An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[xdeath]

Would you have responded differently to this Investigation (post) if Adles Armada had done it, the large Player Group that polices the starter/newbie sector and have equal (if not more) issues with Combat Loggers (newbie-killers)? They arguably submit more CL-related tickets than SDC et al.

Absolutely not. I didn't even know it was a post made by SDC until long after I had my initial reaction.

In fact, I was more inclined to believe it was any other group because of these two bulletins in the list of what combat logging effects:

Player bounty hunting
Hunting newbie-killers

It's hard to believe SDCs intentions were so noble.
I was actually pretty sure it was either independent pilots or the remnants of Code.

 

[Stigbob]

Yes I understand. When I first floated this idea I did say that it was easy for me to propose as I have a pretty stable connection.

A few people earlier in this thread have given the answer that if you don't have a reliable connection, you shouldn't be playing in open. That's not very helpful to you, but I suppose that if such a system was introduced, people like yourself would be disadvantaged.

That said, just to be clear, you would only lose your ship if you disconnected whilst you were in a combat situation with at least one other player in the instance - if you D/C while in solo, doing a mission, or whatever, you wouldn't lose anything.

This raises a couple of points
- The information about broadband reliability by region, in the UK at least, is mostly publicly available. Therefore if you live in a dodgy area, you could ask support to increase your number of lives.

- The other thing this raises is that PVP players tend to assume / blame the person who logged out. They may not realize how often it's actually caused by various technical issues. Everyone says that it's highly unlikely you would d/c in combat lots of times, but I suppose that when you are in a busy instance with pitched battles going on, that is exactly when the game is under most strain, so it's more likely you will have an issue. I have actually had an issue the last few days where my throttle keeps stopping to respond, until I log out and log in again.

Support already know my broadband issues it's mentioned in bug reports I've submitted, and they'll also be able to see how many days (not joking) it took to download the last update and at what speed it happened I'd imagine.

I've had another 2 disconnects since my last post one in supercruise and one in combat, out of the 6 I've had today that would be 4 combat related ones in an hour and a half. So combat does definitely seem to worsen the issue.

Today's been bad with about 15 minutes between disconnects, that's too frequent for me to consider bug reporting I'd be spending more time on them than on the game.

So assuming they implemented your punitive measures today I'd be looking at 4 re-buys as I'm assumed to be guilty and I'm not submitting bug-reports, at 13.5 million each that's a loss of 54 million in an hour and a half, if they give me the benefit of the doubt on the non-combat ones.

I'd be space bankrupt within a week at that rate, having played since gamma without grinding or exploiting (or combat logging).

Why should I be punished so harshly for something other people do ?.

 

[Perseus]

snip So assuming they implemented your punitive measures today I'd be looking at 4 re-buys as I'm assumed to be guilty and I'm not submitting bug-reports, at 13.5 million each that's a loss of 54 million in an hour and a half, if they give me the benefit of the doubt on the non-combat ones.

I'd be space bankrupt within a week at that rate, having played since gamma without grinding or exploiting (or combat logging).

Why should I be punished so harshly for something other people do ?.

Sorry if I sound harsh or unsympathetic but the answer is because your internet connect is so dire.
The bad internet connection of individual players shouldn't be a community/game problem that translates into preventing abusive gameplay actions on the assumption of a possible (and usually rare) ' disconnect innocence'.

 

[dreampage]

A possible solution would be to automatically consider the combat logger's ship destroyed. How to do that? If you engage in a fight (that means, you attack someone or you're under fire from someone, technically you have a "red" player in your vicinity) and you disconnect during that state you lose your ship and next time you log in you have to rebuy. This way anyone (attackers and victims included) would be bound to the game if they engage in a fight, or else they'd lose their ship. There are cases when the internet connection is to blame but I think it would be quite rare that the connection is lost just at the wrong moment.

Now, the above method would not apply to Conflict Zones but everywhere else.

 

[Mohrgan]

That some players loose the opportunity to see another's ship implode, is not a reasonable justification for unwarranted punishment to anyone.

There should be a trade off, what ever happens to a player that CL's, the very same punishment should await anyone who destroys a clean Commander.

 

[Stigbob]

Sorry if I sound harsh or unsympathetic but the answer is because your internet connect is so dire.
The bad internet connection of individual players shouldn't be a community/game problem that translates into preventing abusive gameplay actions on the assumption of a possible (and usually rare) ' disconnect innocence'.

Punishing players for their connection speed in a product with a planned offline mode at the point of sale (to me). That's a non-starter.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

A possible solution would be to automatically consider the combat logger's ship destroyed. How to do that? If you engage in a fight (that means, you attack someone or you're under fire from someone, technically you have a "red" player in your vicinity) and you disconnect during that state you lose your ship and next time you log in you have to rebuy. This way anyone (attackers and victims included) would be bound to the game if they engage in a fight, or else they'd lose their ship. There are cases when the internet connection is to blame but I think it would be quite rare that the connection is lost just at the wrong moment.

Now, the above method would not apply to Conflict Zones but everywhere else.

Excuse my ignorance but woukd the server even know for sure who disconnected from who? I was under the impression the entre thing was P2P and it was the rexult of the encounter which got uploaded to servers

 

[Toumal]

Sorry if I sound harsh or unsympathetic but the answer is because your internet connect is so dire.
The bad internet connection of individual players shouldn't be a community/game problem that translates into preventing abusive gameplay actions on the assumption of a possible (and usually rare) ' disconnect innocence'.

It happens more often than you'd think. Plus some people suggested bans for disconnects, which is a huge can of worms by and in itself.

 

[JerryLove]

I actually have no beef with those angry at the combat loggers... i can totally see their point.... but CL-ing is no better or no worse than suicidewindering to escape from bounty hunters as well as the various other exploits people do in the game . So long as you hold all players to the same standard and not just cherry picking one of many exploits.

Actually: This would be a simple fix.

Since blowing up your ship doesn't kill you: have it not clear your fines/bounties.

If it sounds draconian: it's certainly less so than banning players.

 

[Javert]

Support already know my broadband issues it's mentioned in bug reports I've submitted, and they'll also be able to see how many days (not joking) it took to download the last update and at what speed it happened I'd imagine.

I've had another 2 disconnects since my last post one in supercruise and one in combat, out of the 6 I've had today that would be 4 combat related ones in an hour and a half. So combat does definitely seem to worsen the issue.

Today's been bad with about 15 minutes between disconnects, that's too frequent for me to consider bug reporting I'd be spending more time on them than on the game.

So assuming they implemented your punitive measures today I'd be looking at 4 re-buys as I'm assumed to be guilty and I'm not submitting bug-reports, at 13.5 million each that's a loss of 54 million in an hour and a half, if they give me the benefit of the doubt on the non-combat ones.

I'd be space bankrupt within a week at that rate, having played since gamma without grinding or exploiting (or combat logging).

Why should I be punished so harshly for something other people do ?.

Just to be clear, are you playing in open?

If you're playing in solo or there were not other players present, you wouldn't be subject to this idea. It's only if you're in a PVP fight you would get the death.

If you're a PVP player and you fight other players you are right it's a major issue, but that said, it must be pretty frustrating for both you and the player you are fighting if your connection drops out in most combat sessions. I sympathize with the situation, but that's not FD's fault.

Also, the fact that the offline mode was cancelled is true, but if you were in offline mode, by definition you wouldn't be in an instance with other players, so my penalty would not apply.

 

[JerryLove]

Wouldn't that easily be exploitable? Going into sidewinder and have your buddies repeatedly blow you up, thereby earning the bounty again and again?

How do they stop that now?

I mean: how do they stop that from happening once now? Go into a system: get a huge bounty, have your friend collect it.

Another option would be: if you are blown up: the bounty is pulled from your account. If you cannot afford it: you get a "sell ships" interface until you can. If you still cannot: your assets are erased, your bounties/fines are wiped, and you get a sidewinder. I mean: they have caught you now; and your money is just numbers in an account.

Don't carry a bounty you can't afford to pay.

 

[StuartGT]

Wouldn't that easily be exploitable? Going into sidewinder and have your buddies repeatedly blow you up, thereby earning the bounty again and again?

No. The bounty would have been earned by your "killer" the first time you're destroyed, but you still have to pay the fine/bounty yourself.

 

[JerryLove]

No. The bounty would have been earned by your "killer" the first time you're destroyed, but you still have to pay the fine/bounty yourself.

Also an excellent idea. Would discourage players from killing you later: but the cops would be more than happy to make your life rough indefinitely.

 

[StuartGT]

That is why FD capped the bounty you can get on your head. Whereas your suggestion (implemented naively) would lead to near infinite money (or atleast as much as you can get in the time the bounty lasts until it turns into a fine)...

Edit: Now having to pay your bounty yourself sounds like a good idea, you have to actively dodge bounty hunters, makes for interesting gameplay...

Except when Wanted CMDRs Combat Log against the Bounty Hunters... aaaaand we come full circle

 

[StuartGT]

From the ED Reddit: "50 Valid Reasons For Unprovoked Attacks"

Many regard an unprovoked attack initiated by another commander as something done "for no reason" or "just to ruin someone's day." This fallacious thinking reveals a basic ignorance of the many thoughtful rationales that could underly such an attack.

As a public service to new pilots across the galaxy, allow me to enumerate 50 reasons why a commander of good conscience might choose to attack another pilot. In this list "The commander..." refers to the commander being targeted for attack.

1. The commander was helping advance an evil superpower (such as: any of them--they're all evil)
2. The commander was serving an immoral galactic power (such as the secretly licentious Aisling Duval).
3. The commander was working for a faction known to duplicitiously slaughter the weak (e.g., Adle's Armada).
4. The commander was colluding with eco-terrorists (aka: the Fuel Rats).
5. The commander was conducting business with an objectionable form of government based on mob rule (i.e., a democracy).
6. The commander was perturbing virgin worlds that should protected from human defilement (i.e., exploring).
7. The commander was transporting slaves via a starship (slaves should always be made to walk).
8. The commander was in possession of onionhead but lacked the common decency to offer any to others.
9. The commander was contributing to the galactic epidemic of obesity by transporting excessive quantities of food.
10. The commander was carrying medicine in his cargo bay without a doctor's prescription.
11. The commander was hauling biowaste, and as a soldier, it's your duty to blow up.
12. The commander was caught violently assaulting (without provocation) an innocent asteroid.
13. The commander was still scooping asteroid fragments that he had just mined, even though you just called dibs on them.
14. The commander was kill-stealing your bounties.
15. The commander was not allowing you to kill-steal his bounties.
16. The commander was guilty of ramming you (by not dodging your ram attempt fast enough).
17. The commander was loitering over a landing pad, but the station failed destroy him in time, so you seek to finish what the station started.
18. The commander was hogging a landing pad at an outpost, even though that outpost was experiencing outbreak and people there were in desperate need of medicine.
19. The commander was flying in an anarchy system and you were just trying to be a good anarchist.
20. The commander was in a shieldless trade ship and should be punished for valuing greed-for-money over regard for human saftey.
21. The commander was not wanted, but you feel that everyone should be wanted; otherwise life is not worth living, so you ended his life.
22. The commander was spitefully defiant when you politely asked him to bow down and worship you,
23. The commander was suspected of being a decoy sidewinder scout ship for the SDC.
24. The commander was flying amongst other commanders, who, if they decided to collude against you, could decimate you--so you decided to strike pre-emptively, so that their collusion can never occur.
25. The commander was destroying helpless skimmers but you happen to be a robot rights activist.
26. The commander was being unduly arrogant by bragging about the 400 million in exploration data he was about to deliver to the station.
27. The commander was not performing exceptionally enough as a wing mate.
28. The commander was contributing more to the community goal than you, reducing your profits, and therefore needed to be eliminated.
29. The commander was doing nothing wrong, but you need to commit crimes in order to trigger a system lockdown state.
30. The commander was flying a T-9 without rebuy and you wanted to stimulate the local economy by increasing new ship purchases.
31. The commander was unresponsive when you hailed his ship, and now you're left no choice but to assume that he's part of a dark conspiracy to assasinate you, and thus you must strike first if you want to survive.
32. The commander was pledged to Zemina Torvald, but she is your true love, and you will not tolerate any competition for her affections.
33. The commander was flying a corvette, but was ranked as novice, and you're just trying to put him back in the ship he actually belongs in.
34. The commander was headed to receive engineering upgrades that could allow him to bully other commanders, so you decide to make the world a better place by preventing the bullying from ever happening.
35. The commander was taking his passengers to Hel, and you wanted to help by sending them there a little sooner.
36. The commander was a known reverse-griefer, infamous for high-waking away from battle, and all griefers must be punished, even reverse-griefers.
37. The commander was a known trade-griefer, notorious for preventing others from purchasing a commodity by hoarding all the supply for himself in his Type-9.
38. The commander was a known exploration-griefer, who unfairly discovered planets first so as to ruin the enjoyment of others seeking to be first discoverer.
39. The commander was an ideal subject for experimentation with your new loadout; when you attacked him, you only did it for science.
40. The commander was flying a low-tier ship, and you wanted to inspire him, Tony Robbins style, to strive to obtain something better, by giving him direct experience with something better.
41. The commander was not practicing good situational awareness, and as a caring but firm mentor, you wanted to teach him the consequences of not being vigilant.
42. The commander was insulting the reputation of your mother.
43. The commander was wrongfully shooting at the peace-loving barnacles.
44. The commander was negligently failing to shoot at the hideous barnacles.
45. The commander was just sitting still at zero throttle, most likely contemplating suicide, but lacking the courage to do it himself, and probably hoping that some compassionate individual would come along and do it for him.
46. The commander was seen speeding near a station, thereby putting everyone's life at risk; by eliminating this one wreckless commander, you will likely save many lives in the future.
47. The commander was agreeable to your offer to receive a free UA from you, so you obliged by providing the promised unprovoked attack.
48. The commander was asking you to help him destroy a ganker, but you personally disagree not only with first-degree ganking--but also with ganking gankers--so to express this disagreement you ganked the ganker-ganker, because you're actually ok with third-degree ganking.
49. The commander was entirely compliant with your piracy demand for cargo, but you still didn't want to leave any witnesses.
50. The commander was violating a law imposed by a system authority such Zarek Null, sovereign Overlord of Eravate.

This list is by no means comprehensive, but helps to demonstrate that there are numerous good reasons for engaging in unprovoked attacks.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

He missed the most common one:

51. The attacking CMDR is a pillock.

 

[Waldi]

From the ED Reddit: "50 Valid Reasons For Unprovoked Attacks"

OK a mostly harmless eagle (no horizons) gets interdicted by a RNGenered Elite Fer-de-lance and destroyed in seconds whats your opinion on why they did that ?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

OK a mostly harmless eagle (no horizons) gets interdicted by a RNGenered Elite Fer-de-lance and destroyed in seconds whats your opinion on why they did that ?

I think ziggy covered that

 

[Asp Explorer]

OK a mostly harmless eagle (no horizons) gets interdicted by a RNGenered Elite Fer-de-lance and destroyed in seconds whats your opinion on why they did that ?

I'd take it as a reason to bootcamp your mac

 

[StuartGT]

OK a mostly harmless eagle (no horizons) gets interdicted by a RNGenered Elite Fer-de-lance and destroyed in seconds whats your opinion on why they did that ?

52. The commander was suspected of being a Thargoid sleeper agent transporting stolen sensitive data