Anti-Botting Agreement

[Jane Turner]

I am horribly out of date, but it's worth highlighting that Likedeelers of Michel and their associated Colonia faction are on board along with around 15 other factions I have yet to include

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

I am horribly out of date, but it's worth highlighting that Likedeelers of Michel and their associated Colonia faction are on board along with around 15 other factions I have yet to include

Is this like Elite's version of Pokemon Go?

 

[varonica]

don't bot so I don't think I need to sign an agreement to not bot!

 

[Riverside]

don't bot so I don't think I need to sign an agreement to not bot!

Indeed. But there is no harm in signing up either

I think the important part is a willingness to help confirm that a particular action wasn't bots.

 

[varonica]

Indeed. But there is no harm in signing up either

I think the important part is a willingness to help confirm that a particular action wasn't bots.

I don't really think there's any way for players to tell, specially with all the automation going around these days.

 

[Riverside]

I don't really think there's any way for players to tell, specially with all the automation going around these days.

I don't either, not with any certainty (FDev can though) but as someone who has had work attributed to botting I'm happy to confirm that no, they just had their rear end handed to them on a plate by a player that doesn't have an inara account

 

[Mysteron]

I don't really think there's any way for players to tell, specially with all the automation going around these days.

Indeed, some factions also use advanced A.I. BGS bots that collect system information from third party sites and then simply output instructions automatically on what BGS actions to take, in which systems and how much work to do.Their members then just follow whatever the bot churns out allowing them to crush virtually any other faction they care to. This is probably not classed as cheating but it is arguably a more effective advantage than in game bots.

 

[Bigmaec]

Indeed, some factions also use advanced A.I. BGS bots that collect system information from third party sites and then simply output instructions automatically on what BGS actions to take, in which systems and how much work to do.Their members then just follow whatever the bot churns out allowing them to crush virtually any other faction they care to. This is probably not classed as cheating but it is arguably a more effective advantage than in game bots.

I wonder if those bots are included in the agreement

 

[Riverside]

I wonder if those bots are included in the agreement

It's entirely outside the game & unpoliceable by FDev, but sure, the AB-A could add it to the agreement

But just as with an open-only policy between player groups (or a no premium ammo policy to a lesser extent) there's no way for the community to police it, alt accounts are common & easily obtained so friend lists alone won't work and as far as FDev are concerned it's all good & stuff like this agreement is already part of FDev's ToS anyway but it's a gesture, and I suppose if a botter is discovered the effects of their 5C actions can be taken into consideration.

It would be very easy for something like this to become just the first step of a slippery slope, but imo it's preferable to the other slippery slope where multi-boxing & automation become commonplace to remain competitive (analogous to everyone just using premium ammo all the time).

 

[Mysteron]

I wonder if those bots are included in the agreement

That would be a good idea yes. I have used this BGS bot in the past, it's a discord bot and actually it's quite an impressive piece of programming. I have seen it used to quite horrifying effect over the years. The players who use it basically become in game proxy bots controlled by this A.I BGS mind.

 

[Vetinari]

Its a fine line for sure and I can see both sides POV.

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

I wonder if those bots are included in the agreement

No, we're not itching to tell people they're cheating because they are using Inara or have installed EDMC.

If people here think checking out a third party website to see if there's Tritium on sale nearby is cheating/botting, they can be the first to volunteer not to use that. Not holding my breath on such proposition either way. It rather sounds a lot like missing the point.

 

[Bramshevik]

There's a great deal of difference between using third-party tools and the API to coordinate real, living players doing work, and running 50 automated alt-accounts to run a faction/powerplay power into the ground. Being organised and utilising the API is within the TOS. The botting that this agreement is targeting however is not.

 

[Riverside]

No, we're not itching to tell people they're cheating because they are using Inara or have installed EDMC.

If people here think checking out a third party website to see if there's Tritium on sale nearby is cheating/botting, they can be the first to volunteer not to use that. Not holding my breath on such proposition either way. It rather sounds a lot like missing the point.

I just play the game, using the tools the game provides. Naturally that means anyone that I beat not only lost, they lost to someone not using those assists. Play how you like (within the rules obviously) but if you're using tools available to the player but not to the Cmdr as far as I'm concerned (fwiw) it's an exploit. I'm not religious about it or anything, it's just how I choose to play, I draw my personal line in a different place, I've never knowingly visited Dav's Hope for example.

However I think it is you that misses the point. That large scale automation still happens even when it's players doing the actual work, and the difference between what Mysteron describes and FDev policeable automation of one or more accounts is a semantic one rather than a technical one. FDev cannot reasonably be expected to police the type of automation Mysteron describes, but importantly, the AB-A could

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

I just play the game, using the tools the game provides. Naturally that means anyone that I beat not only lost, they lost to someone not using those assists. Play how you like (within the rules obviously) but if you're using tools available to the player but not to the Cmdr as far as I'm concerned (fwiw) it's an exploit. I'm not religious about it or anything, it's just how I choose to play, I draw my personal line in a different place, I've never knowingly visited Dav's Hope for example.

However I think it is you that misses the point. That large scale automation still happens even when it's players doing the actual work, and the difference between what Mysteron describes and FDev policeable automation of one or more accounts is a semantic one rather than a technical one. FDev cannot reasonably be expected to police the type of automation Mysteron describes, but importantly, the AB-A could

I don't think your opinion on this is without merit. It is simply a completely different discussion altogether.

One is between actual automation of accounts to play the game by themselves, and the other is about collecting in-game information through official sources such as your journal file, and building useful graphs with it outside of the game.

Likewise, using third-party software like EDMC is within the TOS, and our goal isn't to limit anyone's legitimate playstyle that actually abides by the rules FDev set out themselves. Our goal is simply to highlight the issue that certain groups of people are using third-party software that breaks the TOS, at the expense of thousands of other players who see their efforts wasted in the face of automation.

You can obviously make up your own mind by calling out people who use EDDB as if they were using an exploit. But it is dishonest to even think for a second these two very different subjects are in the same league, and I am baffled this is being brought up as "automation".

 

[Riverside]

You can obviously make up your own mind by calling out people who use EDDB as if they were using an exploit. But it is dishonest to even think for a second these two very different subjects are in the same league, and I am baffled this is being brought up as "automation".

Perhaps it would help if you read the posts, that might give you some context. Here for example:

Indeed, some factions also use advanced A.I. BGS bots that collect system information from third party sites and then simply output instructions automatically on what BGS actions to take, in which systems and how much work to do.Their members then just follow whatever the bot churns out allowing them to crush virtually any other faction they care to. This is probably not classed as cheating but it is arguably a more effective advantage than in game bots.

I don't use EDDB either (I don't recognise that acronym at all or know what kind of tool it is).

 

[Mysteron]

Perhaps it would help if you read the posts, that might give you some context. Here for example:




I don't use EDDB either (I don't recognise that acronym at all or know what kind of tool it is).

Yes indeed we are not talking about EDDB here or INARA we are talking a complex custom made BGS BOT used exclusively by one faction and their allies. This bot is not just something you use to look up information on a system, it actively feeds you precise and minutely detailed instructions on what BGS levers to pull and how hard to pull them. It is so detailed that it will tell you to do a certain amount of missions, or drop a certain amount of data or bounties to achieve the required effect. It completely negates the need to do any thinking for yourself on how to influence factions and having used it myself I can tell you it is very effective and I would go so far as to say it´s lazy, it results in the game being turned into a tedious spreadsheet driven grind it just sucks any fun out of the BGS. It has also been used to crush many small factions who dared to oppose the group in question. It´s not cheating but it is shameful.

 

[Riverside]

It´s not cheating but it is shameful.

This is a good example of the kind of automation I have in mind. And something that Frontier can't police, but the AB-A could.

It seems to me that if PvPers can agree to not use premium ammo (and we all know how rowdy & disagreeable some of them can be ), the large, well organised and above all civilised player groups signed up to this agreement could agree to keep those interesting bit of programming & automation purely for research purposes & have the players in their groups actually play the game using their collective but individual initiatives rather than simply doing what a bot tells them to do.

Seems to me that would be in the spirit of the agreement, and then rather than simply being an agreement to not break the ToS of the game (ie essentially a meaningless gesture of goodwill) it might actually have some backbone to it.

Just a thought.

 

[Mysteron]

This is a good example of the kind of automation I have in mind. And something that Frontier can't police, but the AB-A could.

It seems to me that if PvPers can agree to not use premium ammo (and we all know how rowdy & disagreeable some of them can be ), the large, well organised and above all civilised player groups signed up to this agreement could agree to keep those interesting bit of programming & automation purely for research purposes & have the players in their groups actually play the game using their collective but individual initiatives rather than simply doing what a bot tells them to do.

Seems to me that would be in the spirit of the agreement, and then rather than simply being an agreement to not break the ToS of the game (ie essentially a meaningless gesture of goodwill) it might actually have some backbone to it.

Just a thought.

Absolutely agree. This is hugely ironic as the group that are using this advanced BGS BOT that feeds them all their work on a silver spoon are in fact one of the strongest voices calling for action against in game bots. The have been using this bot for years to amass as much power and territory as they can and steam-rolling anyone who gets in their way.

 

[Bramshevik]

There is a chasm of difference between using a discord bot to retrieve information from a spreadsheet that is managed on a daily basis by a dedicated group of players to efficiently plan their activities, and using a hundred fully automated bot accounts to crush another player group.

To equate the two is just farcical. For someone who claims to have used the discord bot you're describing, you seem to lack any real knowledge of how it works. All well-organised BGS groups utilise spreadsheets to organise themselves. Having an interface with that spreadsheet on discord, external from the game itself, utilising data manually supplied by real players who spend their time collecting that data, is in absolutely no way comparable to the types of botting that this agreement is combatting.