Are medium ships going to viable for AX for much longer?

[tolm]

Bear with me … it’s not all doom and gloom and I still love the game … but I am wondering if the days of medium ship AX combat are numbered?

Most medium ships have limited Hardpoints, Optional Internals and - crucially - Utility Slots. An optimum loadout, until very recently, might have consisted of:

• 1x EAX MC for sustained DPS against Scouts
• 3x Mod Plasmas / Mod Shards for Interceptors
• 1x Xeno Scanner
• 1x Shutdown Field Neutralizer
• 1x Caustic Sink Launch
• 1x Heat Sink Launcher

And that’s already pushing it on the Utilities … some might prefer 2x Heat Sinks (or more!) in case multiple Interceptors turn up in which case you either have to drop the lovely new Caustic Sinks … or the Scanner, and just eyeball all your shots.

So far, so … reasonable compromise? Perhaps …

But I’m seeing on Galnet that the new “Glaive” Thargoid variant disables Guardian Weapons? Lore aside, that’s a [word not allowed] move on FDevs part … we’ve collectively spent “years” grinding for the best AX weapons because of the [questionable, IMO] “normal weapons won’t work” design choice and now the best weapons won’t work against [at least some of] them, either?!

So … that means to be “ready for anything” an AX ship now needs more EAX MCs (or missiles) but will still need to pack Guardian weapons for Interceptor encounters … which leaves very few medium ships able to carry all that plus the additional compromise of having to drop an HRP for a weapon stabiliser.

Until, of course, the next MacGuffin is released which will counter whatever Glaive thingamy is switching off our Guardian tech ... which will involve dropping more HRPs if it’s an Internal or, if it’s a Utility will essentially remove all medium ships from viable [all round] AX use.

I remain intrigued to see where this whole “war” thing is going but I‘m starting to feel that this continual moving of the meta is starting to grate a little - and is in danger of restricting the diversity of ship choice.

What do others think? Am I worrying about nothing?

o7 CMDRs!

 

[Pville_Piper]

I was thinking about this while in the ax restore thread...

It used to be you could have your cake and eat it... You could have a ship the mines, pve combat and handles transport missions as well. It was a stretch, but not by that much.

Now, even Stretch Armstrong can't fill that gap. Utilities have always been a weak spot with small ships, now mediums are getting overwhelmed.

It just feels like no one is looking at the big picture here.

 

[GroG79]

You are trying to build a 'can do all ax' ship

Wrong game. If you want to take basi/medusa etc. The mediums are still great. You dont need caustic sinks or 6 guardian weapons.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

You are trying to build a 'can do all ax' ship

Wrong game. If you want to take basi/medusa etc. The mediums are still great. You dont need caustic sinks or 6 guardian weapons.

You need six guardian weapons when you goal is gibbing them as fast as possible. Which, personally, I hate with a passion. Ruins an instance for everyone not in a ShardConda.

 

[avow555]

The devs are milking the crap out of this with minimum effort on their part.
Had the stream today and it was the much lauded sound team on AGAIN!
Didn't have anyone making new ships or unique items because they aren't making new.

Elite is my favourite all time game and right they are making a mockery of what should be the No1 space game!

 

[Jimmy Joe]

Valid points OP

 

[tolm]

You are trying to build a 'can do all ax' ship

Wrong game. If you want to take basi/medusa etc. The mediums are still great. You dont need caustic sinks or 6 guardian weapons.

Not “all” per se, primarily I’m focusing on the AX CZs.

I fly an AX FAS with what I essentially described on the original post so there’s no crazy number of Guardian weapons here! I’ve dropped the Xeno Scanner in order to get more Heat Sinks but, TBH, I still have to dock to re-arm those more than I would like: at least, that was the case and hopefully will be again now that the Uber Scouts have been taken down a notch!

But now we have Glaives running about disabling Guardian weapons … and my FAS simply doesn’t have enough hardpoints to be capable of equipping more non-Guardian weapons to allow for that without dropping viability against the Interceptors … which would be fine if this was still a “go out and find them and take them on one at a time” situation where specific builds could be used but we’re dealing with waves of these things in the CZs now so a degree of “all round AX capability” is needed.

So, I feel the medium ships are being pushed out … I may have to dig out the ol’ Cutter again simply to have enough diversity of Weapons and equipment to deal with the different enemy types, which I think is a shame because I much prefer flying my FAS!

 

[Elpapo]

Bear with me … it’s not all doom and gloom and I still love the game … but I am wondering if the days of medium ship AX combat are numbered?

Not quite in my eyes. Not even close.

Most medium ships have limited Hardpoints, Optional Internals and - crucially - Utility Slots. An optimum loadout, until very recently, might have consisted of:

• 1x EAX MC for sustained DPS against Scouts
• 3x Mod Plasmas / Mod Shards for Interceptors
• 1x Xeno Scanner
• 1x Shutdown Field Neutralizer
• 1x Caustic Sink Launch
• 1x Heat Sink Launcher

Caustic sink is only needed for entering maelstroms, aside of that, IMO its not really worth taking over normal heat sink for any AX content outside of maelstorms. Plasma charger or shard bulids can very easly burn off any caustic, just raise heat to 250% and any caustic will be burned off, and if done correctly very litte internal dmg is done. I would also not use any other weapon than guardian ones, if not meant going into maelstroms...

And that’s already pushing it on the Utilities … some might prefer 2x Heat Sinks (or more!) in case multiple Interceptors turn up in which case you either have to drop the lovely new Caustic Sinks … or the Scanner, and just eyeball all your shots.

So far, so … reasonable compromise? Perhaps …

Just drop caustic sink, its not that much of "must have" module that you seems to belive. I can see how are these convenient to have around, but since we aint had it until very recently, and any decent AX cmdr should be able to live without one...

But I’m seeing on Galnet that the new “Glaive” Thargoid variant disables Guardian Weapons? Lore aside, that’s a [word not allowed] move on FDevs part … we’ve collectively spent “years” grinding for the best AX weapons because of the [questionable, IMO] “normal weapons won’t work” design choice and now the best weapons won’t work against [at least some of] them, either?!

Its not like they disable guardian modules right away, in fact, thier fields seems kind of weaker than these of orthus/maelstroms fields.

Outside of maelstorms scenarios, these hunters dont are much of a problem for any bulid that have plasma chargers or shards in thier loadouts. I could take on 3 hunters at once during AX settlement defence and lost only about 30-40% of my guardian modules intergrity (for like 1,5 - 2 mins of combat), and I killed them quite quickly with my 5x plasma charger krait. You just need kill them quickly, thats all to it.

So … that means to be “ready for anything” an AX ship now needs more EAX MCs (or missiles) but will still need to pack Guardian weapons for Interceptor encounters … which leaves very few medium ships able to carry all that plus the additional compromise of having to drop an HRP for a weapon stabiliser.

There is no anymore "ready for anything" bulid for AX in anything smaller than large, you need specialized bulids and these can vary a lot dependin on purpose.

Until, of course, the next MacGuffin is released which will counter whatever Glaive thingamy is switching off our Guardian tech ... which will involve dropping more HRPs if it’s an Internal or, if it’s a Utility will essentially remove all medium ships from viable [all round] AX use.

If a module would be relased that blocks thargoids from damagin our guardian modules, wich could also work in maelstroms, I think it would be fair price to give up another internal, since our modified guardian weapons make short work of anything that is not medusa or hydra, and certainly it would be welcomed for maelstorms tasks, no matter of what trade-off would be needed.

I remain intrigued to see where this whole “war” thing is going but I‘m starting to feel that this continual moving of the meta is starting to grate a little - and is in danger of restricting the diversity of ship choice.

Its actually other way around, these additions forces to make more diversity in bulids, well as ship choices for diffrent tasks. Compared to 2-3 years ago, we have use a quite lot more variants and bulids for diffrent tasks related to AX, and I dont see it as bad thing. Still, there is place for mediums and even some small ships in that regard.

What do others think? Am I worrying about nothing?

I think you did. I belive that your problem is that you simply wants have "all-rounder" AX ship of medium class wich can do all. You can bulid one, but its only possible to large ships, as these are only ones wich have enough internal and external module capacity for your needs.

 

[tolm]

Not quite in my eyes. Not even close.


Caustic sink is only needed for entering maelstroms, aside of that, IMO its not really worth taking over normal heat sink for any AX content outside of maelstorms. Plasma charger or shard bulids can very easly burn off any caustic, just raise heat to 250% and any caustic will be burned off, and if done correctly very litte internal dmg is done. I would also not use any other weapon than guardian ones, if not meant going into maelstroms...


Just drop caustic sink, its not that much of "must have" module that you seems to belive. I can see how are these convenient to have around, but since we aint had it until very recently, and any decent AX cmdr should be able to live without one...


Its not like they disable guardian modules right away, in fact, thier fields seems kind of weaker than these of orthus/maelstroms fields.

Outside of maelstorms scenarios, these hunters dont are much of a problem for any bulid that have plasma chargers or shards in thier loadouts. I could take on 3 hunters at once during AX settlement defence and lost only about 30-40% of my guardian modules intergrity (for like 1,5 - 2 mins of combat), and I killed them quite quickly with my 5x plasma charger krait. You just need kill them quickly, thats all to it.


There is no anymore "ready for anything" bulid for AX in anything smaller than large, you need specialized bulids and these can vary a lot dependin on purpose.


If a module would be relased that blocks thargoids from damagin our guardian modules, wich could also work in maelstroms, I think it would be fair price to give up another internal, since our modified guardian weapons make short work of anything that is not medusa or hydra, and certainly it would be welcomed for maelstorms tasks, no matter of what trade-off would be needed.


Its actually other way around, these additions forces to make more diversity in bulids, well as ship choices for diffrent tasks. Compared to 2-3 years ago, we have use a quite lot more variants and bulids for diffrent tasks related to AX, and I dont see it as bad thing. Still, there is place for mediums and even some small ships in that regard.


I think you did. I belive that your problem is that you simply wants have "all-rounder" AX ship of medium class wich can do all. You can bulid one, but its only possible to large ships, as these are only ones wich have enough internal and external module capacity for your needs.

I need to try out some more CZs post 15.1 but, for me, caustic missiles / clouds were often the main cause of damage pre-15: hence the desire to use the Sinks.

I was already struggling with Heat Sink ammo capacity before that: even at one sink-per-heart, you need an entire heat sinks reserves for each Cyclops … and there are many, many Cyclopsi in a CZ … never mind also needing to use them to drop heat after burning off caustic!

But you’re right, my “problem” as you phrased it - wanting to build an all-rounder medium AX ship - is bang on: that‘s exactly what I want to do! But - as you quite rightly pointed out - that’s really not possible any more due to the number of different weapons, modules and utility slots needed. Which was the entire point of my post …

Perhaps I should view this as an “opportunity” … a wing of ships, each tuned for optimal handling of different targets, could work well: a couple with EAX MCs only for Scouts / Glaives whilst still being able to damage Interceptor shields and, to some degree, hearts (if scanned) alongside a pair with mainly Mod Shards as dedicated Interceptor killers could work very well.

Of course, that would involve having friends …

 

[metatheurgist]

The normal weapons don't work is pretty much what put me off AX combat.

 

[Codger]

Well, I certainly agree that it’s getting far too complex and requires too much faffing about to be any actual fun. I’ve simply lost interest because of it.

 

[Chaparral]

The whole "degrade the guardian module" mechanic has truly eroded my interest in the game. AX CZs kept my interest up, but if Glaives show up there well, I'll go play other things.

I equate the "degrade the guardian module" to the latest beer marketing kurfuffles in the US.

Tell me exactly why you want to alienate your player base FDEV...

 

[St0rmFury]

This anti-guardian field is also making it hard for me to decide if I want to equip a large GMRP with smaller MRPs or a small GRMP with larger MRPs.

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

This anti-guardian field is also making it hard for me to decide if I want to equip a large GMRP with smaller MRPs or a small GRMP with larger MRPs.

Skip it completely and use regular module reinforcements.
Guardian MRPs are overrated; they give a very minor increase in integrity for significant power draw.

 

[St0rmFury]

Skip it completely and use regular module reinforcements.
Guardian MRPs are overrated; they give a very minor increase in integrity for significant power draw.

Doesn't it grant immunity or resistance towards the lighting attack too? But tbh I'm not sure if it actually works or not. I'm just going with the AXI meta.

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

The description might say that it protects against module reboots but it doesn't, they're just as likely to happen with GMRPs fitted than without.

 

[Aleks Zuno]

Doesn't it grant immunity or resistance towards the lighting attack too? But tbh I'm not sure if it actually works or not. I'm just going with the AXI meta.

It claims so, but still I see module reboots aplenty; I think the COVAS attempts to comment about some of them, though the large "Atmosphere restored" information panel message really betrays the problem.

Just drop caustic sink, its not that much of "must have" module that you seems to belive. I can see how are these convenient to have around, but since we aint had it until very recently, and any decent AX cmdr should be able to live without one...

We have also not had scenarios such as planetary port defence until relatively recently, where caustic clouds accumulate all over the place and are not or barely visible against the scenery. I kept telling myself I could just burn it away, but ultimately it was taking enough time and costing enough heat sinks that it was as well just to install a caustic sink. At that point, it is also very welcome not having to partake in the chore of avoiding those caustic missiles which most medium vessels can prevent entirely if solo, but not so much in a Conflict Zone.

Speaking of caustic missiles, I have noticed that the Glaive seems to be designed very much around having a caustic sink; it is true that one could burn away its four-missile volley, but it did not escape my attention that its wreckage contains a lot of the materials needed to synthesise caustic sinks! One has to set aside the impracticality of waiting for the cloud to disperse then collecting those materials in a Conflict Zone—the point is that it signals a particular design intention.

 

[Pville_Piper]

I belive that your problem is that you simply wants have "all-rounder" AX ship of medium class wich can do all. You can bulid one, but its only possible to large ships, as these are only ones wich have enough internal and external module capacity for your needs.

The problem with this is 2 fold:

1. The combat AX CZs demand a either an all-rounder to handle the various types of goids, or you have to have co-operation and pre-planning by multiple commanders. The inability to have a medium all-rounder means the solo commander can't effectively play by themselves, which is their preferred manner, if they don't want to play a large ship. And that is something that many of us are not happy with. I personally hate the big lumbering ships and refuse to do any combat in them. And many other, who are completely shut out, would prefer small ships.

2. Since a medium ship all-rounder has been made near impossible, lets look at commanders co-operating... Were, in game, can I find these other commanders and the listing for the required ship types needed for a particular AX CZ? Oh, that's right... There is none. Again, FDev has completely relied on the community to provide what they fail to do. The non-existent in game tools for meeting up are yet again another failed item needed to properly address the war.

I've had some fun flying in groups, but my play time is sporadic due to my job and other considerations and this game, until now, has never forced a play style on me and I believe it's a significant change if it does. SO with that said, I won't be doing AX combat and since I've largely finished my foot based engineering, I won't be doing either type of AX restore missions either. So the war is largely irrelevant to me.

 

[Wisho]

Same feeling here : the do-it-all is fading in favor of a variety of custom builds specifically for each AX task.
Not a bad thing in itself, but people without a fleet carrier (as I am) may have a hard time spotting convenient shipyards and transfering between them a truckload of modules and/or grind a lot and build an entire fleet of dedicated ships.
Big ships' biggest drawback is and will remain the same : they're so slow they can't evade damage and they can only tank it for a certain time. So they can do-it-all, but not for long.
Some parts of the game which gather several tasks in the same place will just become unplayable solo. Director's choice.
And agreed, FD totally fails to bring the basic in-game group-searching tools - although these will become necessary to non-hardcore players if roles become a real thing.


About the utility slots thing, I don't think we are coming really short of them yet, before U15 I could solo AXCZs (except Hydras) with none if I really needed it. Would be painful, but would do.
The caustic sink and SDFN are a real comfort but we've all lived without them.
The Xeno scanner is cool to identify and keep track of the interceptor's comes-and-goes while looking away, but here again, nothing mandatory, hearts can be aimed visually.
Heatsinks : be(am) creative and they're not so meta anymore.
My current most-used build is a 3-shard (or 2-shard+flak), 3-beams Chieftain, subtly alternating each with a little pause to let WEP refill lets me stay <20% cool unless I decide it's hammer time. I often go to reload with 3 or 4 heatsinks left in store.
Didn't try but pretty sure the same way works fine with plasmas and MCs, and even maybe with gauss. I tried things like putting beams and AX on the same fire trigger, brains melt but it also works.
Scouts and Clops were cupcakes, Basis were fine with a bit of attention and a lot of boost and ammo, only a Medusa took longer, reloads and repairs mainly because it required permanent heatsink-DPS-boost (which means damage) to counter its heavy regen.


About grabbing materials : medium-gravity (like 0.5G) planets are your friend. Mats "fall" but clouds don't : when the goid blows, by the time you position yourself a mile or two "under" the cloud, the leftovers will be falling out of the cloud, in range of collector limpets and with enough lifetime to be picked up.
Note : I don't have the patience to do this as there is literally nothing to do with these mats...

 

[rootsrat]

You are trying to build a 'can do all ax' ship

Wrong game. If you want to take basi/medusa etc. The mediums are still great. You dont need caustic sinks or 6 guardian weapons.

What would be extremely useful is the outfitting templates, so I don't need to spend 30 minutes in the hangar every time I decide to do something else in the game.

I don't mind specialisation at all, but swapping the modules one by one is ridiculous at this stage, especially with all the mandatory animations etc.

I'd give up for sure if not for the Coriolis website to save all the builds.