Atmosphere, hard or easy mode ?

[Darkfyre99]

The wacky thing is, I suppose it might even be suggested they get de-rated for a plausible reason too; maybe to prevent overspeed or some kind of cavitation?

Like a lot of things in ED, I dunno whether the dev's are really, really clever and have a massively broad grasp of all sorts of scientific and engineering principles or whether they just get lucky a lot and have an eclectic user-base who can provide plausible explanations for stuff. [where is it]

I think it's a little from column A and column B.

IMO, there's a lot of relatively hard science fiction in our ships design, and when compromises had to be made for playability ("speed limits in space"), players have been able to come up good explanations for it ("FSD assisted real space flight"). You see this throughout the earliest game designs. Start with a realistic design, dial it back a notch or two so it's fun and can run on modern technology, then players come up with an explanation for the discrepancy.

 

[lysan]

The wacky thing is, I suppose it might even be suggested they get de-rated for a plausible reason too; maybe to prevent overspeed or some kind of cavitation?

Like a lot of things in ED, I dunno whether the dev's are really, really clever and have a massively broad grasp of all sorts of scientific and engineering principles or whether they just get lucky a lot and have an eclectic user-base who can provide plausible explanations for stuff. [where is it]

my guess, it's a combination

 

[Sneake Llama]

The ships we pilot in space shouldn't be able to make an atmospheric landing. Unless lore says otherwise (if it does please link it), ships we pilot are built in space stations or at least on airless worlds. Thus they were probably not manufactured for atmospheric entry.

Other than my pure opinion, I think it would be VERY interesting to see how Fdev handles it all. Not just the actual landing, but you can't have atmosphere Earth-like worlds be barren like air-less worlds we have seen. I really wonder, and am skeptical, of how detailed they could make these worlds full of vegetation and even cities. I just don't think it would be possible. Space-Legs should be way easier to develop compared to highly detailed air worlds with RNG.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

The ships we pilot in space shouldn't be able to make an atmospheric landing. Unless lore says otherwise (if it does please link it), ships we pilot are built in space stations or at least on airless worlds. Thus they were probably not manufactured for atmospheric entry.

its not as solid a foundation as i once thought, but, past games would disagree with you.

ie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-Iimn0M08I

then there is the moray starboat (not in ED yet) but it is a submersible vehicle too for water worlds

http://wiki.maikschulz.de/index.php/Moray_'Starboat'

an adder flying presumably in atmosphere albeit quite high
http://wiki.maikschulz.de/index.php/Adder

anaconda flying over what looks to be agricultural city (ie green )
http://wiki.maikschulz.de/index.php/File:Anaconda.gif

 

[Imultitalented]

Absolutely should be some difficulty. The one thing about Elite I love is the authenticity or possible authenticity.

 

[PhantomWolf]

UFO's just hover, atmosphere or gravity should have zero affect on these highly advanced flying machine's. ..or are we just flying today's tech with warp drives? Which is it??

 

[NW3]

I think it should be harder than the current system, but not NASA level precision, or it'd be annoying.

I imagined there would be a blue zone in the HUD ladder, which tells you the ideal angle of entry, to avoid burning up.
Too steep and your heat simply increases alot faster, too shallow and it just takes a longer time with a slower heat buildup.
The perfect angle for reentry should allow nearly, all but the hottest ships, to enter without too causing damage.

I agree, mostly. If the angle is too shallow, you should "bounce", just like the Apollo astronauts had to worry about. In ED, that would just mean that you'd have to readjust for another reentry. Annoying perhaps, but it's a skill you would learn, just like any other skill in ED.

Also, not every ship should be able to land on a planet with a "thick" atmosphere, because they are not sufficiently aerodynamic, like the Anaconda. I'd like to see a reason to use some of the other, less popular ships. Ships like the Orca and Beluga look like they were designed with atmospheres in mind.

 

[popuptoaster]

I agree, mostly. If the angle is too shallow, you should "bounce", just like the Apollo astronauts had to worry about. In ED, that would just mean that you'd have to readjust for another reentry. Annoying perhaps, but it's a skill you would learn, just like any other skill in ED.

Also, not every ship should be able to land on a planet with a "thick" atmosphere, because they are not sufficiently aerodynamic, like the Anaconda. I'd like to see a reason to use some of the other, less popular ships. Ships like the Orca and Beluga look like they were designed with atmospheres in mind.

All ships in Elite will appear (to an atmosphere) to be a very similar shape, unless you turn the shields off or they are somehow able to allow atmosphere "through" them while still keeping heat out your ship is going to be bubble shaped mostly.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I agree, mostly. If the angle is too shallow, you should "bounce", just like the Apollo astronauts had to worry about. In ED, that would just mean that you'd have to readjust for another reentry. Annoying perhaps, but it's a skill you would learn, just like any other skill in ED.

Also, not every ship should be able to land on a planet with a "thick" atmosphere, because they are not sufficiently aerodynamic, like the Anaconda. I'd like to see a reason to use some of the other, less popular ships. Ships like the Orca and Beluga look like they were designed with atmospheres in mind.

The reason why the Apollo and current ships can bounce of the atmosphere is because they have no downward thrust. It's all done on momentum so need to get to a certain speed at a certain angle to attain reentey. Heat generates as they are going so fast that when they hitnthe atmosphere there is huge amounts of friction. In ED our ships can just continually thrust downwards at a gentle pace in to the atmosphere. There should be no difficulty in landing on atmospheric planets just as there isn't on non atmospherics. Or do you want to add difficulty to it when there shouldn't be.

Aerodynamics will not be an issue with our shields and thrust power.

The only way to make it harder is to completely change the way our ships work or change the laws of physics.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

The reason why the Apollo and current ships can bounce of the atmosphere is because they have no downward thrust. It's all done on momentum so need to get to a certain speed at a certain angle to attain reentey. Heat generates as they are going so fast that when they hitnthe atmosphere there is huge amounts of friction. In ED our ships can just continually thrust downwards at a gentle pace in to the atmosphere. There should be no difficulty in landing on atmospheric planets just as there isn't on non atmospherics. Or do you want to add difficulty to it when there shouldn't be.

Aerodynamics will not be an issue with our shields and thrust power.

The only way to make it harder is to completely change the way our ships work or change the laws of physics.

It's that the game doesn't replicate the real world in space. The bodies lack proper gravity and engines are just too powerful and there is no proper "newtonian flight model". I wonder how far Newton would actually get us in space.

 

[evoelise]

Unlike atmosphere-less planets which have a few stations dotted about you would expect a planet with an atmosphere and a few billion inhabitants to have large cities and huge urban areas. The star port would be just a small part of that. As it would be very difficult to model a whole planet, the cities, all the urban areas and the possible interactions if we could land "anywhere" I expect FD will limit where players can actually land.

To do this I expect that the final landing approach will be either automated or restricted by some kind of "pipe".

 

[Achilles7]

It should be super hard. Only the very best player should be able to land safely.

And on the planet surface there should be engineers with rank 6 blueprints. That way only the best of the best can have the edge.

Also, if you have been ganking people you are not allowed to land, ever. Then you have to go through a teleportation backdoor, through the Planet Core. With much more difficulty. There it must be lots of monsters that are practically impossible to avoid and you get eaten in your ship alive and have to restart with 0 CR and sidewinder again, no rep and all ranks nulled and void.

But if you succeed on the first try, you have access to rank 7 blueprints and is considered the Master of Elites.

This guy gets it! [blah]

Frontier should revisit the flying characteristics of each ship for greater differentiation & the atmospheric flight model/process should add an extra dimension to this - but obviously Frontier will make it all as easy as crashing into the control tower at 400m/s, then scraping along the pad banging into other stuff when landing at a station, with zero consequences...why? Because they know their target demographic!

 

[andrak]

I'm sure entering atmospheres will be implemented like the rest of the game: to give no challenge to the player whatsoever.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

It's that the game doesn't replicate the real world in space. The bodies lack proper gravity and engines are just too powerful and there is no proper "newtonian flight model". I wonder how far Newton would actually get us in space.

The planets do have proper gravity. Anything over 2g can be difficult if you don't have good enough thrusters. I have hit planets surfaces going well over a 500km/second due to gravity. It's just flight assist compensates for the gravity for you. I do understand what some of you are getting at, but with the advanced systems these ships have, getting into and out of an atmosphere will be easy, depending on g and atmospheric pressure. Some planets will be unlandable or extremely dangerous due to the pressure. But anything like mars of today or earth will be easy.

 

[killminster]

I would hope that a range of conditions from barely challenging and mundane all the way through to extremely difficult could be accommodated.

 

[leeG]

Today's spacecraft do ballistic atmospheric entry, and rely on air friction to help them slow down. Thus heat is a big issues as well as precise trajectory control. Our Elite spaceships have the thrust and fuel to match a planets rotation just outside the atmosphere, then descend vertically to the surface. No need for aerodynamic atmospheric flyers.

The mechanic could work as such:

The planetary landing suite brings you into a high super cruise just outside the atmosphere.

Entering glide allows you to slow and descend to a geosynchronous position just inside the atmosphere.

You then continue down to the surface, maneuvering like a helicopter rather than a spaceship. Then "fly" to wherever you want.

Atmospheric drag and frictional heating influence ship performance (speed and handling) and hull temperatures while descending and when flying near the surface. Those commanders who want to see how fast they can make it to the surface without turning into a great burning fireball are free to do so. Those wanting a less exciting landing can "keep it in the blue."

 

[[SI] Bobdelion]

I really hope it feels different - whether that also equates to difficult will be down to the specific implementation. Personally I hope that we have to deal with the likes of weather effects and that the point of entry will become critical to the ease of approach. Ie, plunge headlong into a storm cloud and expect a roller coaster of a descent - aim for a clearing and you'll have a much smother time of it. For ammonia planets or gas giants it would be great to undertake the equivalent of the Aliens 'roller coaster to hell' and be required to track a very specific path through the cloud cover in order to not take on sustained ship damage.

 

[IamMe]

All ships in Elite will appear (to an atmosphere) to be a very similar shape, unless you turn the shields off or they are somehow able to allow atmosphere "through" them while still keeping heat out your ship is going to be bubble shaped mostly.

Than how thrusters work? They are in the inner side of shields. If they are going to make any sense, shield doesn't stop air impact.
Only justified solution to this could be while atmo entry front shields will be; all power to front shields!
While about aerodynamic impact-drag on ship shapes could be justified that ships have multiple thrusters and FA so drag on asymetric ship's shape will be handled by them.
RL aircrafts have only one direction of thrust therefore their stability is dependant on aerofoil design while space ship with thrusters on multiple axis and flight computer that controls them can provide perfect stability and maneuverability.

 

[krylite]

Imo, I don't think it makes lore sense for ships to have that much difficulty landing on regular atmospheric habitable planets. The premise of the current (3303) galactic civilization has been successful colonization of other star systems and their habitable worlds where ships have become a commodity like personal cars, and most every family has a ship or access to one, along with the massive stations and space travel support infrastructure in most populated systems. I think basically just go by the guidelines of Elite2 and Elite3 where you turn on an atmospheric mode to prevent burn-up damage. As for regular weather, it's already the 34th century. The ships have so much more magnitude of power in their thrusters than today's aircraft, that bad weather should be negligible except for some turbulence. If they want to put in freak storms where damage can be done to ships, then perhaps ok, some extra challenge usually avoidable, or even some tactical combat used for evading pursuit and such. Much more dangerous atmospheric effects could be more prevalent in gas giants and constant storm planets where maybe there are just pockets of safe areas for research or secret stations and such.

It would be great with good thruster echoing effects through the atmosphere and even skimming water spray. Similar size to an aspx here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3XZiJyePEI

 

[w3bbo]

I'd like to see players ship kits break off like a badly glued airfix and paintjobs get scorched and peeled back through the searing heat of re-entry.

Can't see it happening though. It will likely be a cut-scene like h-jump ending in a pre-determined starport otherwise there would be too many calls for ship refunds due to too many CMDRs turning themselves into human meteorites when the angle of decent taken was too sharp.