The Adder SHOULD be worse (I didn't say "always"). Just not so much worse that the pilot can't make up the difference with skill.
arguement: Python vs Viper equal skill python SHOULD win
- Thread starter Hekantonkheries
- Start date
The Adder SHOULD be worse (I didn't say "always"). Just not so much worse that the pilot can't make up the difference with skill.
LOL i love this engine so much, you see these guys pull so many amazing stunts 10/10 sir and some rep for linking one I hadn't seen!
Can we also agree to pour scorn on the Python pilots who claim Vipers are OP?
There are no such people, at least Ive never seen anyone indicating they hold this view that viper should be a superior combat ship to a python, hence you are basically trolling with a straw man argument TBH.
Last edited:
The big issues and the elephant in the room is return on investment.
A grade viper cost a small fraction of the cost of bigger ships and can be run and insured very cheaply all good and well for getting new players into a combat capable ship that should be unholy terror to face in a similar sized / price bracketed ship like cobra eagle hauler ect.
You can even argue that I should have a chance in packs to take on larger we armed and armoured ships.
What it shouldn’t be is a starter ship you can get yourself into in less than 4 hours from starting that game that can kill anything else in the game.
The saddest part of that would be nothing to aspire to and no sense of achievement and very little risk v reward when you can replace your ship for peanuts.
There needs to be a reason to aspire to a bigger better ship to play for hour after hour to finally achieve a long held goal like taking on a Anaconda in a fight and winning.
And there needs to be fear when you see a ship that severely outclasses you.
Otherwise what’s the point?
As for the best of the heavy’s against the best of the lights the Anaconda pilot should be able to sit there with 4 pips to shield and ignore the viper while he goes and makes himself a nice cup of tea.
A grade viper cost a small fraction of the cost of bigger ships and can be run and insured very cheaply all good and well for getting new players into a combat capable ship that should be unholy terror to face in a similar sized / price bracketed ship like cobra eagle hauler ect.
You can even argue that I should have a chance in packs to take on larger we armed and armoured ships.
What it shouldn’t be is a starter ship you can get yourself into in less than 4 hours from starting that game that can kill anything else in the game.
The saddest part of that would be nothing to aspire to and no sense of achievement and very little risk v reward when you can replace your ship for peanuts.
There needs to be a reason to aspire to a bigger better ship to play for hour after hour to finally achieve a long held goal like taking on a Anaconda in a fight and winning.
And there needs to be fear when you see a ship that severely outclasses you.
Otherwise what’s the point?
As for the best of the heavy’s against the best of the lights the Anaconda pilot should be able to sit there with 4 pips to shield and ignore the viper while he goes and makes himself a nice cup of tea.
Depends on the players and th e loadouts so not entirely sure. I can speak for myself though, and if I was in a python fighting g against myself in a cobra, the python would win, likely taking 10-20% hull damage...I'm pretty good in my cobra, it's my favorite ship. Now two me's in cobras vs one me in a python, python doesn't stand a chance, likely one cobra will die, but wouldn't impossible for both to survive. The cobra I used was valued at 9 mil. The python I fly is values at 85 mil. So the python should be able to handle at least two cobras really 10 should be where the python pilot starts sweating though, I'd even be okay if it wasn't quite so linear, maybe 5 to one should be where the python has a good chance of losing
It's probably also a mindset of 'I Want To Beat The Ship MY Way,' essentially wanting the ships to conform to your tactics, rather than adjusting your tactics to better use each ship. As has been covered, in a battle of equally skilled pilots, the Python pilot will generally, if not inevitably, win, if the pilot is employing effective tactics... however, if the Python pilot is treating his ship like it's a Viper (trying to circle-maneuver at close quarters to bring his weapons to bear, relying on being faster when he simply isn't) then he puts a pretty significant handicap on himself because he isn't getting the best performance out of his ship. That inevitably puts the Viper pilot on significantly more even footing- because they're officially fighting this fight on the Viper's terms, and both relying on the qualities that the Viper has the edge in to decide the outcome- resulting in one irritated Python pilot. =P Cue the 'Oh, Vipers are too good!' speech and attempts to make it so they can win in their bigger ship without actually doing anything to change their tactics.
To put it another way, trying my tactic- the slow reverse and toe-to-toe gunning- in a Viper against an Anaconda or Python would be insane, because you'd be negating your ship's strengths, and trying to focus on using your ship's weakest qualities. (Durability and pure DPS in this case.)
Well you can have a game where everyone runs away from bigger ships, or you can have a game where interesting fights occur between different ships. I know which I'd rather have.
Your obviously completely ignorant of basic weapon and shield mechanics. There is no shield in the game that can indefinitely withstand sustained fire from even a sidewinder so if you want a game where you can just sit there and absorb fire then this isnt it.
Last edited:
Perhaps you should go back and read this thread. You'll see several people say just that.
In fact, here are some quotes:
To which someone else replied:
- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -
Sure. From what I've seen, Vipers aren't over powered at all.
I've yet to play post 1.1 and I've encountered exactly 2 other players but prior to that at least, NPC vipers were pretty easy to beat while NPC Pythons were not (I fly an Asp).
- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -
Or have a game were several smaller ships team up to defeat a large one. We could call this feature "wings" or something like that.
I see a lot of people in here who wish this was WoW where a max level character can have a horde of lower levels pound on them with no effect. Im so glad this is not an mmo like that.
A python is not a fighter. A fighter like the viper is designed to punch above its weight class, the python is designed to punch in its weight class.
A skilled viper pilot by all means should murder a python with an equally skilled pilot. It should be sitting right behind the engines pounding away, matching the python turn for turn.
An unskilled viper pilot though will not be able to take out an equally skilled python pilot. Its tough to sit in that no death zone. They should not stand a chance.
A python is not a fighter. A fighter like the viper is designed to punch above its weight class, the python is designed to punch in its weight class.
A skilled viper pilot by all means should murder a python with an equally skilled pilot. It should be sitting right behind the engines pounding away, matching the python turn for turn.
An unskilled viper pilot though will not be able to take out an equally skilled python pilot. Its tough to sit in that no death zone. They should not stand a chance.
Using ingame pretend money to justify the claim that more "expensive" ships should be superior in PVP and combat is a very weak argument and a mistaken understanding of the games actual currency,
The games currency is time. You can of course use that time and convert it into ingame pretend money, (more efficiently in solo), which you can use to buy a big ship and set it up for combat. Or you can spend your time actually doing combat and gaining combat skills, (more efficiently in open where PVP is available), but your less likely to have the ingame credits to buy the bigger ships.
For people that have traded their way to a large combat equipped ship to claim that they have a right to beat smaller combat ships flown by more skilled and experienced pilots, just by virtue that they have spent their time trading, is frankly ridiculous.
Combat ships should actually be more challenging to combat equipped multipurpose ships than they are at present. The way the game is balanced at the moment, only when there is a wide skill gap between pilots will a Viper have any chance at all against a Python, this is exacerbated by the rebalance of shield cells which favour ships with cargo space and surplus energy over combat ships. In fact I'd go as far as to say SCBs have removed the role of combat from the combat ships and handed it to multi purpose ships.
I think it's a mistake to remove manoeuvrability as a major advantage in dogfighting and replace it with tanking, which is what I'm seeing happen.
(If you still support balance based on pretend money trumps skill, increase the price of the Viper and Eagle and the rewards for bounty hunting to better reflect time and risk. Perceived problem solved.)
The games currency is time. You can of course use that time and convert it into ingame pretend money, (more efficiently in solo), which you can use to buy a big ship and set it up for combat. Or you can spend your time actually doing combat and gaining combat skills, (more efficiently in open where PVP is available), but your less likely to have the ingame credits to buy the bigger ships.
For people that have traded their way to a large combat equipped ship to claim that they have a right to beat smaller combat ships flown by more skilled and experienced pilots, just by virtue that they have spent their time trading, is frankly ridiculous.
Combat ships should actually be more challenging to combat equipped multipurpose ships than they are at present. The way the game is balanced at the moment, only when there is a wide skill gap between pilots will a Viper have any chance at all against a Python, this is exacerbated by the rebalance of shield cells which favour ships with cargo space and surplus energy over combat ships. In fact I'd go as far as to say SCBs have removed the role of combat from the combat ships and handed it to multi purpose ships.
I think it's a mistake to remove manoeuvrability as a major advantage in dogfighting and replace it with tanking, which is what I'm seeing happen.
(If you still support balance based on pretend money trumps skill, increase the price of the Viper and Eagle and the rewards for bounty hunting to better reflect time and risk. Perceived problem solved.)
Last edited:
Multi-purpose should not automatically mean better in combat even when several categories higher.
Python and Anaconda should be threatened by a small fighting ship piloted by a good pilot.
This seems to be FD's stance, currently. I like this. I don't like your ideas. I don't like how you think they are somehow more ''right'', but that doesn't matter.
Yeeeeah, as an Anaconda pilot that last part sounds incredibly boring. o.o; The current dynamic actually suits me fine, i.e. a Viper having a fair bit of trouble getting through my shields, (all the better to line up my counter attack,) but certainly not so much that I, as an Anaconda pilot, need absolutely zero skill or effort to resist an attack and can just twiddle my thumbs. Right now, the mechanic does render larger ships very, very dangerous, and more than capable of blowing up Vipers, Eagles, Asps, pretty much any ship except for a Python or another Anaconda, but mostly this is so if they're in the right hands and used properly. Simply saying 'Big Ship = Total Invulnerability' just takes the enjoyment out of having a big ship, by amplifying the power fantasy to the point where there's no challenge remaining.
Only impossible to those that don't know how to play properly but whine on forums about how the game needs balance ;]
This is exactly what I disagree with. Fortunately, it doesn't seem to be this way in the game.
Last edited:
I want a challenge but part of that challenge is acquiring the right kit for the job just as I won’t jump out of a plane at 3000 feet with scuba gear or pull the ripcord of a parachute 30 meters under water and expect to have a good day.
Also why do you think you can unlock all the encounters and challenges with just one ship?
I do understand how the shields currently work but for the price discrepancy they shouldn't
If you want the Viper to be the best combat ship in the game and able to take on all comers fine but then you ether need to dramatic increase the price or drop the price on everything else.
Fair comment and to be honest i agree with not been totally invulnerable but challenge should never be one big ship v one little it should be one big v several little.
if you want to take on a big ship in a fair fight bring a big ship or bring friends.
So tell me: if no other ship is supposed to be better than a Viper in combat and on top of that the Viper costs absolutely nothing in maintenance while the bigger ships cost a humongous fortune for each scratch in the hull... where exactly is the incentive to go for a big ship? Oh right, there is none. So let's just all fly vipers. Maybe we can even get FD to completely remove every other ship from the game. Because that would apparently somehow in some magic way make the game better.
Personally I wanna see diversity. But currently the game balance is so incredibly lopsided favoring viper/cobra in the combat department, it's not funny anymore. Smaller ships lack the punch while larger ships don't bring enough advantages to warrant their ridiculous running costs. And yet this thread is full of people arguing that the larger ships shouldn't even bring any advantage at all. I wonder why that is. It couldn't possibly be selfish reasons because they fly a viper/cobra themselves, couldn't it? No, surely not.
Reality check: Wanting a Python to be slightly but noticeably better than a Viper in combat is absolutely not the same as wanting to "have 5000000 vipers beat on a python with no effect". Claiming other people argue for a position which they actually don't argue for at all: That's just grasping at straws in a debate when you have no reasonable argument left.
By the way, if you are wondering which ship I fly into combat personally: It's a sidewinder.