At notoriety 10, each full NPC / player scan spawns an ATR vessel

[Rubbernuke]

Oh. One mission at a time, of course. You are at notoriety 1, you get a rather simple redemption mission. If you are at 9, the mission you get is much more elaborate. And it's the only one you get. When you completed the mission your notoriety is reduced by one and you get the next mission. Potentially with a delay in between. The higher your notoriety, the longer it takes for the next redemption mission to be presented to you.

The other thought would be do these missions expire (say you stopped playing for a while?)

Nah. I don't think we need a bias towards criminality. What we currently need is to get rid of the indifference towards criminality. Minor actions are severely punished, while punishment doesn't really scale up for bigger crimes. It merely adds a counter, but does not much else.

Balance has to be maintained, if something is actually added for the criminal side, something adequate has to be available on the legal side, too. (If anything, the criminal side might be more risky, while the legal side might be a bit more time consuming. ) That way both sides of the coin would be supported. Everybody, no matter if legal or criminal, would gain something from it. But pushing people to crime would be a very bad idea in game like ED.

Coming from Powerplay and a BGS background I can see that the game always settles too easily into a stable state (too much +ve actions, not enough -ve)- which leads to stasis. Whats a problem is that legal activities pay billions (such as mining) and that piracy does not. ED would need to reverse that to provide temptation to keep people wanting to break the law to get rich.

Hmm. My line of thought unfortunately here is that it won't make much of a difference. I mean, i generally don't do BGS things and don't tough massacre missions. But if i'd want to kill plenty of ships of one faction, i'd actually go to a HAZres. No police or anything like that. Also, at least for me, whenever i get scanned, it's a cargo scan. Always followed by an NPC asking how i make my living and that his kids will starve tonight.

It might not be the fastest way to do that mission, but it would, at least according to my experience, completely avoid the KWS scan. So while i see what you're aiming for, i also right away see a way to work around it.

Unlawful killing (in BGS terms) does not work like that. What I'm suggesting is that hardened unlawful killers to whom notoriety is meaningless have to watch for KWS sec scans by any ship. Since notoriety follows you, so does the threat.

Example: When I BGS kill for influence in a medium sec system I kill 8 and get the ATR incoming buzzer. I jump out, and then back and carry on. I can do this repeatedly and never see ATR.

With my suggestion, anyone who kills randomly (BGS killers, griefers etc) and has a sustained notoriety of 10 will have to evade all security scans or KWS scans whereever they go otherwise ATR pop up. This is far more tricky to escape, because you have to then be constantly aware of bounty hunters, security or other lawful BH players. Anyone with a KWS then becomes an issue for you- so you either keep a low profile (go to an anarchy system / place with few scans) and dip below 10 (and remain below 10) or you evade via silent running or kill the scanner. What the suggestion really is doing is replicating the NPCs reactions to being scanned (i.e. in ages past they'd tell you to stop or else).

 

[Sylow]

The other thought would be do these missions expire (say you stopped playing for a while?)

That's covered by the "you get another one after some time" part. Based on how ED handles missions, they would indeed expire. But you'd quickly get a new one when you return.

Whats a problem is that legal activities pay billions (such as mining) and that piracy does not. ED would need to reverse that to provide temptation to keep people wanting to break the law to get rich.

That's a completely different topic. I do agree that financial rewards for criminal activities are too low in comparison by now. And considering that a nerf after such a long time of massive payouts would not be received well, crime needs to pay better, too.

But we were not speaking merely about credits up there, but about new content and possibly even new equipment reserved for the criminal side only. That's a whole different league and i think it would be bad.

Example: When I BGS kill for influence in a medium sec system I kill 8 and get the ATR incoming buzzer. I jump out, and then back and carry on. I can do this repeatedly and never see ATR.

With my suggestion, anyone who kills randomly (BGS killers, griefers etc) and has a sustained notoriety of 10 will have to evade all security scans or KWS scans whereever they go otherwise ATR pop up. This is far more tricky to escape, because you have to then be constantly aware of bounty hunters, security or other lawful BH players. Anyone with a KWS then becomes an issue for you- so you either keep a low profile (go to an anarchy system / place with few scans) and dip below 10 (and remain below 10) or you evade via silent running or kill the scanner. What the suggestion really is doing is replicating the NPCs reactions to being scanned (i.e. in ages past they'd tell you to stop or else).

I get your drift. But i think as long as it's "KWS scan is required to trigger it", i see several ways of dodging this. I merely described the first one which came to my mind. I think for the effect you want, first of all there should be some ATR in a system at any time, ready to interdict everybody they spot who is on their wanted list.

Which also means on what you described above: you might jump into a system and already after a few seconds get the interdiction running. That's less avoidable. And considering the scenario you described above, it would make much more sense for ATRs still be around than them being absent after you jumping out and returning a minute later.

How balanced that would be is another question. I am not sure about that. But i think that basing the mechanic on being successfully scanned by the KWS keeps it easily avoidable and thus of little meaning.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I get your drift. But i think as long as it's "KWS scan is required to trigger it", i see several ways of dodging this. I merely described the first one which came to my mind. I think for the effect you want, first of all there should be some ATR in a system at any time, ready to interdict everybody they spot who is on their wanted list.

Having ATR on station to me is too harsh, mainly as its binary (either they are there or not). I personally prefer giving players a way to evade if they want to- sinks (needs a module slot), cold running ship, silent running (drops shields though- would give hull tank killers a role), efficient killing, flying away (mini retreat- for fast vessels only) and so on. Players would have to be careful near stations or places with security, paying attention to ship conspicuousness (i.e. paint wear and ship type) blending smuggling skills with everyday flying.

Which also means on what you described above: you might jump into a system and already after a few seconds get the interdiction running. That's less avoidable. And considering the scenario you described above, it would make much more sense for ATRs still be around than them being absent after you jumping out and returning a minute later.

In my suggestion ATR would not be in SC, this is purely in your 'dropped' instance. The reason for it is interdictions (to me) are overused as a method for NPCs to attack you. I much prefer some sort of complication as you go about your normal routine (because added together they can throw you interesting ad hoc situations).

How balanced that would be is another question. I am not sure about that. But i think that basing the mechanic on being successfully scanned by the KWS keeps it easily avoidable and thus of little meaning.

There are ways to dodge it- kill the scanning party, break the scan, or flee- on its own its quite easy to evade. Its when its mixed with other things it becomes a serious complication. As an example, BGS killing: quite often security will try to scan you as you drop down, giving you seconds to kill them. Quite often you can do it, but sometimes they get that scan in and if ATR pop in then you have to decide quickly what to do. With multiple security ships one will almost certainly scan you- and, you have a choice: silent running / pop sink to evade, or run. To effectively chain kill you will have to do more than mow down NPCs in big ships because the threat of ATR coming. Players complain about griefing, if a KWS was a chance at summoning ATR instantly thats a pretty handy tool (and a gamble too).

The great thing too is that it can be isolated from Powerplay- so that it becomes the defacto combat feature. You could even use this mechanic for the hunters powers send you when you defect- it would fit the rationale of being hunted and laying low.

 

[Sylow]

There are ways to dodge it- kill the scanning party, break the scan, or flee- on its own its quite easy to evade. Its when its mixed with other things it becomes a serious complication. As an example, BGS killing: quite often security will try to scan you as you drop down, giving you seconds to kill them. Quite often you can do it, but sometimes they get that scan in and if ATR pop in then you have to decide quickly what to do. With multiple security ships one will almost certainly scan you- and, you have a choice: silent running / pop sink to evade, or run. To effectively chain kill you will have to do more than mow down NPCs in big ships because the threat of ATR coming. Players complain about griefing, if a KWS was a chance at summoning ATR instantly thats a pretty handy tool (and a gamble too).

So all in all, it would work for the very specific example of somebody trying to manipulate the BGS. Now please explain to me for example what your mechanc would do for the 26th player a random PKer takes down in a system. Unless the player fields a KWS and uses it for his defense, nothing will happen there at all. The same is true for about any PvE action where the target doesn't carry a KWS.

So all in all it would turn the KWS from a bounty hunting tool into a "call the police, but they will only come when the one attacking you is already well known" button. I'm sorry, but i am not convinced. If C&P should be of more significance, then ATRs need to be more present, and it should not be tied to the function of one specific utility item.

 

[Rubbernuke]

So all in all, it would work for the very specific example of somebody trying to manipulate the BGS. Now please explain to me for example what your mechanc would do for the 26th player a random PKer takes down in a system. Unless the player fields a KWS and uses it for his defense, nothing will happen there at all. The same is true for about any PvE action where the target doesn't carry a KWS.

So all in all it would turn the KWS from a bounty hunting tool into a "call the police, but they will only come when the one attacking you is already well known" button. I'm sorry, but i am not convinced. If C&P should be of more significance, then ATRs need to be more present, and it should not be tied to the function of one specific utility item.

I'm explaining it in the context of how I play, and my experience of the C + P system as it is now. Its not exhaustive, and those situations are examples I plucked out of the air.

Players who kill more than 10 people /NPCs (i.e. at notoriety 10, in game terms hardened killers) have to be aware of every security scan otherwise ATR hassle them. This measure is an actual hard consequence of being at the top end of the notoriety scale if you go beyond it.

"Now please explain to me for example what your mechanc would do for the 26th player a random PKer takes down in a system. Unless the player fields a KWS and uses it for his defense, nothing will happen there at all. The same is true for about any PvE action where the target doesn't carry a KWS."

Its (IMO) counterproductive trying to lock the game down arbitrarily in a passive PvE C + P system (since ED is mostly PvE and C + P is passive / reactive PvE in nature). People need to understand that the C + P in ED will never be something that will be proactive (even with ideas such as proximity (see my other posts). Someone has to die to set off the C + P chain, and there will always be about 10 seconds of no protection, even in high security systems. Plus, ATR only arrive instantly after you are warned and shoot the victim again- i.e. its reactive.

Then think it through with the idea: every scan anywhere will summon an ATR ship in the instance the agressor is present in. Thats a pretty big deal that requires a lot of forethought to plan for and be aware of. True, it is more of a passive penalty, but its one that fits into the C + P system easily and will be disruptive as it can happen at any time in nearly any system.

Originally I intended this to be for ordinary scans (i.e. those where the ships internals are displayed after a short pause) but I wondered if that was fair, and it ties into scanner ranges which was a plus (encouraging LR scans, A grade sensors, low energy builds, silent running). If these ordinary scans alert the person being scanned (I think they do, but I can't be sure) then I'd possibly modify my idea to that along with the KWS. The KWS is the best example because in game it connects to a bubble wide security network and in my head 'fits' the lore and is more overt- in reality its what creates gameplay and what is balanced.

In the end I wanted to make being a killer hard, but not impossible. Current C + P is restricted to rigid timings, making it based on being scanned as well upends that.

Anyway, I'm off for Christmas, so I'll be dark for a week. Happy Christmas and great debating with you.

 

[Sylow]

Anyway, I'm off for Christmas, so I'll be dark for a week. Happy Christmas and great debating with you.

I understand your idea of making it a fair mechanic and not a blanket "you are here, you are a criminal, welcome to rebuy" scenario. I also right now am pondering how that could actually work in a balanced way.

But i do believe that at least some pro-active ATRs in supercruise would make sense in the world of ED, while i think that linking it to the KWS might not go in the right direction. At the same time i have to admit that i don't have a better solution at hand right away. I might ponder it for a while.

Anyway, I also wish you Happy Christmas and am looking forward to continue this. I enjoy a constructive non-toxic discussion.

 

[Sea_Kerman]

I think that at least in high security systems, there should be wings of ATR sitting around the star. You can, of course, request an escort, but their primary purpose is to say “you have a combat build, CMDR. For security purposes, we will be escorting you through the system.” If you’re just passing through, or going to a RES, or similar, your gameplay is unimpeded. I think that it would add some life to the game, and would make sense, given that high security systems are supposed to be high security.

 

[Teh Smoo]

A half though out idea, but:

If a player is at notoriety 10, they have to be very careful about being scanned by random ships, security or other players as if they are, an ATR security vessel drops in to hassle them.

The handwavium being that a scan is like a sighting of you thats disseminated across system networks, and ATR being security are hooked into this. Caveat being pirates don't trigger this though, being naughty like you.

The only way to stop this happening is to stop killing and drop below notoriety 10, or keep on killing ( ) and be on the lookout for scans (and be prepared to break that scan or destroy that ship). It would add a layer of paranoia to hardened murderers, who would need to in essence smuggle themselves all over to keep on killing. One slip and the super cops come to play and you have to scarper. It would in gameplay terms be like hiding in plain sight, and that players would have to consider conspicuous ships and paint levels (and be aware of silent running) to continue being a killer.

In developer effort it would be easy(?) since its just an extra event condition (pseudocode if notoriety 10 and player ship scan true spawn ATR target player sort of thing).

EDIT: another clause would be that scans from ships with notoriety and/ or wanted don't count either.

That might be one of the better ideas that I've ever heard. Also- ATR should maybe use half a brain? Inara is perfectly capable of giving a security report with secondhand information. ATR could simply show up in systems where commanders are repeatedly attacked/killed. So when people camp busy systems to find and kill ANY target, they would run up ATR. Deciat or Shinrarta would be quite fast, and they could even show up for the more distant systems, if those get busy for some reason.

I'm not expecting that to actually stop anything, by any means. It just means that anyone who wants to kill everyone will have to actually move around, instead of just camping busy systems all day. And combat-specced boats would be REALLY annoying, with their gimpy jump ranges. So... the people who try to annoy everyone get annoyed, which seems fitting. Campers get mobbed.