Artificial Gravity

[Fizzatron]

TLR: Guardians offer the path towards solving the artificial gravity issue in Elite Dangerous.

A lot has been mentioned in regards to artificial gravity in Elite, most recently as a criticism for Odyssey effectively breaking with the lore when it comes to the environment in stations that do not rotate being inexplicable if they were zero-g like they are meant to be. It is a fair criticism that some can hand wave away, while for others they have a harder time with.

Either way, it is a tricky problem for FDev to resolve without some major reworking of the zero-g environments to be more consistent with how they would function, which would likely lead to having to incorporate a lot of other details that would complicate matters even more.

My proposition, which can be made to fit into the game lore, is to incorporate Guardian Tech to have artificial gravity be part of the game-world. I'm not going to get into the murky physics of what gravity is and what it isn't, and the theoretical nature of gravitons etc.. but looking at the Guardian Tech as it currently exists in the game, it looks like they had somewhat of a handle on gravity, so why not have some major research on Guardian Tech reveal previously unknown ways to manipulate gravity to the point where a gravity field can be created large enough to surround a ship, megaship, outpost etc.. with the Coriolis sized stations maybe too big for the power necessary so they retain their rotation.

This would also have the effect of being able to explain the current problem of how ships can land on hi-g planets that you can't disembark from but can drive around on in your srv and also seem perfectly fine in your ship, even though the gravitational effect is the same. I don't know how we could currently survive landing on the 45g world that currently holds the record without some internal gravitational dampening that your ship & srv are capable of.

Seems like a reasonable way to explain it without having to explain it as such if I may say so.

 

[badibeat]

There is no artificial gravity issue.

There are E=mc^2 (which generally should be avoided in space vessels) and acceleration forces.
Any space vessel can be given some rotation around one of it 3 major axes of rotation or fly in a spiral to achieve constant acceleration forces which result in constant forces at sone given radius from the axis. Without rotation this requires constant thrust.

The forces resulting from the four known fundamental interactions (gravitation, electric & magnetic, weak, strong) have a very high dependency on distance of at least 1 / distance squared, limiting their use beyond stuff like magnetic shoes because the source is so close.

Without some acceleration forces the space monkeys could be given a suit with straps or an exoskeleton to keep tension on muscles, bones etc. and attached magnetic shoes. Give every item a ferromagnetic coating or magnet, drink through straws.

To have a nice candle light dinner or safely go to an old fashioned toilet without using tubes a lone vessel could fly on autopilot in a spiral for some time ; )
Two vessels could be tied together and rotate around the center of mass between them (cue Blue Danube).

The issue of landing is solved purely by having high enough thrust/mass and mechanical strength/mas ratios and are in my opinion more acceptable in a futuristic scenario. Though I agree that 45g should not be considered landable. At high gravities the space monkey would have to be submerged in a tank or wear a heavy duty exoskeleton merely to survive.

 

[LeoBartlet]

TLR: Guardians offer the path towards solving the artificial gravity issue in Elite Dangerous.

A lot has been mentioned in regards to artificial gravity in Elite, most recently as a criticism for Odyssey effectively breaking with the lore when it comes to the environment in stations that do not rotate being inexplicable if they were zero-g like they are meant to be. It is a fair criticism that some can hand wave away, while for others they have a harder time with.

Either way, it is a tricky problem for FDev to resolve without some major reworking of the zero-g environments to be more consistent with how they would function, which would likely lead to having to incorporate a lot of other details that would complicate matters even more.

My proposition, which can be made to fit into the game lore, is to incorporate Guardian Tech to have artificial gravity be part of the game-world. I'm not going to get into the murky physics of what gravity is and what it isn't, and the theoretical nature of gravitons etc.. but looking at the Guardian Tech as it currently exists in the game, it looks like they had somewhat of a handle on gravity, so why not have some major research on Guardian Tech reveal previously unknown ways to manipulate gravity to the point where a gravity field can be created large enough to surround a ship, megaship, outpost etc.. with the Coriolis sized stations maybe too big for the power necessary so they retain their rotation.

This would also have the effect of being able to explain the current problem of how ships can land on hi-g planets that you can't disembark from but can drive around on in your srv and also seem perfectly fine in your ship, even though the gravitational effect is the same. I don't know how we could currently survive landing on the 45g world that currently holds the record without some internal gravitational dampening that your ship & srv are capable of.

Seems like a reasonable way to explain it without having to explain it as such if I may say so.

Some treat the lore as if it's an immovable object that can't be added to it's not the bible.

And then in 3308, they invented gravity plating or some such.

Problem solved thanks for coming to my TED talk.

 

[Lacika2000]

Some treat the lore as if it's an immovable object that can't be added to it's not the bible.

And then in 3308, they invented gravity plating or some such.

Problem solved thanks for coming to my TED talk.

I admire (not!) how flexibly you treat the year 3308 in your latest 'let's defend FDev whatever it takes' perspective: we have gravity plating solved, but no possibility to have supercruise assist key binding, or the means to reduce the weight of a limpet control module that is 150 tonnes, etc...

 

[jojon]

Anything can be handwaved with lore additions -- it would still be less: "solution", and more: "cop-out", in this case, IMHO, and a deliberately wasted opportunity.

 

[LeoBartlet]

I admire (not!) how flexibly you treat the year 3308 in your latest 'let's defend FDev whatever it takes' perspective:

You've never crossed my radar before or at least not in a way that makes you memorable have I offended you in the past?

we have gravity plating solved, but no possibility to have supercruise assist key binding, or the means to reduce the weight of a limpet control module that is 150 tonnes, etc...

I'd quite like a SA key but only because im lazy.

 

[Lacika2000]

You've never crossed my radar before or at least not in a way that makes you memorable have I offended you in the past?

No offense at all, I am just describing the behavior to my best capabilities. Hope I did not offend you either.

 

[LeoBartlet]

No offense at all, I am just describing the behavior to my best capabilities. Hope I did not offend you either.

I barely pay attention to what I write so I'd advise you do the same.

o7 Commando.

 

[CMDR Von Abrahart]

I don’t pay attention to anything anyone writes.

 

[varonica]

I very much think that artificial gravity has gone the way of the dodo, I suspect no science fiction writer will use it in their writings these days, I would hope that films and tv series would also do the same. We know enough about gravity by now to know that anti-gravity and artificial gravity in the classic sense are impossible, gravity simply doesn't work that way.

But as Einstein pointed out, gravity equals acceleration. Two scientists in sealed rooms, one on the earth and one being accelerated through space at 9.78 meters per second per second would not be able through any experimental means to determine which one of them was in space and which on the earth, so the means of reproducing gravity is available, it's not artificial, it's how the universe works. Introducing artificial gravity to Elite now would be a mistake. You can use centripetal force in stations to mimic the effect, you can use acceleration in space to create an effect indistinguishable from the real thing, in fact it is the real thing in every sense of the word. We don't really need artificial gravity, situations where the effects are routinely ignored (such as empty pizza boxes on the floor in outposts) I consider not more of an issue than when I watch an old sci-fi films where everyone just walks around regardless of gravity/no gravity.

Not a big issue.

 

[Cmdr John Lyn]

I always figured that it would be humanity studying the thargoids that would enable humans to eventually manipulate gravity. The thargoids are the perfect species for this as their biology and the chemistry of their ammonia homeworld would push their species toward mastering energy sciences. Early on in their development they would have discovered super conductance and so on. Even our interactions with them on surface sites and barnacle forests show us they have the ability to nullify gravity and control it to some degree. So if the devs ever decide to upgrade human tech it should be the thargoids that we learn from.

 

[varonica]

Early on in their development they would have discovered super conductance and so on.

Still not how gravity works, superconductors have no effect on gravity and no scientific research in superconductors has ever indicated it will. There's no suggestion in Thargoid or Guardian tech they have the ability to manipulate gravity.

 

[Cmdr John Lyn]

First of all I never mentioned that superconductance was the key to anything let alone gravity, only mentioning the phenomena as an example that the thargoids had an advanced understanding of energy sciences. And yes there are few examples of thargoids counteracting the force of gravity. Ever notice that srvs and rocks get pulled toward an interceptor when they collect meta alloys at barnacle sites? This is evidence that the thargoids have their own unique ways of fighting the pull of gravity or making a singularity that is powerful enough to overcome the planets own gravity and attract nearby objects. Jump-a-rope and airplane wings could be considered inelegant forms of antigravity technology if you examine hard enough

 

[varonica]

Jump-a-rope and airplane wings could be considered inelegant forms of antigravity technology if you examine hard enough

That's one of the more outlandish and ignorant arguments for anti-gravity I have ever heard. The physics of jump ropes and airplane wings are well understood and are in no way examples of antigravity. As a result of that I feel compelled to ignore the rest of your statement as not even worth discussing!

 

[Stabby_Dave]

Sorry OP, but I have to agree with @varonica here. In any case, I'm really not sure what antigravity would bring to the party. Take out the "no gravity" warning when you disembark from your ship in a station and you'd never really know the difference.

 

[Cmdr John Lyn]

That's one of the more outlandish and ignorant arguments for anti-gravity I have ever heard. The physics of jump ropes and airplane wings are well understood and are in no way examples of antigravity. As a result of that I feel compelled to ignore the rest of your statement as not even worth discussing!

Aren't you the same person who said

"We know enough about gravity by now to know that anti-gravity and artificial gravity in the classic sense are impossible, gravity simply doesn't work that way."

If the manipulation of gravity is impossible by your own words then the only remaining form of defying gravity are rudimentary ways of doing so like jumping, flying, thrust and the forces of motion. So in reality by your own admission you agree with me that forces applied in the opposite direction to the center of a massive body is the only way to achieve "anti-gravity" in any practical way, ie jumping rope. Glad we agree. But I'm hopeful that a boson that is responsible for the effect of gravity will be discovered one day.

 

[varonica]

If the manipulation of gravity is impossible by your own words then the only remaining form of defying gravity are rudimentary ways of doing so like jumping, flying, thrust and the forces of motion. So in reality by your own admission you agree with me that forces applied in the opposite direction to the center of a massive body is the only way to achieve "anti-gravity" in any practical way, ie jumping rope. Glad we agree. But I'm hopeful that a boson that is responsible for the effect of gravity will be discovered one day.

Nope, that's a huge strawman.....oh and by the way, we have already demonstrated the existence of the the Higgs Boson using the LHC to enough position of certainty that it's existence is not in doubt!

Let me just add this, without at least a basic understanding of Einstein's theories of Special and General Relativity and a study of the developments since then you are getting nowhere. The physics of a jump rope not only don't demonstrate anti-gravity in any way, shape or form, but a properly designed experiment will actually demonstrate that the forces of gravity on a skipping individual, as opposed to a stationary and unmoving individual holding a skip rope, actually increases, so it demonstrates exactly the opposite of the position you are arguing.

Now I can understand the position you are coming from, people have spent embarrassingly large amounts of money trying to demonstrate the existence of anti-gravity using centrifugal forces, and every single one of these has been demonstrated to be false once proper scientific analysis has been undertaken, anti-gravity is a dream that seemingly won't die, driven by ignorance and hope. Jumping, flying, rope skipping only demonstrate the use of physics in the application of opposing forces to defy gravity, not to create anti-gravity. Your position is exactly the same as arguing that a Saturn 5 rocket is using anti-gravity to launch, this is demonstrably not true, and all the examples you have presented are also demonstrably not true examples of anti-gravity.

And no, we don't agree because we are discussing the classic idea of anti-gravity, not one you just invented to satisfy your argument!

 

[Cmdr John Lyn]

Nope, that's a huge strawman.....oh and by the way, we have already demonstrated the existence of the the Higgs Boson using the LHC to enough position of certainty that it's existence is not in doubt!

Let me just add this, without at least a basic understanding of Einstein's theories of Special and General Relativity and a study of the developments since then you are getting nowhere. The physics of a jump rope not only don't demonstrate anti-gravity in any way, shape or form, but a properly designed experiment will actually demonstrate that the forces of gravity on a skipping individual, as opposed to a stationary and unmoving individual holding a skip rope, actually increases, so it demonstrates exactly the opposite of the position you are arguing.

Now I can understand the position you are coming from, people have spent embarrassingly large amounts of money trying to demonstrate the existence of anti-gravity using centrifugal forces, and every single one of these has been demonstrated to be false once proper scientific analysis has been undertaken, anti-gravity is a dream that seemingly won't die, driven by ignorance and hope. Jumping, flying, rope skipping only demonstrate the use of physics in the application of opposing forces to defy gravity, not to create anti-gravity. Your position is exactly the same as arguing that a Saturn 5 rocket is using anti-gravity to launch, this is demonstrably not true, and all the examples you have presented are also demonstrably not true examples of anti-gravity.

And no, we don't agree because we are discussing the classic idea of anti-gravity, not one you just invented to satisfy your argument!

You misrepresented my analogy of superconductance and then have the gall to tell me I created a strawman, okay. Varonica you seem to know everything about science and physics so you tell me, how does gravity work? What is the quantum interaction that induces a gravitic attraction? It seems like this forum is for only people who argee with you so I guess us dimwits should just shut up and let big brains like you school us. I'll wait.

 

[Stabby_Dave]

Nobody knows how gravity works. It's one of the greatest questions in physics as yet unanswered.

I think the confusion may be the semantic difference between antigravity and simulated gravity. Gravity warps spacetime, nothing that we do to simulate it does that, ergo no "antigravity", but we can pretty much mimic it.

 

[Fizzatron]

Anything can be handwaved with lore additions -- it would still be less: "solution", and more: "cop-out", in this case, IMHO, and a deliberately wasted opportunity.

I'm not sure who or what you're specifically addressing but if I may guess that the wasted opportunity is zero-g maneuvering on-foot, then I would mention that there is still room for that in other situations and outside ships etc.. I would like to see this sort of stuff too, but I think from a gameplay and technical perspective, artificial gravity just bypasses so much hassle that it is commonly handwaved away and no-one seems to mind. At least low & high G worlds exist properly in Elite.