ARGH!! Why is building so frustrating?? Missing controls, bugs...

[Curlyriff]

I think the reason they affect me so is that I use really powerfull 3D design and rendering tools all day for work. I can see the flaws in the system.

I am looking past what you are calling detail and looking at what TS4 can produce with the tools, the shape of the buildings, the fluid design ability, the manipulation. The reason the buildings in TS4 don't reach the same visual stunning that you are seeing though are not because of the building tools, not because they would not benefit PC tenfold in producing but purely that PC has significantly better textures, lighting and the detail of building assets for what PC requires.

Try and outfit an internal like TS4 allows and it swings the other way. The assets that are in PC are amazing and look so good but I have spent 5 hours building something and going, this could literally take 45 mins to complete if the tools worked like X, Y & Z.

Just taking the wall and roof construction with the dynamic building tool and imagine being able to drag and manipulate your walls in seconds on PC having the windows auto-snap to centre of walls and then be able to adjust the windows as a group with advance move where it would dynamically cut the wall to suit the window/doorway.

That's what the tools in TS4 allow. Take that station you have spent 4 hours on. I believe that the design tools here would actually have maybe halved the time. The way arches are done in PC for instance is also a pain. Having arches that suit the station and being able to drag them to any position along the wall so they line up properly without large gaps etc.

The detailing in PC would be the same as it is now but it is the core of the building process that is wrong (in my opinion) and that is what TS4 did correct.

 

[seeker7]

That's what the tools in TS4 allow. Take that station you have spent 4 hours on. I believe that the design tools here would actually have maybe halved the time. The way arches are done in PC for instance is also a pain. Having arches that suit the station and being able to drag them to any position along the wall so they line up properly without large gaps etc.

The detailing in PC would be the same as it is now but it is the core of the building process that is wrong (in my opinion) and that is what TS4 did correct.

With the right additions to the build mode, the whole process of building could be much easier and quicker. Because I don't think they will start making a new system from scratch. So I'd be ok with some much needed improvements and additions.

In addition to what I've suggested above it would be helpful to be able to clone parts from existing scenery/ buildings and add them to something else. This way you wouldn't have to worry about finding the item in the catalogue and picking the right color for it.

One annoying thing I'd like to see changed is the highlighting of the selected grid/building /pieces. Painting the whole surface blue makes things hard to see. Just (out)lines would be enough to keep track of what pieces are active right now.
And why am I not able to figure out, how to get a grid down to the ground? Working on my entrance is difficult simply because the underlying grid is in the air, like, 4m above ground and you can't see through the grid. So I'm constantly switching the camera, there must be some way to change this, no? It's things like this why I go back to playing Hitman instead!

 

[BlackShark]

I am also very frustrated by the poor building system in PC.

The current system is clearly designed to ONLY do rectangular building with fixed length chunks.
Try anything else and you're punished by the rigid grid system, the terrible UI that clearly does not want to to build walls at custom angles
(if you want custom angles, then you're making two different buildings : the UI says it itself)
Blocks no longer fitting together if you try to be creative, and you struggle to hide the clipping as much as you can with foliage and furniture.
etc...
But even if you stick scrupulously to rectangles, the system still takes a painfully long time to build anything.

I enjoy designing coasters (even though the coaster builder has it's share of issues), but dread finishing it because I know i'll have to design the bloody station, and the queue, and the surrounding buildingss etc....
This system discourages us from building anything custom. It's pretty bad.

I find it sad that Frontier did all the work to free paths and coasters from the old grid system and fail so miserably with buildings.
I thing Frontier should ditch the entire current building system and start from scratch.
No more prefabricated blocks : the game begs for custom free-form walls, floors, roofs, etc...
No more square pegs to fit round holes ! Grids and fixed lengths should be optional, not the norm.

(by the way the game also needs an alignment/grid/curve system that can span across all constructions)
Want to build a straight building along a straight piece of coaster track ? How about a roof over the launch section ? Nope, you can't create a grid from piece of track.
Want to build a circular plaza ? In your dreams.
And surrounded by round buildings ? Good luck with the 4meter slabs.

 

[Craigio]

Yep I find this, it's why I keep comparing how good Sims 4 was for it's build mode.

This link explains why it worked so well

http://www.carls-sims-4-guide.com/tutorials/building/houses.php

The more I play PC, the more I wish for a Sims style building mode. Either drag generic walls, or put a building together using generic blocks and pieces, then apply textures. It's just so frustrating finding individual pieces from the multiple sets on offer.

With the Coaster builder, I invested the time to get used to it and learn how to make best use of the tools - and I now like it. But when it comes to buildings, I just haven't got the patience.

 

[pwc1]

The Sims does have a better system of building. In fact, I believe back in the development days, Angelis suggested the Sims method.
Also, camera controls are still wonky. Zooms in & out too much. Same with going up & down isn't quite right.

 

[FuddyWoodie]

I think the reason they affect me so is that I use really powerfull 3D design and rendering tools all day for work. I can see the flaws in the system.

I am looking past what you are calling detail and looking at what TS4 can produce with the tools, the shape of the buildings, the fluid design ability, the manipulation. The reason the buildings in TS4 don't reach the same visual stunning that you are seeing though are not because of the building tools, not because they would not benefit PC tenfold in producing but purely that PC has significantly better textures, lighting and the detail of building assets for what PC requires.

Try and outfit an internal like TS4 allows and it swings the other way. The assets that are in PC are amazing and look so good but I have spent 5 hours building something and going, this could literally take 45 mins to complete if the tools worked like X, Y & Z.

Just taking the wall and roof construction with the dynamic building tool and imagine being able to drag and manipulate your walls in seconds on PC having the windows auto-snap to centre of walls and then be able to adjust the windows as a group with advance move where it would dynamically cut the wall to suit the window/doorway.

That's what the tools in TS4 allow. Take that station you have spent 4 hours on. I believe that the design tools here would actually have maybe halved the time. The way arches are done in PC for instance is also a pain. Having arches that suit the station and being able to drag them to any position along the wall so they line up properly without large gaps etc.

The detailing in PC would be the same as it is now but it is the core of the building process that is wrong (in my opinion) and that is what TS4 did correct.

Posted this on the 4th of June. It was quite obvious to me that the tools as they stood were never going to be enduring and sadly nothing much has changed.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I found the current system of building particularly difficult. But I do think it could reach a wider audience by being more accessible. You may be a lot more talented, or resourceful or even more patient than many, and that's to your credit; but the time spent building such elaborate structures does take us away from what I'd consider is actually the point of the game. Enjoying and managing a theme park.

To give you an example of what I'd consider more accessible, here is a build in the aforementioned Sims 4...

[video=youtube;YeiUt6zWO90]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeiUt6zWO90[/video]

Now.....Please don't assume this is a solution nor am I advocating a complete overhaul, but this type of structuring could complement what we already have. This, for me, is just an example of how much easier the building side of PC could be....

It has a simple, but beautifully intuitive UI with a level of modularity that is constrained by consistent rules without sacrificing the options available to the player. The key word is consistency.

If we look at PC so far, while brilliant in its freedom it isn't consistent.

-Buildings pieces, in their very basic grid form, are not uniform, if your are not keeping a watchful eye on your placement you could be in for some trouble when dealing with roofs or any sort of symmetry further down the line.

-Building within the "rules" of the grid can cause unnecessary and unsightly 'Z-fighting'. The clashing textures are a nightmare for those with an OCD among us! This would be resolved if a similar approach to the above was adopted.

-Lack of consistent rules regarding the different types of pieces leading to "sticking plaster" fixes. Does it rotate along all axis? Does it place in the expected position?

-Pathing is seemingly arbitrary causing unnecessary time wasting and frustration.

-Pieces within buildings within buildings within buildings......again.......needlessly perplexing.

These are just a few things I can conjure up of the top of my head, but, when you add in becoming proficient at using the terrain tool and coaster builder, as well as actually managing the park; you can surely understand the cumulative effect this will have an all but the most ardent and dedicated of fans.

Again, please take the above with the disclaimer that, yes, I know its an Alpha and yes, I know that they are constantly improving things. I'm just trying to illustrate why I think their is a risk of alienating a lot of potential customers if the current tools are maintained.

As it stands I can't really see me persevering with the game as, like some, I find myself disheartened and deterred by the nature of the tools. Sad really, as I really want to love it.

 

[Curlyriff]

I am glad to see a lot of us feel the same way, I honestly don't think this will ever change with PC now or in the future tbh as it is a fundamental building block they have decided on. However if a PC2 ever happens I do hope we move onto something like this in terms of building tools.

 

[Thokari]

I've been told that the issue with the mutilated walls when intersected, is actually intentional because it prevents flickering.

Spoiler

http://fs5.directupload.net/images/161204/darxjb4p.jpg

It's not a bug, it's a feature? I'm not so sure because I've tested this with other pieces. They didn't de-form and yet there was no clipping/flickering. So maybe another arbitrary thing like which walls and beams can be colored and which can't.

It does prevent Z-fighting with overlapping parts, that is the reason it works this way.
The problem with that decision is that this needs to be specifically designed into every individual piece, which is the reason it mostly works for basic walls only.

 

[seeker7]

With 1m walls you can avoid some problems.

 

[BlackShark]

With 1m walls you can avoid some problems.

But the smaller the pieces, the more time you spend searching for the right size you need in the menus, the more pieces you need to place down, and the time it takes overall to build anything goes up dramatically. (and the less fun the game becomes).
In short : solve one problem, create two new problems.

The only way to solve the missing puzzle piece problem is to not use puzzle pieces to begin with.
Stop trying to fit a square peg into a round hole : it doesn't work.
We want play-doh that we can squish into any shape we want. (We need a different set of tools)

 

[Serpentrax]

Missing pieces and lack of flexi-color on others for no apparant reason aside, the system itself feels worse than wat I can rember from the alphas. In the alpha, the system was kind of smart, it tried to stack the next piece right on top of you current one and with a fluid gesture you could hint the system to start building more pieces on the same floor, quickly after another. I can't explain why exactly, but it felt pretty fluid for what it was. Yes, it feels outdated and roughly unevolved from 2002's RCT2. Yes, it is lame compared to what The Sims and Spore did. But that's another disucssion, it did work for what it was.

In version 1.0+ I'm not having such a good time creating buildings. Quickly plumbing down a simple cube is already a challange because I'm constantly correcting the systems unhelpful misjudgements when it tried to be "smart". Why does the roof piece rotate 90 degrees on its own? Why does my Shift key seem to be stuck and am I suddenly building vertically instead of next to each other? The duplicated piece has been placed on the ground floor, wut? The weird thing is, after a few misplaced wall pieces, it suddenly stops acting up and does place the pieces where I want them, in the orientation I was looking for (namely not rotated at all!). Start a new building and it start getting it all wrong once again. Is it me? What is going on here?

 

[BobTheWobbly]

Missing pieces and lack of flexi-color on others for no apparant reason aside, the system itself feels worse than wat I can rember from the alphas. In the alpha, the system was kind of smart, it tried to stack the next piece right on top of you current one and with a fluid gesture you could hint the system to start building more pieces on the same floor, quickly after another. I can't explain why exactly, but it felt pretty fluid for what it was. Yes, it feels outdated and roughly unevolved from 2002's RCT2. Yes, it is lame compared to what The Sims and Spore did. But that's another disucssion, it did work for what it was.

In version 1.0+ I'm not having such a good time creating buildings. Quickly plumbing down a simple cube is already a challange because I'm constantly correcting the systems unhelpful misjudgements when it tried to be "smart". Why does the roof piece rotate 90 degrees on its own? Why does my Shift key seem to be stuck and am I suddenly building vertically instead of next to each other? The duplicated piece has been placed on the ground floor, wut? The weird thing is, after a few misplaced wall pieces, it suddenly stops acting up and does place the pieces where I want them, in the orientation I was looking for (namely not rotated at all!). Start a new building and it start getting it all wrong once again. Is it me? What is going on here?

I though I was going crazy, but I've noticed this, too. It really sucks the fun out of building custom buildings for me.

 

[seeker7]

Quickly plumbing down a simple cube is already a challange because I'm constantly correcting the systems unhelpful misjudgements when it tried to be "smart". Why does the roof piece rotate 90 degrees on its own? Why does my Shift key seem to be stuck and am I suddenly building vertically instead of next to each other? The duplicated piece has been placed on the ground floor, wut? The weird thing is, after a few misplaced wall pieces, it suddenly stops acting up and does place the pieces where I want them, in the orientation I was looking for (namely not rotated at all!). Start a new building and it start getting it all wrong once again. Is it me? What is going on here?

It's all over the place for me, too. I think I never got to the point where I could see a pattern, the behaviour of the tool seems random to me.

The "use world axis" rotation/place function is messed up, too. PC in fact doesn't use the same axes for every piece. So instead of dragging a piece to the left by simply using x axis oftentimes you gotta use x and z to place it correctly

 

[KickAir8p]

. . . Why does the roof piece rotate 90 degrees on its own? Why does my Shift key seem to be stuck and am I suddenly building vertically instead of next to each other? The duplicated piece has been placed on the ground floor, wut? The weird thing is, after a few misplaced wall pieces, it suddenly stops acting up and does place the pieces where I want them, in the orientation I was looking for (namely not rotated at all!). Start a new building and it start getting it all wrong once again. Is it me? What is going on here?

Ditto'ng all of it, but especially this bit -- in RCT3P you could hover your pointer over a piece that was at the height you wanted and hit (IRCC) the CTRL key and everything would be that height. A decade later and, if we can't do better than that, why can't we do that? [cry]

And a teeny bit off-topic, but the designate-a-building feature would be a lot more helpful if it was easier to keep things from spontaneously insisting they're a new/different building. [rolleyes]

 

[fufusenpai]

Glad I'm not the only one frustrated with the current building system. Everything feels so disjointed and unorganized, making even simple things a pain to build. Having to fudge several different "buildings" together is honestly just... awful and unintuitive.

Don't even get me started on making functional buildings... it's nigh impossible with the pathing system.