Are PvP and PvE mutually exclusive in game design? Thoughts on the 2.1 update...

[Aewarin Jameson]

Now I see why Open/Solo was brought into this From my point of view they are just methods to chose who and how many you are playing with. The game is exactly the same in both modes, so all PvP balancing efforts affect PvE'ers, even in Solo, and all PvE progression ladders and grind rewards affect PvP players in Open.

Not quite - you're missing a crucial piece to the puzzle IMO.

All modes are indeed just a social filter to determine who exists in your universe and regardless of what you choose the PvE aspect is the same.

However, the ship builds are completely different and don't gel together.

Pure PvP-Combat builds are offensive and built for damage. Pure PvE builds can be built for damage but don't typically use the same loadout which tends to be at a disadvantage against PCs. Fix that and they tend to be bad against AI. Fix that and they tend to be bad against players. Endless roundabout !

The halfway house I mentioned above fits the piracy / BH roles - they are interested in combat against players (and should be against AI as well). However the current implementation of piracy in ED is very lacking and somewhat neglected.

If FD:
- Severely altered C&P and implemented very heavy sanctions against outright murderers
- Implemented better reasons to be a pirate (like a rating) to encourage non-killing of players / AI
- Gave the PvE players who are targeted by pirates (NPC/PC) some love when being pirated. (Right to retaliation // player bounties // better insurance model // etc)
- Forced wanted criminals into open
- Gave BHs better tracking tools

This could help the blend .. but I don't know if any of the above is on FDs radar.


EDIT:
What ED should be like in terms of "pecking order" is: BH (PvPvE) > Pirates (PvPvE) > PvE players
However with there being no incentive to avoid murder, and pirates lacking tools, it ends up being: BH | Murderers >> PvE players

 

[Robert Maynard]

The halfway house I mentioned above fits the piracy / BH roles - they are interested in combat against players (and should be against AI as well). However the current implementation of piracy in ED is very lacking and somewhat neglected.

It's only a halfway house if the pirate operates alone. In a Wing, there could be three pure combat ships and one transport for the booty.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

It's only a halfway house if the pirate operates alone. In a Wing, there could be three pure combat ships and one transport for the booty.

Then that would beg the next question : Not only does FD have to work out what kind of game ED is PvP // PvE // Blend [which typically as I said isn't done well] but should they also balance it for solo players or wings ?

Balance the game for wings and it hurts the solo players
Balance the game for solo players and wings dominate

<shrug> Not easy ...

 

[Robert Maynard]

Then that would beg the next question : Not only does FD have to work out what kind of game ED is PvP // PvE // Blend [which typically as I said isn't done well] but should they also balance it for solo players or wings ?

Balance the game for wings and it hurts the solo players
Balance the game for solo players and wings dominate

<shrug> Not easy ...

Not possible, it would seem - as both types of balance favour Wings (either directly or indirectly).

 

[Adept]

I would agree with this, but as it stands Elite does not really present many skill based challenges. Once you learn the basics you are pretty much good to go, there is nothing very difficult here. That means that instead of player progression being based on skill, you need to base it on "levels", which in the case of Elite is represented by the ships. Except that currently the ships are so close to each other in their capabilities that the differences are almost meaningless.

People keep saying that "you can do anything in Elite in a Cobra". This would be a good thing, if the things you do weren't so easy...

You can't do PvP in a Cobra. If anything the trusty Cobra mk III is rather underpowered. It's mostly hindered by it's lackluster power distributor and having only two utility points.

I disagree on the low skill part as well. While I would prefer the edge on high skill weapons to be higher (fixed vs. gimbaled, high skill weapons like plasma accelerators) your stick/mouse skills are definitely very important in the game. Sadly the ship levels effect things even more.

 

[Viking84]

You can't do PvP in a Cobra. If anything the trusty Cobra mk III is rather underpowered. It's mostly hindered by it's lackluster power distributor and having only two utility points.

I disagree on the low skill part as well. While I would prefer the edge on high skill weapons to be higher (fixed vs. gimbaled, high skill weapons like plasma accelerators) your stick/mouse skills are definitely very important in the game. Sadly the ship levels effect things even more.

I should have been precise, I meant the lack of skills required for PvE play PvP will always require skill as you are competing against a fellow human being, and assuming you have chosen two fairly evenly matched ships/loadouts then the rest will be down to skill. None of that matters for the PvE'er though, they are only competing with themselves and the game/NPCs.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Or make NPCs more like human players and solve both problems at once...?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Or make NPCs more like human players and solve both problems at once...?

It may solve the problem of the game being too crowded....

 

[cluelessforumuser65578]

without pve there would be nobody to pirate or gank in a belt, no cg to blockade and how would you get your nice shiny cutter or vette without pve to get the rank and creds to outfit? the better the pve experience the better the potential pvp experience, otherwise we might as well just be playing a lobby shooter and look how that turned out

 

[the100thmonkey]

You make the mistake of defining pvp as space combat against another player, you're not alone most do.

You ignore the fact that CG and power play are types of pvp too, your efforts are compared with and opposed to those of other players, regardless of your actually fighting them or not. So while you imagine there is no need for balance in “pve”, there most certainly is.

Roybe calls such activities "collecting PvE trophies." And he's right. If you want to take on and actually defeat another player group, you don't do it by hanging out around "their" station and trying to shoot them; you do it by playing the BGS better than them.

In terms of PvP, Powerplay is at best a method of focussing opportunities for it and an excuse to do it. Nothing more. I wouldn't call those activities "PvP" - if pushed, I'd label them competitive PvE, for that's what they are. For instance, in Powerplay, killing an enemy CMDR only has the effect of losing that one CMDR their merits. It has no positive influence on the killer's Powerplay efforts. This basically makes it a waste of time to engage in Powerplay PvP as you'd have more of an effect collecting merits, i.e. doing PvE.

In other words, this is a PvE game with the potential for PvP if (and only if) you want it. Many players don't seem to want to be shot at by other players. Ho hum.

With regard to balancing for PvP, I don't think the main thrust of development has gone in that direction. It has valorised co-op play over competitive every time; PvP players have been able to use the co-op mechanics to elaborate their gameplay, but I wouldn't hold for a moment that the decisions made have been based on their desires.

 

[Vorxian]

Morning all, and a beautiful Monday morning it is indeed here in the sunny county of Kent... Especially with a 4-shot cappuccino on my desk

Cudos for this thread actually being a thoroughly interesting read. Well done OP a good topic.

I'm sort of getting a picture in my head, and folks are welcome to correct me if wrong.... It would seem that due to lack of actual PvP traffic in the PvP mode, it feels a lot like the 'better' AI is a mechanism to fill the gap between dumb AI punch bags, and worthy 'training' grounds to keep those shooter skills honed (in a non arena environment) - (Arena is way too serious, and folks do take it very seriously - so whilst good at training skills, probably too serious an event to tinker in, with the additional handicap of not having access to different in game hardware). [assumptions of mine, I hold my hand up if players disagree]

I'd still really strongly feel support to a proper single OPEN mode, that can cater for everyone. I don't want to derail the OP, but it's kind of relevant. Mentioned before is a PvP OFF flag... so if you're in your PvE ship, you turn off the PvP in the functions menu, and your player tag just turns into a solid box on the radar, you effectively appear as an NPC. Player characters can't interdict you, and the PvP off flag just renders other player damage as null. Collisions, weapons just do zero damage. PvPers would just ignore you as griefing just wouldn't occur. You might shenanigans around stations, but, that level of player interaction is fair enough, bit like congestion at traffic lights irl.

I'd be sad if ED lost it's PvP option though, and i'm also quite happy there being badass NPC's to fight.. mostly named antagonists, it would be nice if the rewards scale greatly with opposition challenge. I think a hell of a lot more PvEers would get into more combat missions if so, and, a result of PvErs getting exposure to combat missions, should in theory up their confidence in combat, as as confidence grows, the number of people wanting to try PvP combat should (technically) increase as well. Hopefully, giving the PvP hungry players others to share time and fun with. Hell I'm a PvE pansy, but if everyone was in one mode, I would most likely try new turf once in a while. I just like my solo too much atm. It does feel like I'm always trying something new to 'level up my cutter' or 'hammer and nails' my old faithful ASP

Sorry for the TLDR group.. coffee kicks in and I just waffle like a madman.

[heart]

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Think balancing PvP meta is singularly the most destructive thing to benign PvE play though.
.

indeed.... as long as some players are able to spec a ship in such a way that it is only good for PvP and rubbish at everything else, but for that 1 thing, PvP, it is fantastic, then this will for ever be a problem when trying to play in the same instance as those who are specced for actually doing the core stuff in the game beyond just "interacting" with hollow boxes......

Personally I am past caring on the PvP meta now.... I so rarely go into open anymore that even if it was locked off from me I probably would not lose much sleep...... BUT the PvE game must never be balanced against the hard core (and admittedly skilled for what they do, I am not knocking their talent) PvP players and their crazy builds.

its been a long time since Open was my preferred mode and I honestly do not feel I have lost out.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Well, I wouldn't mind the currently drastically incompatible PvE vs. PvP Meta to find together again at some point.

I've always liked the "early days" where PvE basically was the proving grounds and base-level training to acquire the basic PvP skills - mainly with human behaviour and tactics being the key factor in the mix.
Those days were over for a long time now, although some of the NPCs I've seen in the 2.1betas are getting closer now.

Forging both together again will likely take some work, though. I forsee no easy or painless way to get there from where we are now.
Still, it seems we're about to make a small but notable move into that direction.

 

[Derath]

Forging both together is as simple as removing modules that you can stack for PvP gain, HRP's give a fundamental opportunity loss for every module slot you don't use for one and currently (2.0) that gives you a monumental EHP advantage over your opponent, they still have a variety of ways to win but it is considerably higher in much the same that a loadout entirely specialized for endurance (all pulses) suffers against one that is meant for low figure engagements (all rails).

Prior to HRP PvP builds were just regular ships with extra SCB's onboard, but SCB's can be defeated by skillful play/weapon loadout whereas HRP's you just have to suffer through while attempting to disable a module. An unmodified FDL dies in 4 shots from a large pacifier if you get it square on, do you really think anyone would have used SR + All rails if that was the case? Its much easier to swing when it takes 30 shots

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Nope. PvE and PvP coexist just fine in games.

The problem is the player population who don't know how to handle it. I've played plenty of games in the past where the PvP and PvE communities balanced nicely and fed off of each other to make a great game.

To be frank, ED is full of a bunch of selfish, entitled pantywaisters who think that the rest of humanity is there to make their gaming experience more convenient as opposed to playing the game for themselves, and that's the core of every PvE/PvP issue in the game.

Time to grow up, kids. If I could play online Open PvP games in 1995 with a bunch of pre-teens who knew how to balance a community, ED's mature audiences shouldn't have any issue.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I've played plenty of games in the past where the PvP and PvE communities balanced nicely and fed off of each other to make a great game.

Do you have an example? I cant think of any which co-existed (happily) but can think of some where PvE players got treated as 2nd class citizens.

I disagree completely with FalconFly that PvE should be the practice mode which leads to the PvP mode when you are "better" imo this view underlines the whole crux of the problem that PvE should NOT be where you go when not very good.... some people no matter how good they are will always shy away from a mode where PvP is possible, and other players who will openly admit are rubbish will be more than happy to go into a PvP warzone.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Nope. PvE and PvP coexist just fine in games.

The problem is the player population who don't know how to handle it. I've played plenty of games in the past where the PvP and PvE communities balanced nicely and fed off of each other to make a great game.

To be frank, ED is full of a bunch of selfish, entitled pantywaisters who think that the rest of humanity is there to make their gaming experience more convenient as opposed to playing the game for themselves, and that's the core of every PvE/PvP issue in the game.

Time to grow up, kids. If I could play online Open PvP games in 1995 with a bunch of pre-teens who knew how to balance a community, ED's mature audiences shouldn't have any issue.

.... but there's no "right way" to play the game (and DBOBE has said so, so there!)

.... and we've all been told to "play the game how you want to", not "play the game how others want you to".

More seriously, if one subset of the player-base does not have "fun" when playing among the other - they can choose not to play among them (as opposed to just not playing at all).

 

[Para Handy]

It would be great to have a Open Play environment where everyone operated "in mode" as in assuming an immersion in the "Elite Universe". Unfortunately we have idiots who get "lols" from finding ways to have multi-million credit ships blown up at the cost to them of a piddling sidewinder or wings of highly equipped ships just pouncing and destroying anything on their scanners that is a hollow icon and bored kiddies touring the starter systems looking for fresh sidewinders to provide another "virtual notch" on their joystick. There is no downside for these activities, they don't get branded a murderer and hunted down like dogs, they don't get labelled as a griefer or gankers because the rule-obeying majority abide by the no naming-and-shaming philosophy.

That's why people avoid Open. If Open is empty it is because of the actions of people in open, not because of any other reason whatsoever. If you want to solve any PvP vs PvE dichotomy, sort those issues - you can't, so just accept that there are two camps and live with it.

 

[NeilF]

The only problem I see is that I typically equip my craft for PvE, which invariably means as and when I get attacked by another CMDR (set up for PvP), I'm typically on the back foot setup wise, and most likely will have to run...

How much nicer would it be if the game balance/design meant instead, an interesting combat situation could end up with an interesting fight, instead of, "Hah! Paper beats stone, off you go then!"

The moment the design team chose to have fixed and gimbals, this problem started to grow, and with every new module type and now crafting side effects, it continues, "Hah! Spock beats lizard, off you go then!"

I've sort of given up ever expecting anything but this from ED, and can't see a way back now. So although it's not what I'd hoped for, I'm sort of beyond caring now TBH

 

[Viking84]

Nope. PvE and PvP coexist just fine in games.

The problem is the player population who don't know how to handle it. I've played plenty of games in the past where the PvP and PvE communities balanced nicely and fed off of each other to make a great game.

To be frank, ED is full of a bunch of selfish, entitled pantywaisters who think that the rest of humanity is there to make their gaming experience more convenient as opposed to playing the game for themselves, and that's the core of every PvE/PvP issue in the game.

Time to grow up, kids. If I could play online Open PvP games in 1995 with a bunch of pre-teens who knew how to balance a community, ED's mature audiences shouldn't have any issue.

I think you may have misunderstood the point I was trying to make. I am not talking about PvP'ers and PvE'ers getting along, I am talking about the game design needed to enable competitive PvP being in direct opposition to what makes for interesting PvE game play.

Elite at the moment is trying to please both, but I firmly believe this results in a sub par game that could have been better if they focused on one or the other. My personal opinion is that PvP in Elite will never be competitive or balanced due to the sheer number of different loadouts and ships available, and that FDev should instead focus on making the game as optimal as possible for the PvE'ers, while keeping PvP as an interesting side show that can occasionally occur.