bit.

Got you covered Ozram

If I've missed the point I'm afraid I'm still not seeing the point I'm supposed to have missed. As far as I can see the_Monk didn't suggest that making players immortal was the solution, Arguendo didn't suggest that a criminality system would prevent players from hunting other Commanders, and I didn't suggest that the lack of a criminality system is a justification for combat logging.

Like I said, give this one some time. They're new at this, but will get there eventually. Logic is not appropriate at this point in time. It may be later, we'll see.

 

[CMDR Tom D]

Uninstalled.

 

[V'larr]

Psychological vote manipulation is not allowed.

ಠ_ಠ

What do you call the "5 golds" and all the upvotes for that "exposure" of "FD lies" thread?

Sorry, but I'm able to read between the lines. One look at the IPs of where the alt accounts were in relation to the accounts calling for a support investigation would tell any member of Support everything they possibly need to know about what's going on - let alone any association with the SDC private group.

And they certainly don't have the time to sit and watch video after video after video after video on Youtube when they could be responding to actual tickets and bugs that need actual attention (and also generally can be responded to far faster than 15-30 minutes at a time).

Let's also bear in mind that this time of year, especially with Steam or XBox sales in the mix, combined with the fallout influx from the NMS community, means there's bound to be a far higher influx of those tickets for Elite's support team to try and catch up on. They've even posted recently (on Reddit, too) about how they know there's a backlog and they're doing what they can about it.


Dale put it succinctly with his post, but....

The horse is dead and beaten with this issue. Yes, further improvements to how the games works can be made, but I would like to think you could see that thread - as most are relating to "combat logging" and "Solo vs Open" - was clearly made to stir up a rabble-minded crapstorm, not to garner any sort of positive constructivism.

Anyhow, continuing onwards:

[*]Be respectful – Treat other CMDRs well to ensure a lasting, peaceful, and productive relationship.
[*]No hate speech or inciting conflict – You are free to offer your opinion in the local space-bar respectfully, but comments intended to demean a group, incite conflict, and the pejorative use of slurs are disallowed.

Pretty much why the SDC players in question are banned from these forums, and again, why I & others wonder why they are comparitively welcomed on Reddit (though I, having been elsewhere on Reddit, am fully aware it's generally a "looser" place of discussion, where sense & reason is determined more by popular vote than moderation - which has its benefits but oftentimes means that sense and reason becomes lost, hidden, or ignored in the noise...not unlike this last US election, but I'm straying off-topic).

Why should we moderate members of SDC any differently - because they have a controversial playstyle and enjoy drama?

Because what they do and what they've "stood for" have little-to-nothing to do with orthodox definitions of "roleplay". The Powerplay-related groups you just mentioned there do it for playful banter - even grudge-bearing comes down to doing things for fun - whereas "SDC-like" behavior (it's worth pointing out that I can define a behavior as "SDC-like" and expect anyone reading to know exactly what I mean) is done to rustle jimmies and have a laugh, or something. I can't really relate, so I can only guess.

Such players thrive in high numbers on other games I've played in the past, and I daresay I've learned to recognize it the hard way....

Let's keep in mind SDC's ultimate goal here is to make it so unaware CMDR's can't get away from gank squads, to make Open even less inviting than it ever has been. And if SDC can't do that, they're evidently willing to try and throw as much dirt on Frontier as possible and rise up as much controversy as they can, presumably for the sake of attention.

Over on Reddit, SDC is often painted in some kind of martyristic light, as though they're on a crusade to rescue the glory of the "PvP" combat experience for the greater good of us all - like they're kindly asking other CMDRs in open to fair 1-on-1 consequence-free rounds of casual fisticuffs and Fdev is just some big bad fat cat with a big stick that tells them "No".

It's a comical farce.

 

[Chipoli]

What is combat logging?

Combat logging is the act of forcefully quitting (by either program task-kill or forced internet disconnect) the game while engaged in combat with another player. Frontier has clarified this act as an exploit, and a bannable offense.
Combat logging via the main menu/desktop via the 15 second timer is a different matter and discussion to be had entirely. Currently, this action is confirmed by Frontier as “legitimate”, and as such is not being addressed in this post.

Why is combat logging bad?

Aside from being classed as exploiting by Frontier themselves, combat logging is bad for the game (and gameplay experience) of both the exploiter and the victim. Not only does logging deprive both players of meaningful interaction in game that is vastly empty and void of a human element, but it stifles the rare emergent experiences that make the game more than a sterile grind.
Furthermore, the very nature of risk and reward is upended (a fundamental aspect of any game) because the combat logging party is never faces any risk of loss. Because the combat logger faces no negative consequences for any action, non-combat loggers must shoulder the full—and completely asymmetrical—burden of risk for any interaction: this disincentivizes meaningful PvP gameplay in a game billed as a space MMO.
Prime examples of gameplay styles that are hard-countered by combat logging include:

• PvP piracy
• Powerplay undermining defense/attacks
• Inter-faction warfare
• Player bounty hunting
• Hunting newbie-killers
• Blockades
• System protection

What does Frontier claim to be doing about it?

After much consternation and discussion involving the relative legality of combat logging with the devs, community, and community managers, Frontier ruled the action of combat logging to be “exploiting”and as such is punishable by shadowbanning offenders (a “shadowban” is a client restriction preventing them from accessing “open play,” which is the online mode with other players.) After this ruling, Frontier has encouraged the reporting and documenting (usually with a YouTube link and supporting chat screenshots) of CMDRs engaging in exploiting. This reporting is done via the support ticketing system, and is usually accompanied by confirmation from Frontier that they have received, and are reviewing, the case of exploiting: they have a stated response time of “usually within 48 hours” for reviewing tickets and supporting documents related to the case.

What appears to be happening?

Despite hundreds of reports of combat loggers, there is no apparent evidence that any action has ever been taken against an exploiter—in fact, there is mounting evidence that Frontier has been lying since the beginning with respect to investigating cases of exploiting. Frontier conveniently maintains that they will not share any details about punitive action taken against an account or whether any action was taken at all, providing them cover to their own policy of neglect. However, we have compiled meticulously documented evidence that Frontier is not only lying about their own policies, but encouraging players to go through the effort of reporting exploiters simply to provide a façade of being anti-exploiter in their own game.

Testing the hypothesis that combat logging is being swept under the rug.

Our test was conducted in the following way, done across two stages.
Stage one:

1. Taskkill Combat loggers were recorded in game, and most admitted to exploiting in chat afterwards in addition to the video evidence.
2. The video hosted on Youtube was set to “unlisted,” meaning that only the party (Frontier) with the direct URL link could access the video.
3. The viewcount with a timestamp was recorded prior to the submission of the evidence to Frontier.
4. We submitted support tickets accompanied with the unlisted video and chat evidence of combat loggers to Frontier, asking for an investigation.
5. We confirmed with support that they did in fact receive our request for an investigation.
6. We waited a minimum of 1 week before following up with support, allowing them a generous window in excess ofthe ~48 hours they require.https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...gation_into_frontiers_actions_on_combat/#img4
7. After confirmation from Frontier that the investigation was complete, we reviewed the view counts on the Youtube video evidence.

Stage two:

1. Three of our own alt accounts were used to taskkill combat log on our members, who recorded footage of said logs and reported them to Frontier support with tickets.
2. Once support had acknowledged that they were looking into the case, the owners of the alt accounts monitored their emails to see if Frontier had punished them in any way.

What we found—Confirmation that Frontier is lying.

After several iterations of reports to Frontier, confirmation that they engaged in an investigation of exploiting, and review of the view counts on the videos, we found that in all instances of reported exploiting, Frontier failed to view any of the video evidence in the reports a single time, even after several weeks and confirmation that they had in fact investigated the reports.
Stage two was aimed at testing Frontier's claims that they can determine taskkills using their internal logs, thereby making the video evidence redundant and/or unnecessary in some cases, and to track any punishments handed out. What we found was that the submitted videos received zero views, and none of our alt accounts have received any form of punishment to this day either - they simply closed the tickets.

Not only is it disconcerting that Frontier tacitly approves of exploiting (as they have defined it themselves) in their own game, but it is unethical that Frontier is willing to not only lie about their anti-exploit actions, but actively encourage players to take the time to record, upload, and file tickets reporting exploiters, knowing full well they will do nothing with the reports. Frontier’s unwillingness to police their own game against exploiters while blatantly lying to the playerbase about it is uncharacteristic of Frontier’s friendly public image, and is a detriment to the player community as a whole.

What does this mean?

Unfortunately, it is impossible to get Frontier to change policy or quit lying about their actions (with respect to exploiters and the community) without exposing their malfeasance for the players to see. We have tried many times through the appropriate channels to get Frontier to either take action or go public with their endorsement of exploiting, but they have lied and dodged every step of the way in order to placate the playerbase. Sometimes it is necessary for players to take it upon themselves to try and improve a game that is under threat; we were forced to do this with the heat meta, and will do it again as necessary. In this instance, it will be by publicising our findings to relevant media sites until Frontier decides to take action.

Hey bud, have you played any other MMOPGs before and took a closer look on the companies policies and actions?

 

[Zarunoi]

Hey bud, have you played any other MMOPGs before and took a closer look on the companies policies and actions?

Hmm now that you mention it, I don't recall it being a problem in any other game I played.
I wonder why people treat it as such a big deal in here.

 

[Ozram]

Hmm now that you mention it, I don't recall it being a problem in any other game I played.
I wonder why people treat it as such a big deal in here.

Yep. Usually it's just called a rage quit and left at that.

 

[Gunnet]

Hmm now that you mention it, I don't recall it being a problem in any other game I played.
I wonder why people treat it as such a big deal in here.

Same here. Aside from in actual competitive setups, a premature quit has always just been taken as a loss (albeit a less than sporting loss in some cases) and forgotten. And in the former case it's the quitter's own team who cares, not the other guys.

 

[Flimsey]

I am not lazy. I am just saying what mean Open Its like a saying what is 2+2.

Always you can question and say 'still not enough' or i am 'lazy' even if i will show a four fingers.

Lol
It depends on how you se it��
2+2=1
2+2=2
2+2=3 to .....

Explanation;

2 glass of water + 2 glass of water =1 big glass of water

2 engineered commanders + 2 commanders = 2 engineered commanders in that instance

2 male rats + 2 female rats = 4 to a lot of rats!

 

[lenna]

I suspect the only option truly open to them is to implement a guilty till proven innocent system i.e. if your connection drops, you ship is deemed destroyed, and it's up to you to prove that it was an accident. Some people believe this is a good solution, and frankly I don't have a big issue with trying it. I've also stated that if that is done, it should include some kind of "lives" system where you can get a certain number of get out of jail cards to use when it's truly a dropped connection, without having to call support. I see this as kind of like the Sky TV system or Itunes, where you can reset all your devices once per month or suchlike, but you can only do it once a month or x times a year. With this system, if you lost your ship due to a connection dropout that's not your fault, you can use one of your lives.

Given the frequency and randomness of the disconnects I have experienced I totally disagree with this principle. In addition, there is also the point that once you die you lose any crew and even Support can not resurrect them - I know from personal experience regarding a certain insta-kill bug in the game (that apparently has been fixed now).

Either way, Combat Logging is not the problem per se but rather certain behaviours - I am not talking about stopping PvP piracy/murder necessarily but rather making sure the punishments are true deterrents and not slaps on the wrist. Combat Logging is already a reportable offence and if certain PvPers are not happy with it then my opinion on the matter is tough - deal with it. An overly punitive network disconnect penalty would just be toxic to the game and probably end up doing the exact opposite to what some PvPers seem to want.