Appeal to FD: please give more thought to the multicrew session 'activity type' naming shown in the livestream

mung0

mung0
Appeal to FD: please give more thought to the multicrew session 'activity type' naming shown in the livestream

..namely, bundling general illegal pewpew activities under the label 'piracy' - please please please, don't do that.

Us semi/professional pirates have gone through great pains to try and keep ourselves distinguishable from the 'ganking' & randomly murderering crowd. Because that's not what we're about - we're after people's cargo, not to kill them (unless it comes to that). Just going around murdering others is NOT piracy.

Every time this falsehood is perpetuated, that encountering a player pirate means a battle to the death must ensue, our uphill struggle to maintain a good reputation (and maybe not get logged on by all & sundry in pre-emptive supposed self defence) gets a little harder.

Btw bounty hunting as a 'legal' activity is also a misnomer, not all bounty hunting is legal by any means.

If you want to list generic 'legal combat activity' and 'illegal combat activity' as separate choices (which makes a lot of sense), then please do just that - name them as simply 'legal' and 'illegal' oriented.

Piracy is a specialism and belongs under the 'other' section along with mining, exploration etc. it is NOT generic, and if you try to label it as such, you're only helping to kill it off altogether.

Thanks,

Mungo.

ø7
 

Ezren

Ezren
I think until piracy is really developed more, it's going to be hard to distinguish the entire field.

If we're going to simplify the whole thing, there's the "good vs evil" way to look at it. But you're trying to adhere to "lawful evil" and gankers and the like are "chaotic evil". There are no rules for illegal activity. So there's no discerning one from the other; you either break the law or you don't, but no further "rules" apply to discern how you did so.

As I see the simplest possible solution, would be an in-game option to demand cargo. Right there in contacts, same as requesting docking (if we're getting fancy, add a scrolling number to transmit to indicate how much demanded, maxing out at your/their current cargo/capacity, whichever is lower). Prompt the target with a message, they can accept (dumping cargo) or refuse. Then, the game could track that the player was presented with demands, and met or denied those demands: any aggressive action outside of that interaction is not piracy. And hey, that would work with NPCs, hooray.

But that's not what we have; right now there is no way to "measure" piracy in the context of the game. You can look at what somebody is doing and say "yeah, piracy" but the game cannot make that distinction without establishing a defined criteria.

As it is now, the illegal activity water is muddy.
 

mung0

mung0
Ezren said:
I think until piracy is really developed more, it's going to be hard to distinguish the entire field.

If we're going to simplify the whole thing, there's the "good vs evil" way to look at it. But you're trying to adhere to "lawful evil" and gankers and the like are "chaotic evil". There are no rules for illegal activity. So there's no discerning one from the other; you either break the law or you don't, but no further "rules" apply to discern how you did so.

As I see the simplest possible solution, would be an in-game option to demand cargo. Right there in contacts, same as requesting docking (if we're getting fancy, add a scrolling number to transmit to indicate how much demanded, maxing out at your/their current cargo/capacity, whichever is lower). Prompt the target with a message, they can accept (dumping cargo) or refuse. Then, the game could track that the player was presented with demands, and met or denied those demands: any aggressive action outside of that interaction is not piracy. And hey, that would work with NPCs, hooray.

But that's not what we have; right now there is no way to "measure" piracy in the context of the game. You can look at what somebody is doing and say "yeah, piracy" but the game cannot make that distinction without establishing a defined criteria.

As it is now, the illegal activity water is muddy.
Click to expand...

Quite so, there are no official definitions because these are the very examples of the 'emergent gameplay' they're so proud of - if they start to throw them all under generic headers that gate people's activities, then they're only helping to kill the emergent professions off.
 

Hooplah

Hooplah
There are pirates who follow rules of engagement that they have decided upon and pirates who kill every ship they attack. It will probably be the same for M-C. Maybe even less getting enough "griefer" pirates together for any length of time to be effective. There will probably be a lot more "good" pirates (according to one's view) thus another option for pirating.

Per the live stream videos M-C is a short duration friends play together moment for fun. Let's first see how it works out.
 

CMDR Nef

CMDR Nef
mung0 said:
Quite so, there are no official definitions because these are the very examples of the 'emergent gameplay' they're so proud of - if they start to throw them all under generic headers that gate people's activities, then they're only helping to kill the emergent professions off.
Click to expand...

Singed as well. They do need to flesh it out, as it's done in other video games. Like Ezren said in their very first part, about no dicerning illegal activity. It's either legal, or illegal, and that's all the game sees, but for a human, there's quite a difference between a thief and a murderer. Imagine if everyone thought the very moment they spotted a member of the thieves guild in Skyrim, that they were going to 100% be murdered, haha. Most people in other games are angry, rather than afraid when they spot a theif/pirate. "Damned thieves keep robbing me blind!" In Elite, people spot another human being, and are terrified of them, so much so, to the point that they just vanish from reality as a saftey precaution, rather than actually seeing what they will do. I imagine quite a few pirates have said, "But we're theives, not murde- *combat logged* ....ers. Well... shoot..."

There really does need to be a seperate category for piracy, and general illegal pew pew. Seems right now, the only option for multi-crew PVP in the menu, (beyond trying some of that nearly impossible to initiate player-based bounty hunting) is by grouping through the piracy tab.
 
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Ezren

Ezren
mung0 said:
Quite so, there are no official definitions because these are the very examples of the 'emergent gameplay' they're so proud of - if they start to throw them all under generic headers that gate people's activities, then they're only helping to kill the emergent professions off.
Click to expand...

Well either way, don't be sour on the system until we've got all the answers for it. Formulate that concise question and posit it in the 2.3 questions thread so we can try to have it addressed.
 

CMDR Nef

CMDR Nef
We need some kind of "murder" tab. Can't think of a word for it. A general "Want to cause a ruckus?" tab. The "GTA" tab, haha.
 

Mole HD

Mole HD
Excellent post, Mung0...*signed* with hope....

However, I can't ever see multipew providing anything to help in any respect, it's merely a casual gamer's play mode with no mechanic for any gameplay outside of itself.
 

LostLegend

LostLegend
Signed*

Not the swashbuckling type myself, but multi-crew does seem like it could be a big boon for piracy if implemented correctly.
Will the profits from sale of stolen booty be divided up amongst crew though?

You'd have to ask what the point is if not.
 

Winterwalker

Winterwalker
I think maybe over-thinking this one? For me the feature solves a dual purpose, pretty nicely actually.

1. what kind of activity are you interetsed in
2. do you allow illegal activites on your ship

Now even if you're a gentleman pirate, piracy is still 'illegal' (it's extortion basically? or at least interdicting people without permission) but you do have the option to boot a crewman. So even if he/she is invited aboard a piracy (illegal activity) ship, all you need to do is make clear that while your activity is piracy you have a code of conduct, that some actions are unacceptable to you, that you'll boot the crewman if they break your ship rules? If they don't like your rules then they might leave, no loss, or you might end up mentoring a wild and untamed murderous scurvy when they arrive, into a knder gentler buccaneering sort by the time you've finished. I don't think you can realistically invite someone on to a piracy ship though, while telling them you're not going to be breaking any laws. Even if you're swashbuckling, piracy is still a hanging offence!?

[up]
 
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mung0

mung0
Winterwalker said:
I think maybe over-thinking this one? For me the feature solves a dual purpose, pretty nicely actually.

1. what kind of activity are you interetsed in
2. do you allow illegal activites on your ship

Now even if you're a gentleman pirate, piracy is still 'illegal' (it's extortion basically? or at least interdicting people without permission) but you do have the option to boot a crewman. So even if he/she is invited aboard a piracy (illegal activity) ship, all you need to do is make clear that while your activity is piracy you have a code of conduct, that some actions are unacceptable to you, that you'll boot the crewman if they break your ship rules? If they don't like your rules then they might leave, no loss, or you might end up mentoring a wild and untamed murderous scurvy when they arrive, into a knder gentler buccaneering sort by the time you've finished. I don't think you can realistically invite someone on to a piracy ship though, while telling them you're not going to be breaking any laws. Even if you're swashbuckling, piracy is still a hanging offence!?

[up]
Click to expand...

This isn't really about the choices in the menu themselves (which are fine), it's purely about the terminology & what people think when they see or hear the term 'pirate'. Piracy is illegal when not conducted in an anarchy system sure, but that doesn't mean there isn't a code of ethics behind it. That's one of the main principals that sets professional pirates apart from your general murderer.

It's bad enough that the npc pirates are so trigger-happy, but if the game itself bundles all miscreants together as 'pirates' then we're kinda screwed.

The key tenet of professional piracy as conducted by & large, is that you don't kill someone as long as they comply with your demand for cargo. Because why would they ever bother complying with a pirate again if you do? Also they may spread word to others, to not bother complying with any pirate they meet. This gives us all a bad name when people do that, and causes many more difficulties in the act of piracy itself. Difficulties we could do without. Now we can't force anyone to play by these rules (nor do we wish to, play the game however you want) however we do always appeal to all concerned to keep it profesh for the sake of player pirates everywhere.

Then on the other side there's the straight-up murderers who aren't interested in anyone's cargo but claim to by pirates as part of an 'rp' vibe. Again there's nothing we can do to stop them, but it does add to our woes.

Tall & short of all this, is that we have quite enough of a time trying to get people to understand piracy already, what with the lasers-first npcs, some shall-we-say 'less than courteous' pirates, and the murderers with rp affectations - what we don't need, is the game menu itself perpetuating more false impressions on top of all that.
 

PBSF Pendragon

PBSF Pendragon
Thi is spot on. The only problem I can see is that while the difference between piracy and "PvP Enthusiasm" is pretty obvious to a human, to Elite's algorithms it would be pretty hard.

It might be nice to have a different option however I don't know if the reason frontier haven't done that (Bounty Hunting / Trade / Mining / Piracy / That one other I can't remember / And THEN add "PvP Enhusiasm") is becuase it would legitimise it, and while they respect that the game is open and people are free to do what they want, they don't want to legitimise something which they see as something which they would prefer not to see happen.

Imagine the delight if they DID put it as an option. All of a sudden they'd all feel validated and "supported" by frontier. Look, we're out exploring Frontier's new supported gameplay style of sitting in the starter systems blowing up sidewinders.

I totally get where you're coming from. I don't pirate myself, but I hate that piracy has been muddied so much by the "PvP Enthusiasts" to the point where you're facing combat loggers and other overreactions because they think instead of just dropping off some cargo they think you're going to just blow them up without a word.

I am quite looking forward to seeing what that REPORT button is for, and if it will help things. It would be quite nice if they can manage what some games have done in the past and separate instances so that soon "PvP Enthusiasts" are just playing with other "PvP Enthusiasts" and the true Pirates and the get along gang can play together in open without worrying about people who "play as a bad guy but cry like hell if you leave report crimes on"

- - - Updated - - -

mung0 said:
It's bad enough that the npc pirates are so trigger-happy,
Click to expand...

I was happilly surpsised when pirated by an NPC recently that when I dropped cargo they ACTUALLY let me go without any hostility. You have to be pretty damned fast though.

Still I have been "legit" pirated more often by NPCs than players
 
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