An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[wenkman]

yet we also have heard reports about players who logged and received a ban.

you have proven, that there are people that logged and were reported who weren't banned to solo.

you have not proven, that all people who log are not infracted.
you could not provide any percentage of people to not receive an infraction relative to people who do.

so i understand your anger, but that was not useful. (but rant away if you want to)

 

[znôrt]

The unacceptable only becomes acceptable when you choose to accept it. You might, personally I don't. The fact that everybody does it doesn't make it OK.

i accept it because it's the norm. you cannot function in our society without accepting that. all companies lie. constantly. why should frontier be an exception? why do you care so much about just one little lie? because it got exposed?

it goes like this: most likely frontier will make a statement, that's what is expected from them: to be politically correct. serious business! it can be a smart explanation, plain denial, or even an apology, but one thing is sure: it will be about 90% lie. plausible deniability to the rescue.

sorry, i did not design this version of the world. happy to change it, show me the way.

 

[Jukelo]

Kinda makes you wonder if they'd lie to your face about this, something so trivially verified, what else they're lying to your face about :/

I mean recently we've even had a gold farmer/power leveler openly boast about his activities on the forum. A quich search shows he has had a nice little business running for a while. Meanwhile Frontier has denied us direct player transactions on the ground that this way they're protecting the game from exactly these RMT types...

 

[Wasp0]

What is combat logging?

Combat logging is the act of forcefully quitting (by either program task-kill or forced internet disconnect) the game while engaged in combat with another player. Frontier has clarified this act as an exploit, and a bannable offense.
Combat logging via the main menu/desktop via the 15 second timer is a different matter and discussion to be had entirely. Currently, this action is confirmed by Frontier as “legitimate”, and as such is not being addressed in this post.

Why is combat logging bad?

Aside from being classed as exploiting by Frontier themselves, combat logging is bad for the game (and gameplay experience) of both the exploiter and the victim. Not only does logging deprive both players of meaningful interaction in game that is vastly empty and void of a human element, but it stifles the rare emergent experiences that make the game more than a sterile grind.
Furthermore, the very nature of risk and reward is upended (a fundamental aspect of any game) because the combat logging party is never faces any risk of loss. Because the combat logger faces no negative consequences for any action, non-combat loggers must shoulder the full—and completely asymmetrical—burden of risk for any interaction: this disincentivizes meaningful PvP gameplay in a game billed as a space MMO.
Prime examples of gameplay styles that are hard-countered by combat logging include:

• PvP piracy
• Powerplay undermining defense/attacks
• Inter-faction warfare
• Player bounty hunting
• Hunting newbie-killers
• Blockades
• System protection

What does Frontier claim to be doing about it?

After much consternation and discussion involving the relative legality of combat logging with the devs, community, and community managers, Frontier ruled the action of combat logging to be “exploiting”and as such is punishable by shadowbanning offenders (a “shadowban” is a client restriction preventing them from accessing “open play,” which is the online mode with other players.) After this ruling, Frontier has encouraged the reporting and documenting (usually with a YouTube link and supporting chat screenshots) of CMDRs engaging in exploiting. This reporting is done via the support ticketing system, and is usually accompanied by confirmation from Frontier that they have received, and are reviewing, the case of exploiting: they have a stated response time of “usually within 48 hours” for reviewing tickets and supporting documents related to the case.

What appears to be happening?

Despite hundreds of reports of combat loggers, there is no apparent evidence that any action has ever been taken against an exploiter—in fact, there is mounting evidence that Frontier has been lying since the beginning with respect to investigating cases of exploiting. Frontier conveniently maintains that they will not share any details about punitive action taken against an account or whether any action was taken at all, providing them cover to their own policy of neglect. However, we have compiled meticulously documented evidence that Frontier is not only lying about their own policies, but encouraging players to go through the effort of reporting exploiters simply to provide a façade of being anti-exploiter in their own game.

Testing the hypothesis that combat logging is being swept under the rug.

Our test was conducted in the following way, done across two stages.
Stage one:

1. Taskkill Combat loggers were recorded in game, and most admitted to exploiting in chat afterwards in addition to the video evidence.
2. The video hosted on Youtube was set to “unlisted,” meaning that only the party (Frontier) with the direct URL link could access the video.
3. The viewcount with a timestamp was recorded prior to the submission of the evidence to Frontier.
4. We submitted support tickets accompanied with the unlisted video and chat evidence of combat loggers to Frontier, asking for an investigation.
5. We confirmed with support that they did in fact receive our request for an investigation.
6. We waited a minimum of 1 week before following up with support, allowing them a generous window in excess ofthe ~48 hours they require.https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...gation_into_frontiers_actions_on_combat/#img4
7. After confirmation from Frontier that the investigation was complete, we reviewed the view counts on the Youtube video evidence.

Stage two:

1. Three of our own alt accounts were used to taskkill combat log on our members, who recorded footage of said logs and reported them to Frontier support with tickets.
2. Once support had acknowledged that they were looking into the case, the owners of the alt accounts monitored their emails to see if Frontier had punished them in any way.

What we found—Confirmation that Frontier is lying.

After several iterations of reports to Frontier, confirmation that they engaged in an investigation of exploiting, and review of the view counts on the videos, we found that in all instances of reported exploiting, Frontier failed to view any of the video evidence in the reports a single time, even after several weeks and confirmation that they had in fact investigated the reports.
Stage two was aimed at testing Frontier's claims that they can determine taskkills using their internal logs, thereby making the video evidence redundant and/or unnecessary in some cases, and to track any punishments handed out. What we found was that the submitted videos received zero views, and none of our alt accounts have received any form of punishment to this day either - they simply closed the tickets.

Not only is it disconcerting that Frontier tacitly approves of exploiting (as they have defined it themselves) in their own game, but it is unethical that Frontier is willing to not only lie about their anti-exploit actions, but actively encourage players to take the time to record, upload, and file tickets reporting exploiters, knowing full well they will do nothing with the reports. Frontier’s unwillingness to police their own game against exploiters while blatantly lying to the playerbase about it is uncharacteristic of Frontier’s friendly public image, and is a detriment to the player community as a whole.

What does this mean?

Unfortunately, it is impossible to get Frontier to change policy or quit lying about their actions (with respect to exploiters and the community) without exposing their malfeasance for the players to see. We have tried many times through the appropriate channels to get Frontier to either take action or go public with their endorsement of exploiting, but they have lied and dodged every step of the way in order to placate the playerbase. Sometimes it is necessary for players to take it upon themselves to try and improve a game that is under threat; we were forced to do this with the heat meta, and will do it again as necessary. In this instance, it will be by publicising our findings to relevant media sites until Frontier decides to take action.

Best read on this here sad forum for a Long Long time......I and everyone else awaits FD's response!

OP, i would suggest sleeping with one eye open for the time being............That Loach can be rather nasty piece of work i hear!

Great investigation!

 

[DefiledDragon]

I'm disappointed, but not surprised. Combat logging is bad, but as exploits go, it's a minor one that doesn't really affect anyone to any significant degree. I'd prefer that FD concentrate on aimbots, unattended credit farming, forced lag and min hull code. They seem to be doing that, so it's not all bad.

That's not really true though. Combat logging basically renders a whole segment of the game null and void. PvP. I realise that PvP isn't to everybody's taste and there are some very vocal and vociferous opponents to PvP within this community but that doesn't mean it's not a valid play style and one that should be protected to the best of FD's ability.

It's becoming apparent (I believe) that FD don't have the ability to mitigate this exploit, but rather than openly admit that and potentially lose the current and future PvP playerbase they seem to have chosen to lie about it and pretend to be doing something while doing precisely nothing.

Seems to me that Hello Games, erm I mean Frontier Developments have some work to do in restoring the faith of the segment of the playerbase who aren't completely blind to their failings. The whole community put its faith in FD over this issue and were told time and again that it was being looked at and that in the meantime offenders would be dealt with. That faith has just been destroyed.

 

[Wasp0]

Kinda makes you wonder if they'd lie to your face about this, something so trivially verified, what else they're lying to your face about :/

I would suggest Gimballed Weapons, but that is a different thread

 

[Obnoxious_Gamer]

Boogey?

Nah, it's the Bogey Man. He makes your golfing scores worse while you sleep.

 

[VR Murgle]

The horse is dead, leave it be.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

And this is why SDC is good for Elite. As said, s but good s.

Now with official evidence Frontier's experiencing pressure regarding this issue. While I highly support their deicisions with balance announcments (yesterday) I so do not support them in their P2P architecture and now, NMS style of communicating to players.

Sooner or later a bomb will blow up. And this bomb just went boom. I gonna watch FDev's reaction soonTM. An official statement would be awesome.

 

[Wizard_IRL]

Great journalism to all involved. Now we wait for Frontier to explain themselves, weigh the evidence, and come to a logical conclusion.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Hahahahahaha, really? No comment on the fact that FD might very well be lying to your face, but you'll pull the OP on his actions during his investigation.

The denial within this community is staggering. This level of tribalism and blind devotion is beyond moronic. People seem to have lost the ability to reason if the outcome of said reasoning conflicts with what they already believe. You should join a church, if you're not already a member, you would fit right in.

On the other hand, it could be perceived as blatant promotion of an unintended exploit. Something, which I believe is forbidden in the forum rules though it has been a while since I looked.
And then again, maybe they were logging, got a bit paranoid because they thought they may have been caught doing it and are now trying to cover their actions.
If they haven't been continually doing it, when FD may have investigated then there would have been no evidence so...just a waste of their time.
I can't see them being happy about that either.

 

[GimpstersGhost]

Like most other perceived issues with this game, combat logging is not an issue to be fixed but a symptom of deeper issues that result in player actions we deem to be disruptive to gameplay. Instead of asking yourself how combat logging is detrimental to the game perhaps you should instead ask yourself these questions.

• Why it is happening?
• What is the driving factor behind the behavior?

The issue is not really about it's negative effect on an aggressors gameplay. FDev all throughout the early development cycle stated that Elite was never intended to be a PvP centric game but a Cooperative centric game that allowed for PvP interaction. But like most similar games a lack of focusing of its PvP elements and allowing player to choose weather to participate or not, results in a minority group forcing their gameplay ideals on those with a differing desire. While the OP approaches this topic from the perspective of someone who appears to be above this activity, the vast majority of people calling this perceived issue to light are not.

If you want to reduce peoples use of this tactic then you need to address the reasons they are choosing this action, not try to prevent the action. All preventing the action will do is drive many of these people into solo and group play. The primary reason this activity is occurring is that the penalties for PvP loses in the currently available PvP gameplay within Open are too high when compared to the fun factor the risk of encountering a negative player to player interaction provides. Most MMO games have a very low penalty for PvP losses, you are back in the action in just a few minutes and any financial hits are easily recovered in short order through normal gameplay.

In games like Elite and EVE the penalty is high and only dedicated PvP players consider the loss to be acceptable. The result is that those that do not either stick to areas of the game where these encounters are less likely or spend their available gaming time elsewhere. If you want people to remain in open and discourage people from combat logging when combat is not going their way then you have to reduce the penalty for loss or the likelihood of significant loss to levels that these players find acceptable.

 

[JosiahD]

The unacceptable only becomes acceptable when you choose to accept it. You might, personally I don't. The fact that everybody does it doesn't make it OK.

Where's the evidence that 'everybody' does it though in this case? Let's ask ourselves this - in any given play session, say, 1 hour, how many players are in game at once? How many of those are in open? Of those, how many actively engage in combat with other players (wanted or unwanted combat)? Of those (and I'd argue we're already at a small minority of players by this point) who engage in such PvP combat, how many actively, deliberately combat log via killing the task? Do the math, even only speculatively, and it doesn't take much to work out that such combat logging would only be carried out by a small minority of players, and only impacts a small minority of players.
.
That's not to diminish the significance of the impact on the affected players or the impact of any inaction by Frontier, and even Frontier has acknowledged that it is cheating, but I doubt it's the significant problem, looking at the game as a whole, that posts like this make out. Yes, it's cheating, and yes warrants action by Frontier (if there is a demonstrable pattern of behaviour), but let's not blow the combat logging question out of proportion either.

 

[defekt]

Combat logging isn't high on the list of solvable problems that ED faces. The operative word there being: solvable.

For all anyone here knows the complaint may be sitting in a queue of other similarly prioritised cases and by that action the matter has, technically, been 'looked' at.

It's not a problem they can reliably address. As has already been discussed. A great many times. And no amount of bleating will change the way that the game's networking functions. In terms of combat logging; you're probably just going to have to get used to it for the time being.

The only thing FD might be held accountable for here is not directly admitting that it's not a problem that they can solve in the foreseeable future. (It's been hinted at many times, but never directly commented on AFAIAA.) Hardly a hanging offence, and a course of action absolutely within the parameters of running a commercial enterprise.

 

[CMDR SilverStar_]

So.........FD dont even care about cheaters hackers and combat loggingers, nor those player who use exploit.

 

[Thetele]

Like most other perceived issues with this game, combat logging is not an issue to be fixed but a symptom of deeper issues that result in player actions we deem to be disruptive to gameplay. Instead of asking yourself how combat logging is detrimental to the game perhaps you should instead ask yourself these questions.

• Why it is happening?
• What is the driving factor behind the behavior?

The issue is not really about it's negative effect on an aggressors gameplay. FDev all throughout the early development cycle stated that Elite was never intended to be a PvP centric game but a Cooperative centric game that allowed for PvP interaction. But like most similar games a lack of focusing of its PvP elements results in a minority group forcing their gameplay ideals on those with a differing desire. While the OP approaches this topic from the perspective of someone who appears to be above this activity, the vast majority of people calling this perceived issue to light are not.

If you want to reduce peoples use of this tactic then you need to address the reasons they are choosing this action, not try to prevent the action. All preventing the action will do is drive many of these people into solo and group play. The primary reason this activity is occurring is that the penalties for PvP loses in the currently available PvP gameplay within Open are too high when compared to the fun factor the risk of encountering a negative player to player interaction. Most MMO games have a very low penalty for PvP losses, you are back in the action in just a few minutes and any financial hits are easily recovered in short order through normal gameplay.

In games like Elite and EVE the penalty is high and only dedicated PvP players consider the loss acceptable and and a result those that do not either stick to areas of the game where these encounters are less likely. If you want people to remain in open and discourage people from combat logging when combat is not going their way then you have to reduce the penalty for loss or the likelihood of significant loss to levels that these players find acceptable.

Players will combat log as much even if we remove re buy cost (make it free) and any other form of penalty when they are losing or can't win. No one combat log to save their assets. They combat log because they can't face the fact that they lost or made mistake and simple key press make them never lose.

 

[Obnoxious_Gamer]

Players will combat log as much even if we remove re buy cost (make it free) and any other form of penalty when they are losing or can't win. No one combat log to save their assets. They combat log because they can't face the fact that they lost or made mistake and simple key press make them never lose.

I like how you're psychic. How long did it take you to build up enough power to see hundreds of individual thoughts at once?

Or, did you just spout insane assumptions and generalizations with no evidence?

 

[Asp Explorer]

For some it's part of the greater meta. Making PVP-Pro-Bros buy second accounts and spend time doing other things than playing the game.

 

[DefiledDragon]

On the other hand, it could be perceived as blatant promotion of an unintended exploit. Something, which I believe is forbidden in the forum rules though it has been a while since I looked.
And then again, maybe they were logging, got a bit paranoid because they thought they may have been caught doing it and are now trying to cover their actions.
If they haven't been continually doing it, when FD may have investigated then there would have been no evidence so...just a waste of their time.
I can't see them being happy about that either.

Yeah, of course somebody would go to all that trouble, creating video's, raising support tickets, formatting a huge post like that just to promote an already very well known exploit that is documented in several hundred other threads in this forum. Yep, makes perfect sense when you think about it after inserting a food processor into your ear and running it on full speed for ten minutes.

 

[StiTch]

Whoever you may be sir OP, thankyou for this investigation.

Glad to know that people CLing on pirating but are insistent "butts I was tolded that this game is play mah way!" are in a comically ironic twist the accepted criminals here.