An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[Stigbob]

Just to be clear, are you playing in open?

If you're playing in solo or there were not other players present, you wouldn't be subject to this idea. It's only if you're in a PVP fight you would get the death.

If you're a PVP player and you fight other players you are right it's a major issue, but that said, it must be pretty frustrating for both you and the player you are fighting if your connection drops out in most combat sessions. I sympathize with the situation, but that's not FD's fault.

Also, the fact that the offline mode was cancelled is true, but if you were in offline mode, by definition you wouldn't be in an instance with other players, so my penalty would not apply.

I like PVP .

Open by default like all manly brave pretend internet space pilots.

Solo/group if I get rubberbanding or I'm winging up with others. Or if I'm somewhere busy and I can't be bothered dodging space-trash.

The point I was making about offline mode isn't that is shouldn't have been dropped (I never gave a stuff and still don't, lots of games are either online only or require frequent updates anyway) the point is penalize me in any way no matter how minor for a connection error and I'll expect a full refund.

 

[Mephane]

From the ED Reddit: "50 Valid Reasons For Unprovoked Attacks"

Most of that is just , and I assume the author knows that. Either that post is pure sarcasm or Ziggy's reason 51 applies instead...

 

[StuartGT]

Most of that is just , and I assume the author knows that. Either that post is pure sarcasm or Ziggy's reason 51 applies instead...

One would assume it's tongue-in-cheek...

 

[Roybe]

From the ED Reddit: "50 Valid Reasons For Unprovoked Attacks"

Here's a few you missed:

Spoiler

[video=youtube;S06nIz4scvI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI[/video]

 

[TargetLost]

From the ED Reddit: "50 Valid Reasons For Unprovoked Attacks"

I read 3 then I combat logged from reddit.
( all 50 had killed me )

 

[LuciusEsox]

I just lost nearly six mill on a Beluga to an NPC in what I thought was a benign system to me in just over the time it took to deploy my fighter. I am not sure if combat logging includes logging out to NPC's but if it does I support it because I most certainly would have done it if I had been quick enough.

Real bad feeling to know I am that bad a pilot,, and that is without sarcasm.

Thing is I cant afford to git beta as will run out of cash before I learn.

Am I just moaning or is this just bad balancing ?

Don't matter really as the result is the same.

I will shut the door dont worry

 

[Ydiss]

I need to install project99 again. Haven't played EverQuest in so long. Do something against a faction/rep, your characters rep would plummet against them. XP loss per death as well, along with corpse looting.

I preferred The Hidden Forest on EQEmu

 

[Javert]

I like PVP .

Open by default like all manly brave pretend internet space pilots.

Solo/group if I get rubberbanding or I'm winging up with others. Or if I'm somewhere busy and I can't be bothered dodging space-trash.

The point I was making about offline mode isn't that is shouldn't have been dropped (I never gave a stuff and still don't, lots of games are either online only or require frequent updates anyway) the point is penalize me in any way no matter how minor for a connection error and I'll expect a full refund.

OK well I see your point. I guess in way though, you are already being penalized in that if you are winning the fight and you have a connection errors, you have now lost whereas if you had a much better broadband you would not have had the issue.

Likewise, there will be some situations where you can't get into the instance because of your connection instability, which again penalizes you.

I'm playing devil's advocate somewhat here because I see your point entirely, but you chose to prioritize other things over living in a place with fibre broadband, and presumably at that time, you didn't even know whether your connection would be usable for PVP in ED at your new location?

Now, if there are only a very small number of people in your situation who like PVP but have an unreliable connection, this could be handled by an exception basis by giving you a much bigger number of "lives". If there are large numbers in your situation, that would not be a solution.

Whether you'd be legally entitled to a refund in that situation would be debatable since a) you have already played the game for a very long time and b) there may not be a legal duty on FD to provide everyone, no matter how poor their connection, with the full openplay experience.

And therein lies the prolem for FD I guess - if your position is a valid one that they buy into this being unacceptable for large group of players, you have a catch 22 there.

I also do wonder if this is one of those situations where you cannot change something once it's been put in place. If the rule since day 0 had been that if you disconnect whilst in combat, you lose your ship, we would probably have just accepted it from the beginning. Putting it in place now would be controversial as your position clearly illustrates.

 

[Ozram]

I just lost nearly six mill on a Beluga to an NPC in what I thought was a benign system to me in just over the time it took to deploy my fighter. I am not sure if combat logging includes logging out to NPC's but if it does I support it because I most certainly would have done it if I had been quick enough.

Real bad feeling to know I am that bad a pilot,, and that is without sarcasm.

Thing is I cant afford to git beta as will run out of cash before I learn.

Am I just moaning or is this just bad balancing ?

Don't matter really as the result is the same.

I will shut the door dont worry

Different ships require different strategies for survival. Sorry I'm going a bit off topic (already said my piece on CL'ing in the current environment). Surviving an NPC interdiction should not require you to "get Gud". Rather, it's important to get informed. Main survival tactics include:
1) Proper loadout (shields, hull, various defensive countermeasures)
2) Good pip management. This is fairly basic and again no real need to "get Gud".
3) Know when to high or low wake (know which ships can and can't mass lock you).
4) SLFs (do not pilot it yourself in an emergency). Bind the controls to your hotas or keyboard so you don't lose precious time when launching it. They are disposable so good to distract an interdictor while you wake out.
5) don't waste needless time when you are in danger. The time for defensive measures and hardpoints out is while the fsd is in cooldown. When the blue timer finishes it's time to get outa dodge.
6) Learn interdiction trigger mechanics. The TLDR is there are things will make them more likely to happen.
That's a fairly simple list that will see you out of danger most of the time. The advantage of learning them is the rewarding feeling you get from successfully navigating your way through the danger and surviving it. This is something you deny yourself when you log.
Cheers and good luck.

 

[Javert]

I just lost nearly six mill on a Beluga to an NPC in what I thought was a benign system to me in just over the time it took to deploy my fighter. I am not sure if combat logging includes logging out to NPC's but if it does I support it because I most certainly would have done it if I had been quick enough.

Real bad feeling to know I am that bad a pilot,, and that is without sarcasm.

Thing is I cant afford to git beta as will run out of cash before I learn.

Am I just moaning or is this just bad balancing ?

Don't matter really as the result is the same.

I will shut the door dont worry

Strangely, I also just lost 6m on a Beluga when I went to take a closer look at a "Military installation", not realizing that I ould be targetted by a myriad of naval vessels with no warning. I didn't blame the game though - just made a note not to do that again

That said, I haven't come across and NPC yet that could kill my Beluga quicker than I could deploy my fighter, except that time described above where I upset a navel protection force.

All that said, technically, if you had combat logged, nobody would have ever known about it because we already know that FD do not investigate combat logging unless it's reported by another player, so if you were on your own with an NPC, nobody is going to do anything - it's currently between you and your conscience, and I suspect that is how it will remain.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I think part of the problem (bugs aside) is some people are getting the big ships so so fast now. During cutting teeth in elite we all blow up for stupid reasons and we learn what we can and cant get away with. This happened to me in my sidewinder, eagle and adder. I am not saying i never blow up now but at least when i do i know enough about the game to learn from it and not be at a loss.

I read a post earlier today about a player new to the game losing his python......... how is a new player in a python its a bit like giving a novice motorboat sailor the keys to a frigate


So a new player with all their assets ploughed into a ship they cant fly. . And just noticed i am way ot now sorry....... but to pull back, i guess if a player has exploited the game to get a big ship its not a huge stretch to think they will happily menu log or maybe even dirty log to try to get away from attack

 

[Ozram]

I think part of the problem (bugs aside) is some people are getting the big ships so so fast now. During cutting teeth in elite we all blow up for stupid reasons and we learn what we can and cant get away with. This happened to me in my sidewinder, eagle and adder. I am not saying i never blow up now but at least when i do i know enough about the game to learn from it and not be at a loss.

I read a post earlier today about a player new to the game losing his python......... how is a new player in a python its a bit like giving a novice motorboat sailor the keys to a frigate. And just noticed i am way ot now sorry.......

Took me over a year to get my first Python.

 

[Javert]

So how about this for another idea as a compromise to the the "disconnect whilst in combat with another player means you lose your ship".

If you have a disconnection from the game and you are in combat, it stands to reason that when you log back in, you should still be in combat. The game already knows you were in combat because it knows to activate the logout timer.

Therefore, if you disconnected whilst in combat, for any reason, when you log back in you should be facing enemy ships. Ideally, either the server or client should try to remember the nature of the opposition you were facing when you dropped out, and when you come back in, you should facet the same forces again. Granted, if one of them was a player, it would be replaced by an (Elite?) NPC.

If this can't be done, you should at least face a random force against you when you log back in.

This way, at least those who drop out whilst in combat wouldn't get away scot free and be in an empty instance when they log back in.

Not only would this be a disincentive to PVP combat logging, it would also do the same for Solo combat logging as well.

 

[Roybe]

Blizzard punishes it's customers quite harshly when caught exploiting or cheating in any way. Usually with a no questions asked loss of online privilege. Come to think of it Fdev is the only game company I have ever seen that completely ignores it's own rules and allows players to do whatever they please.

If Frontier took a hard stance on combat logging by banishing repeat offenders to a shadow server or solo play that would act as a deterrent. They don't do that so we get what we have now, a wild west.

Actually, a 'bad actor' server could become a positive reward...with people cheating more in the actual game to get the 'E ticket ride' of the 'bad actor' server....turns the game into:

Spoiler

[video=youtube;2rtDIo0QnOA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rtDIo0QnOA[/video]

 

[Ozram]

So how about this for another idea as a compromise to the the "disconnect whilst in combat with another player means you lose your ship".

If you have a disconnection from the game and you are in combat, it stands to reason that when you log back in, you should still be in combat. The game already knows you were in combat because it knows to activate the logout timer.

Therefore, if you disconnected whilst in combat, for any reason, when you log back in you should be facing enemy ships. Ideally, either the server or client should try to remember the nature of the opposition you were facing when you dropped out, and when you come back in, you should facet the same forces again. Granted, if one of them was a player, it would be replaced by an (Elite?) NPC.

If this can't be done, you should at least face a random force against you when you log back in.

This way, at least those who drop out whilst in combat wouldn't get away scot free and be in an empty instance when they log back in.

Nice. I'd be really happy with this, especially as my game has CTD'd during combat (as well as when not in combat but that's irrelevant here) and I hate that feeling when I boot it up again and it's all over, move along pilot. I'd call that a QOL improvement!

 

[lenna]

So how about this for another idea as a compromise to the the "disconnect whilst in combat with another player means you lose your ship".

If you have a disconnection from the game and you are in combat, it stands to reason that when you log back in, you should still be in combat. The game already knows you were in combat because it knows to activate the logout timer.

Therefore, if you disconnected whilst in combat, for any reason, when you log back in you should be facing enemy ships. Ideally, either the server or client should try to remember the nature of the opposition you were facing when you dropped out, and when you come back in, you should facet the same forces again. Granted, if one of them was a player, it would be replaced by an (Elite?) NPC.

If this can't be done, you should at least face a random force against you when you log back in.

This way, at least those who drop out whilst in combat wouldn't get away scot free and be in an empty instance when they log back in.

Not only would this be a disincentive to PVP combat logging, it would also do the same for Solo combat logging as well.

Not an Elite NPC but perhaps an NPC of comparable level to the PC target.

Despite what some like to claim PvP does not increase game risk, just the risk of getting trolled.

 

[Stigbob]

OK well I see your point. I guess in way though, you are already being penalized in that if you are winning the fight and you have a connection errors, you have now lost whereas if you had a much better broadband you would not have had the issue.

Likewise, there will be some situations where you can't get into the instance because of your connection instability, which again penalizes you.

I'm playing devil's advocate somewhat here because I see your point entirely, but you chose to prioritize other things over living in a place with fibre broadband, and presumably at that time, you didn't even know whether your connection would be usable for PVP in ED at your new location?

Not that it's relevant but where I live has broadband on paper (especially the bills) however the service is so shoddy the regulator is installing monitoring devices with a view to action against the provider. The regulator tested my connection but it's actually too unreliable for the monitor to work. A full fiber optic upgrade was supposed to have been finished over a year ago, but aside from a sad little overgrown hole in the ground down by the post box hasn't actually started yet.

Now, if there are only a very small number of people in your situation who like PVP but have an unreliable connection, this could be handled by an exception basis by giving you a much bigger number of "lives". If there are large numbers in your situation, that would not be a solution.

This thread and the "investigation" were by SDC, if you make allowances for people in my position SDC and other exploiters will try to take advantage of it whilst claiming they are just bringing bugs to FD's attention.

Whether you'd be legally entitled to a refund in that situation would be debatable since a) you have already played the game for a very long time and b) there may not be a legal duty on FD to provide everyone, no matter how poor their connection, with the full openplay experience.

And therein lies the prolem for FD I guess - if your position is a valid one that they buy into this being unacceptable for large group of players, you have a catch 22 there.

Devils advocate:

"I've been labelled a cheat and penalized for a substandard internet connection by a company who sold a game with a now cancelled offline mode and have been aware of my connection issues for over a year. People who demanded them were given refunds over the cancellation of offline at the time, how is this drastic bit of goalpost shifting any different."

Who knows how it would pan out, it would be interesting.

I also do wonder if this is one of those situations where you cannot change something once it's been put in place. If the rule since day 0 had been that if you disconnect whilst in combat, you lose your ship, we would probably have just accepted it from the beginning. Putting it in place now would be controversial as your position clearly illustrates.

No less controversial than combat logging itself which has been around since day 1, along with cheating, griefing and exploiting.

 

[LuciusEsox]

Different ships require different strategies for survival. Sorry I'm going a bit off topic (already said my piece on CL'ing in the current environment). Surviving an NPC interdiction should not require you to "get Gud". Rather, it's important to get informed. Main survival tactics include:
1) Proper loadout (shields, hull, various defensive countermeasures)
2) Good pip management. This is fairly basic and again no real need to "get Gud".
3) Know when to high or low wake (know which ships can and can't mass lock you).
4) SLFs (do not pilot it yourself in an emergency). Bind the controls to your hotas or keyboard so you don't lose precious time when launching it. They are disposable so good to distract an interdictor while you wake out.
5) don't waste needless time when you are in danger. The time for defensive measures and hardpoints out is while the fsd is in cooldown. When the blue timer finishes it's time to get outa dodge.
6) Learn interdiction trigger mechanics. The TLDR is there are things will make them more likely to happen.
That's a fairly simple list that will see you out of danger most of the time. The advantage of learning them is the rewarding feeling you get from successfully navigating your way through the danger and surviving it. This is something you deny yourself when you log.
Cheers and good luck.

Thank you for your reply

I am a pilot in a big old passenger ship just chirping along trying to get to grips with getting the thing in and out of the letterbox tbh.

I have been out of the bubble for so much of my playing time since beta I have only heard of the brutal npc's via these boards (correct me if I am wrong they are now "better/less harsh" than they were ?) so that is some indication how long I have been away.

I don't really have too much of an argument here because I probably could have done things quicker, and in a better order, but not by much.

My point is that we just had a dirty great poll about trying to keep a level of realism vis a vis ship transfer and I just cant imagine in a real world that what happened to me tonight would be probable.

Yeah I know, get gud..

If this is a very likely outcome for me flying in a friendly system with no cargo whatsoever, great..

Feeling guilty about combat logging, really...

Wish I had hit the kill button quicker.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

Dirty cheating combat logging ...ban the llot of them.

 

[ArchEmperor]

The solution has already been proposed: Just play the destruction animation if someone use combat logging and everyone is happy.