Apologies to the PvPer I just offended

I agree on the second and third sentences, but regarding the first one I wouldn't say "consent" as such it is not required at all by other players (does a NPC have to consent for same reasons?)... I mean, just the other way around, there's no right whatsoever to do not consent PvP in open. Besides I reckon, as you mentioned, there are the ways to deal with PvP risks/encounters.

Well, the "consent" part is an older pet peeve of mine.

As in being in Open doesn't mean that i consent to be ganked (as some gankers seem to imply), pretty much like when i cross the street i dont consent to be run over by a car 🤷‍♂️
So while bad stuff might happen, it doesnt mean it's consensual
 
Well, the "consent" part is an older pet peeve of mine.

As in being in Open doesn't mean that i consent to be ganked (as some gankers seem to imply), pretty much like when i cross the street i dont consent to be run over by a car 🤷‍♂️
So while bad stuff might happen, it doesnt mean it's consensual

See, I'm of the opposite camp. It even says when you choose Open now "you may encounter other CMDRs". That, to me at least, means you're consenting to playing with other CMDRs and as long as they don't break the TOS then anything goes. Attacking and blowing up other CMDRs for any reason, at anytime, anywhere is not breaking the TOS.

The RL example is a false equivalence as there is no other option you could choose, unlike the mode system in ED. There's also the wider aspect of insta-regen in Elite vs unlikely regen in RL - though who knows, amirite?
 
I had an 'experience' recently...
So - my faction is at war.
I log into open, and head to a CZ (In a Cutter)
I get to the CZ, and find a Cmdr (In a Corvette), supporting the enemy faction.
He is red on the radar and we are both hostile to each other (Signed up to our respective factions) Also, he seems to have been there a little while, and is certainly carrying combat bonds.
We fight - I shoot at him first, but he stays and returns fire.
I win and send him to rebuy.

I put this up on YouTube, and got quite a few different Cmdr's telling me I was in the wrong.
That they thought this Cmdr had lost his Corvette (He hadn't) and were asking me if I was "...Proud of myself...".
I mean...I was at the CZ for PvE, but am I supposed to just sit and watch an enemy work against my squads faction?

Don't worry about it @Scoob
Some Cmdr's will complain no matter what you do, regardless of context.
Just have fun doing what your doing - Even Braben himself couldn't ask for more! o7
 
Well, the "consent" part is an older pet peeve of mine.

As in being in Open doesn't mean that i consent to be ganked (as some gankers seem to imply), pretty much like when i cross the street i dont consent to be run over by a car 🤷‍♂️
So while bad stuff might happen, it doesnt mean it's consensual

Aye, I've got the meaning (y) (and being careful when crossing streets :geek: ) and, after all, I'd like to remark that "bad" encounters in non-popular systems are a very small % of the total. Not the same for a CG, Shinny etc. of course, besides all of them are legit.
 
I had an 'experience' recently...
So - my faction is at war.
I log into open, and head to a CZ (In a Cutter)
I get to the CZ, and find a Cmdr (In a Corvette), supporting the enemy faction.
He is red on the radar and we are both hostile to each other (Signed up to our respective factions) Also, he seems to have been there a little while, and is certainly carrying combat bonds.
We fight - I shoot at him first, but he stays and returns fire.
I win and send him to rebuy.

I put this up on YouTube, and got quite a few different Cmdr's telling me I was in the wrong.
That they thought this Cmdr had lost his Corvette (He hadn't) and were asking me if I was "...Proud of myself...".
I mean...I was at the CZ for PvE, but am I supposed to just sit and watch an enemy work against my squads faction?

Don't worry about it @Scoob
Some Cmdr's will complain no matter what you do, regardless of context.
Just have fun doing what your doing - Even Braben himself couldn't ask for more! o7
I think it is decent to respect player privacy and using any of that in a public video is not.
 
I think "consent" is quite ambiguous in many ways, assuming just because someone is there, they must consent to any action you want to do is a bit weird. I mean, I'd "consent" to being hunted by a player if I had a high bounty, as I would if I had a cargo someone wanted. Death in the first instance seems a reasonable conclusion to that interaction, being robbed (but surviving) a reasonable one in the second - a wise Pirate wants to rob you again someday, they can't if they've been blocked because you're dead to them now. Both players experience a role-play themed encounter in those instances based on their prior actions - be it gaining that Bounty in the first place (naughty naughty!) or carrying a valuable cargo in a dangerous area because the potential profits were too tempting. That's good, solid in-game role play appropriate to the game, hopefully enjoyed by both parties. As is the strongly implied "consent" when people are on opposite sides in a CZ with both in combat-oriented ships. A (perhaps) fair fight with allies on both sides.

Assuming that just because someone is in Open that they want to partake (as the victim) in another player's fetish for killing unchallenging targets, isn't right. Many clearly don't want that sort of player interaction. No role play applies here because in part because its so easy to exploit the Crime and Punishment system (or lack of) in the game and the massive difference between a ship outfitted for trade and one purely for killing. Add to that the lack of counter to a PvP ship's load out if a vessel equipped for anything else, there's no balance, no joint player experience. One gets a buzz from easily killing you as part of their sociopathic role play, the other gets a rebuy screen. One party get their quick fix, the other likely frustration for a meaningless (role play) encounter.

It's a shame how balance has swung so wildly in favour of the aggressor in any encounter. My Anaconda, as an example, is primarily about carrying cargo. Sure, it has guns but they're turrets (bar one MC) so struggle to hit a nimble ship as turret AI is a bit rubbish - actually, it's embarrassingly bad at times, regularly shooting where the target was. Turrets are carp, but often the only practical option. The ship also has what I consider decent shields, with good resistances, decent recharge and a healthy pool of hit points, making your average combat encounter fairly survivable. However, that main defence can be quickly negated by ONE weapon - 100% to no shields within seconds of the encounter starting. Next I have a fairly decent hull with some hull and module reinforcement, but those were negated very quickly when the ship's Power Plant was easily sniped. So, all those compromises I made, seeing the Anaconda able to carry less cargo and be less effective at its designated role counted for naught due to the excessive balance creep between defender and attacker.

I don't know how this can be handled so everyone can have fun. Sure, I could team up with three other players and role play that way, but I'm generally alone. Being able to hire Mercenaries to guard me would be a fairly decent option. To be clear, I'd envision these guys would be law abiding so if I took an illegal action - say I was the aggressor - at best they'd abandon me (at they don't want to become wanted, their livelihoods depend on it) at worst they might see their (ex) boss as a bounty opportunity due to your actions.

To be clear someone saying "You can't attack me because I don't want it" is just the other side of "You must let me attack you because I want it" when in the open environment. One side of that equation has basically all the exploits / game imbalances in their favour though. Sure, we all expect to have interactions with other players in open, we consent to that, it doesn't mean a Player just wants to be killed in moment with zero counter option due to game balance choices. The fact that a PvPer can so easily kill a ship built for any other role feels very much like an exploit to me. The game balance is such that things are 100% in the aggressor's favour.

With a more robust system to make the killing of Clean players in (relatively) weak ships have at least some consequences would go a long way to improving open for the majority. It'd no longer be a case of "Ha ha, I can do what I want because it's open and there are no consequences for me.". I'm sure there still would be the "murder hobos" (funny name lol) but they would certainly gain the combat experiences they evidently desire if lots of high-end NPC Bounty Hunters jump them every time they arrive in a system with some degree of security. I can imagine dedicated Bounty Hunting NPC's hanging around around main stars waiting for these guys...that'd be epic.

It's a shame because I've had great cooperative experiences with other players in past where we've both enjoyed the narrative that's played out. Be it simple team bounty hunting, other co-op missions, or the more experienced player guiding another through certain aspects of the game. Being blown up by a sociopathic player during these would really have entirely ruined the experience, which is why most were done in PG.

@Reggit - you see, to me, that's a near perfect example of a solid role-play encounter. There are reasons for you both to fight and you both appear to be in combat ships, though I don't know the individual load outs of course. I assume the guy didn't mind featuring in your video? I don't know how things work in that respect.

At the end of the day, we may encounter sociopaths in the game - we hope it's just role-play! ;) That's never going to be a fun, rewarding encounter for one of the players at least. The heavily exploitable nature of several aspects of the game is as much to blame as anything here. I'm exceedingly grateful that SOLO and Private Group exist, I just wish the likes of Mobius were more populated.
 
Well, the "consent" part is an older pet peeve of mine.

As in being in Open doesn't mean that i consent to be ganked (as some gankers seem to imply), pretty much like when i cross the street i dont consent to be run over by a car 🤷‍♂️
So while bad stuff might happen, it doesnt mean it's consensual

See, I'm of the opposite camp. It even says when you choose Open now "you may encounter other CMDRs". That, to me at least, means you're consenting to playing with other CMDRs and as long as they don't break the TOS then anything goes. Attacking and blowing up other CMDRs for any reason, at anytime, anywhere is not breaking the TOS.

The RL example is a false equivalence as there is no other option you could choose, unlike the mode system in ED. There's also the wider aspect of insta-regen in Elite vs unlikely regen in RL - though who knows, amirite?
I think you're both right! To me, playing a video game with others means trying to make sure that we all have a good experience. But ED does make it fairly obvious that anything can happen in Open.

I resolve this by saying to myself, "I'll always try to communicate; understand whatever people are trying to do and not intentionally mess it up." I consider that basic RL politeness. The flip side is that if someone doesn't extend that politeness to me I stop playing with them, recognising that it's going to be a waste of time for both of us.
 
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I resolve this by saying to myself, "I'll always try to communicate; understand whatever people are trying to do and not intentionally mess it up." I consider that basic RL politeness. The flip side is that if someone doesn't extend that politeness to me I stop playing with them, recognising that it's going to be a waste of time for both of us.

That's basically the essence of the reason for this thread. There was evidently a breakdown of communication - i.e. none before pew pew - and assumptions with different expectations on both sides. Sadly, after saying his piece, the other guy did not want to enter dialogue about the situation, happy it seems to accuse me of Combat Logging (wrong) and telling me to stick to SOLO (rude). No one benefited from this and the initial error (I'm in open? Oh...) was on me.
 
That's basically the essence of the reason for this thread. There was evidently a breakdown of communication - i.e. none before pew pew - and assumptions with different expectations on both sides. Sadly, after saying his piece, the other guy did not want to enter dialogue about the situation, happy it seems to accuse me of Combat Logging (wrong) and telling me to stick to SOLO (rude). No one benefited from this and the initial error (I'm in open? Oh...) was on me.
In the end, its just a game...even as over the top serious as some players take it...

(you weren't inadvertently in a tournament, were you? LOL)
 
A ganker doesn't need a reason. Their justified by the games mechanics allowing it to happen.
That's the problem.
There's no depth. Just interdict and open fire with torps blah blah so on..
They should be restricted to non populated space or lawless systems.
Do that which was suggested long ago apparently, and problem Is solved.
But the only real profound change would be to make noteriety permanent.
 
The RL example is a false equivalence as there is no other option you could choose

Nope, if i want to play with randoms, there is only one mode: Open.
And playing socially doesnt necessarily mean PVP (i'm not against PVP, but well, PVP in Elite is really onesided unless both players are into PVP and looking after PVP)

Fortunately, we do have the block function if someone is getting really obnoxious (as a side note: my block list is empty)
 
In the end, its just a game...even as over the top serious as some players take it...

(you weren't inadvertently in a tournament, were you? LOL)

Only a game? How dare you sir, how dare you! ;)

Yeah, it's just a game, but we're all actually people playing it during our leisure time and I'd certainly prefer it if we all had fun during any interactions.

A ganker doesn't need a reason. Their justified by the games mechanics allowing it to happen.
That's the problem.
There's no depth. Just interdict and open fire with torps blah blah so on..
They should be restricted to non populated space or lawless systems.
Do that which was suggested long ago apparently, and problem Is solved.
But the only real profound change would be to make noteriety permanent.

It's certainly the system that's to blame here, I agree. Harsher penalties / consequences / restrictions (whatever) for a player who insists on being on the wrong side of the law has great potential to enhance such gameplay while at the same time helping to protect players from random player killing. Knowing you're going to be hunted down incessantly by high-tier NPC's if you venture into given systems after being a very naughty boy (or girl, or messiah) might make people think twice...and do it anyway.
 
Lot's o' words

The situation is complex because we are joining a game world that is not analogous to real life.

Thought experiment time.

Open in ED is a blank slate in that the only rules are those enforced and dictated by Frontier. This is the TOS, so no cheating or using exploits as defined by Frontier you naughty boy.

Interactions in game and your perceptions of another CMDRs actions are moot. If you play in Open you accept Open's rules which are simply "don't break the TOS".

It doesn't matter if I do or don't want to be attacked - the terms of Open mean that I can be attacked, anywhere at anytime for any reason. This is what I mean by consent - the fact you choose Open means you have to accept these rules. Different frameworks exist for Solo and PG of course.

By the same token, a menu-log is within the TOS so is a viable way out at anytime for any reason. No one has to like either example but that is, as I said, moot. It's the game world we inhabit.

By the same token, playing ED in 2022 means that Open only players must accept the fact their galaxy is affected by players in Solo and PG.

Now, it's a separate argument when we talk about behaviours and promoting or restricting gameplay within the ED world. Ought some game-loops be encouraged over others? Yes, absolutely. We can continually suggest and forment for change to promote our, or anyones else's preferred activities in game but we ought not to forget that the "moral" rules we bring into the game come from ourselves, not the game and therefore are optional.

Finally, I disagree that the advantage lies with the attacker. As far as I can work out the main advantages lie very much with the defender.

Again, thought experiment time.

Consider you have a "Survivability" rating of 100, that can go up or down depending on your actions. 0 means that you die in game.

So, using only in game tools, how can you max out this rating? Some ideas could include monitoring your bandwidth settings. That will immediately increase your score as you will be forewarned that other CMDRs are in the system you are in. The next thing could be to park at the star on entry to the system so that a hostile CMDR cannot interdict you so you can check out the lay of the land using your scanner. You can then scan CMDRs and see if they are wanted, or are known to you as ne'er do wells. You get the idea.

If you jump blindly into a system and head straight for your target without checking anyone else is present - take 20 points off. If you don't even notice open squares or worse, triangles, manoeuvring into position behind you, take off another 20. If you start to get interdicted, take off another 20, and another 20 if you fight it. (I am yet to win a PvP interdiction in a bazillion hours of gameplay). If you try to low-wake - lose another 20 and hey presto you are facing the rebuy screen OR fancy your chances of surviving 10 seconds of fire? Gain +100 points by menu-logging!

So you can see that being blown up is very much a choice - consciously or unconsciously what you do in game affects your survivability. I am not talking about winning - to win a non PvP ship merely needs to do what they set out to do - get to a station, deliver a cargo etc.

This is how I play in Open as a non-PvPer - ensuring my survivability is as high as possible at all times, or risking survivability to achieve a goal. Most of the time the bandwidth settings stay low so Open is more or less indistinguishable from Solo. As much as I would like to claim this is effective 100% of the time, it isn't BUT I can often pinpoint the mistake I made leading the rating to drop down to zero, and of course there is always next time.

Fly Dangerous!
 
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Only a game? How dare you sir, how dare you! ;)

Yeah, it's just a game, but we're all actually people playing it during our leisure time and I'd certainly prefer it if we all had fun during any interactions.
...
Sadly its the story of humanity really; one person's fun is another person's disaster...
 
Are there any (Open) counters to this while still being in a ship useful for the intended task, be it trade or otherwise?
Yes. You can evade a pvp ship in most builds as long as you submit to the interdiction and then immediately high wake. An ‘open ready’ cargo cutter is fairly easy to build using 6A prismatic shields, and I even have a shieldless T9 that can evade most attacks.
 
It's a bit hairy if the ganker has special effects weapons to disable shield and fsd..

Though I think next time I'm in a situation that I've been interdicted and I can't highwake because of dumbfires or grom bombs, then I'll do the menu log just to spite whoever wanted to gank me.. :D
 
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