Any news on adding a little jitter to NPC railguns?

Achilles7

Banned
Er...yeah, that's exactly what I said.

Come on StiTch...everyone knows a thread isn't complete without one of the forum-googled holy trinity: Straw-man, Ad hominem or non-sequitur - I pride myself on my ability to use all three with effortless abandon :D
 
Come on StiTch...everyone knows a thread isn't complete without one of the forum-googled holy trinity: Straw-man, Ad hominem or non-sequitur - I pride myself on my ability to use all three with effortless abandon :D

Hey, the non-sequitur is the king of comedy, even if shooed as a fallacy in an argument.

And on that note I'll profess to your non-sequiturism, because I had absolutely no idea what you meant. I didn't state anywhere my NPCs were harder; I stated that you were against one of the more poorly flown NPC vessels - i.e. the iCourier.

The AI has varying capability to utilise each ship, and for whatever reason the iCourier becomes one of the least agile ships in the game in the hands of the AI, though they can make a gunship replicate complicated gymnastics on ice.
 
I'm going to get in my MC Condor and pick fights with rail equipped NPCs.

Any guesses/wagers as to how many I can get through before they pop my SLF?
 
I'm going to get in my MC Condor and pick fights with rail equipped NPCs.

Any guesses/wagers as to how many I can get through before they pop my SLF?

I'd like to make some rules to simulate the only situation in which this is an issue.

Go to a CZ. If you have multiple crew members, use your lowest level (or humour me and hire a 'competent' just for the test, then fire him). Engage someone, a python or something that definitely won't have rails. Now launch the SLF, target an eagle or a DBS with rails that you have identified, then order your SLF to attack it. As soon as it gets aggro, tell it to return to your python target, so it is not consciously evading the rail equipped ship. I bet it doesn't last more than 30 seconds after completing that little sequence of events, but I'm prepared to be wrong. :)

However, even if you do manage to prove that an SLF can live through a few kills, that doesn't change the fact that their aim is unnaturally good. Anybody who would deny that is just playing devil's advocate or trolling.


You can't be serious. *sigh* I repeat: However, even if you do manage to prove that an SLF can live through a few kills, that doesn't change the fact that their aim is unnaturally good. Anybody who would deny that is just playing devil's advocate or trolling.
 
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I get tagged by NPC rails all the time, but I fly a conda. A Storm Trooper can hit me with a rail gun when I'm flying that thing. My SLF pilot does fine against NPC's except for a CZ. but that is because she gets tag teamed by the other side. It must be her name....[haha]

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NPC crewed SLFs absolutely have difficulty in CZs, and they should.

I can last much longer if I pilot the SLF myself (though I can certainly still be overwhelmed if I'm not careful, which is also quite reasonable), and since my mothership won't be brought down by any ten NPCs even with a moron NPC crew at the helm, it's far better if I'm in the SLF.

that doesn't change the fact that their aim is unnaturally good. Anybody who would deny that is just playing devil's advocate or trolling.

I completely disagree.

Top teir CMDRs will land rail hits at close range on my SLFs about three or four times as often as the best Elite NPCs I've ever encountered (and I spend a lot of time in the SLF in CZs and such). At range, I almost never see these CMDRs miss, due to the way the micro gimbal lock works on fixed weapons.

If an Elite NPC matches the best CMDRs in the game (and they fall well short), I'd be ok with that.
 
NPC crewed SLFs absolutely have difficulty in CZs, and they should.

I can last much longer if I pilot the SLF myself (though I can certainly still be overwhelmed if I'm not careful, which is also quite reasonable), and since my mothership won't be brought down by any ten NPCs even with a moron NPC crew at the helm, it's far better if I'm in the SLF.



I completely disagree.

Top teir CMDRs will land rail hits at close range on my SLFs about three or four times as often as the best Elite NPCs I've ever encountered (and I spend a lot of time in the SLF in CZs and such). At range, I almost never see these CMDRs miss, due to the way the micro gimbal lock works on fixed weapons.

If an Elite NPC matches the best CMDRs in the game (and they fall well short), I'd be ok with that.

I realise you and our mates are abso-fricking-lutely-super-amazing at this game. I'm not bad myself, but you realise that others also play it, yeh?

Do the CZ vid according to my rules, or I'm simply going ot say you have selective memory.
 
I'm ocd about maximizing, so when I learned that I'll never make elite if I use a fighter, that was that. Shame cos they are fun. I do so many assassinations and distress calls, he was going up really fast. I don't know whether to keep him or fire him now, I'm not too bothered about the credits, the man's gotta live, it's the combat xp I can't do without.

Eh? I made elite and I had a fighter.
 
Eh? I made elite and I had a fighter.

And I can juggle 4 balls while solving a rubik's cube and having sex. So what?

So, once again for the cheap seats in the back...

Fighter takes half your xp. I don't play many hours a day, sadly, so using a fighter means I reach the next rank in 6 months instead of 3. Capiche? But that's another thread, wanna link?
 
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And I can juggle 4 balls while solving a rubik's cube and having sex. So what?

So, once again for the cheap seats in the back...

Fighter takes half your xp. I don't play many hours a day, sadly, so using a fighter means I reach the next rank in 6 months instead of 3. Capiche?

No need to be rude, you state you can't make elite if you use a fighter. That isn't the case.
 
No need to be rude, you state you can't make elite if you use a fighter. That isn't the case.

Yeh, sorry about that, I'm just sick of justifying myself to people who seem to deliberately misunderstand (double apologies if that isn't you, it IS a lot of people around here, and I've had a really stressful day, so not feeling like sugar coating anything).

P.S. I didn't state you can't make Elite while using a fighter, I IMPLIED that it was more difficult (by saying I'll 'never' (figurative) make Elite with a figher, due to the amount of time I have to play), which it is.
 
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Deleted member 38366

D
My only gripe about NPC Railgun Aimbots is concerning the SLF.

Whenever I decide to "hey, let's fly the little thing myself" in a CZ, my trip is always interrupted by some god-like Railgun bot that easily hits my Silent Running, Heatsink-Popping, FA off Afterburning and 3D-dodging Imp.Fighter from 2.5km.
Literally. Always. Every. Single. Time.

At times, it feels Railguns in a CZ only serve one single purpose - kill my SLFs :D
And if there are none left in the Instance (I tend to specifically clean them out, just to buy me 1-2 Minutes of SLF time), guess what? New ones spawn, always ~1km from my position and always at least one Rail-bot xD
 
I realise you and our mates are abso-fricking-lutely-super-amazing at this game. I'm not bad myself, but you realise that others also play it, yeh?

I'm pretty horrible with railguns and high rank NPCs can absolutely match or best my aim.

However, you have been insisting that NPCs are unnaturally good, when this is clearly not the case. The benchmark for that would be the best human player there is, not me, not you, not everyone else...and the best players are better than the best NPCs in this regard.

NPCs have, quite literally, unnaturally poor rail aim.

Do the CZ vid according to my rules, or I'm simply going ot say you have selective memory.

I don't have selective memory.

I also don't think the scenario you outlined would end any differently than you've said it would. We are in complete agreement on that particular point.

However, I also think that if that's what you are doing with SLFs in a CZ, you are utilizing them poorly. They cannot be sent into groups of NPC hostiles and be expected to survive long with NPC crew. They have to be micromanaged a bit if you want them to last more than a few minutes.

Whenever I decide to "hey, let's fly the little thing myself" in a CZ, my trip is always interrupted by some god-like Railgun bot that easily hits my FA off Afterburning and 3D-dodging Imp.Fighter from 2.5km. Literally. Always. Every. Single. Time.

I am objectively not that good with railguns (my timing is all off) and I can hit an SLF with a railgun from 2.5km virtually every time because fixed weapons have almost a half degree of snap-locking gimbalness to them.

The further away you are the less your evasion or speed matters because you are changing your position relative to their point of aim at correspondingly lower rate as distance increases. You can move a few degrees per second, max, at 2.5km, rather than triple digit degrees per second at close range.
 
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Go to a CZ. If you have multiple crew members, use your lowest level (or humour me and hire a 'competent' just for the test, then fire him). Engage someone, a python or something that definitely won't have rails. Now launch the SLF, target an eagle or a DBS with rails that you have identified, then order your SLF to attack it. As soon as it gets aggro, tell it to return to your python target, so it is not consciously evading the rail equipped ship. I bet it doesn't last more than 30 seconds after completing that little sequence of events, but I'm prepared to be wrong. :)

Apart from the general issue being discussed, what kind of test is this? A low-ranked pilot in an SLF ignoring a rail-equipped ship? What do you think the outcome should be? :S
 
I'm pretty horrible with railguns and high rank NPCs can absolutely match or best my aim.

However, you have been insisting that NPCs are unnaturally good, when this is clearly not the case. The benchmark for that would be the best human player there is, not me, not you, not everyone else...and the best players are better than the best NPCs in this regard.

NPCs have, quite literally, unnaturally poor rail aim.



I don't have selective memory.

I also don't think the scenario you outlined would end any differently than you've said it would. We are in complete agreement on that particular point.

However, I also think that if that's what you are doing with SLFs in a CZ, you are utilizing them poorly. They cannot be sent into groups of NPC hostiles and be expected to survive long with NPC crew. They have to be micromanaged a bit if you want them to last more than a few minutes.

I hear ya, and again, this was never about me, this was about a half remembered promise that something would be done when MANY people complained about the unnaturally good aim of NPCs with rails in the game.

I don't use the fighter in CZs, I very rarely do CZs, I use the fighter for distraction when I aggro one or two too many in a RES or during a distress call, or whatever. Anyway, like I say, it's not about me.

I will never agree that they have poor railgun aim. You put a railgun in the hands of the average pilot that doesn't do a great deal of combat, but isn't useless. You then put a 'competent' NPC with railguns in a similar ship and order them both to shoot at an eagle 2km away. Don't even think about telling me that the player will land a SINGLE shot, while the NPC will land three hits in a row. I find that a far more meaningful paradigm than your assertion that the best NPC should match the best humans. That would be a movingn goalpost anyway, as humans will keep getting better and better, such is our nature.

When I say selective memory this is what I mean, either you remember the humans being much better than they are, or you remember the NPCs being much worse than they are.

Apart from the general issue being discussed, what kind of test is this? A low-ranked pilot in an SLF ignoring a rail-equipped ship? What do you think the outcome should be? :S

The point is how long it would last, less than 10 seconds or two rail shots, because the NPCs don't miss. Now put a 'competent' human in an eagle with railguns and tell him to hit an SLF (which is focused on another target) twice in a row. :) I keep saying I'm decent with rails, but I wouldn't even consider wasting the ammo trying to hit an SLF at any range, although I admit micro gimballing at long range is damn useful, if the fighter is engaged and evasive, it's still quite the ask.
 
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Achilles7

Banned
You can't be serious. *sigh* I repeat: However, even if you do manage to prove that an SLF can live through a few kills, that doesn't change the fact that their aim is unnaturally good. Anybody who would deny that is just playing devil's advocate or trolling.

I'm completely okay with them hitting 100% of the time when there is no significant evasion. No trolling going on here!

NPCs aim is very very good, I grant you, hence a well-timed boost with lateral/vertical thrust is the only way to avoid them...so perhaps, I could go with introducing some FA-OFF thruster evasion as an additional effective technique. This works against players on occasions, but very skilled cmdrs still have the ability to extrapolate & make informed guesses with trajectories & repeated patterns of piloting making them almost as infallible; it doesn't work at all against NPCs because they instantaneously read your control input telemetry & aim accordingly. Perhaps some delay could be built in to how they track us to facilitate this.

I remember when 2.1 dropped with fully engineered rail NPCs! LOL I went to a CZ & two FASs engaged me straight away; they broke my shield in about 10secs, so I boosted away spiralling with FAOFF plus alternate vertical thrust then lateral thrust. I thought evasive escape would be no problem since a Vulture previously could outrun any NPC anyway...not straight after 2.1 though - these FASs caught me so fast - despite the fact I'd turned first & boosted past them while they were facing me - they then took out my thrusters with their rails while I was spiralling in about 5 secs flat!

So yeah, I'm okay with them as they are these days - they're puddy cats by comparison! [big grin]
 
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To be honest, I too am 'ok' with how they are today. It wasn't me that asked for the change and it wasn't me that promised it, I'm just reminding FD. I will be honest though, when I AM in the FAS in a CZ, and I suddenly get hit by 2 rail strikes in a row from across the map, I do remember this thread and the ones that have gone before it. They're never going to kill me, but it is unfair, and annoying. :p

I'd give NPCs an AI buff, and I'd give them G4 engineering to anything they want, I would still nerf their aim (and their Eyeball) though. :p
 
I find that a far more meaningful paradigm than your assertion that the best NPC should match the best humans. That would be a movingn goalpost anyway, as humans will keep getting better and better, such is our nature.

The limit is perfect accuracy, and humans will always fall short, while NPCs could easily be given very near 100% accuracy at all ranges with hit-scan weapons, even ones with a firing delay.

When I say selective memory this is what I mean, either you remember the humans being much better than they are, or you remember the NPCs being much worse than they are.

That's not accurate either. I'm acutely aware of how crappy most CMDRs are as well as being aware of how much tighter the spread of NPC aim is.

I'm still dealing with absolutes here, from 0 to 100% of shots landed. The NPC spread needs to be wider, quite possibly on both ends of the scale, to be believable.

NPCs aim is very very good, I grant you, hence a well-timed boost with lateral/vertical thrust is the only way to avoid them..

Most NPC ranks do not react well to constantly changing velocity vectors at close range, even if the rate is rather mild. Get an SFL inside 300m and most NPCs will be missing a majority of their shots, even if you don't boost.
 
The point is how long it would last, less than 10 seconds or two rail shots, because the NPCs don't miss. Now put a 'competent' human in an eagle with railguns and tell him to hit an SLF (which is focused on another target) twice in a row. :) I keep saying I'm decent with rails, but I wouldn't even consider wasting the ammo trying to hit an SLF at any range, although I admit micro gimballing at long range is damn useful, if the fighter is engaged and evasive, it's still quite the ask.

Not sure, but arent rail-equipped NPCs in CZs all high-ranked? If not than it is indeed a scaling issue: competent ranked NPCs should not reliably hit SLFs, even when flown by low-ranked pilots. Deadly and Elite ones should, IMHO.
 
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