Atmospheric pressure. "Wait, WHAT?" Thread.

Caramel Clown

Caramel Clown
We all know there are bodies with some wonky questionable parameters in this game. What really gets my attention is atmospheric pressure on some planets.
I've recently came about this little thing here, and genuinely was puzzled if it's even possible.
11 million atmospheres? This system also has two planets that look like identical twins with something like 200k atmospheres each, but they are dwarfed by the planet on the picture :)
Any thoughts? Something to share?
ujSuHw0.jpg
 

=71st=RuSh

=71st=RuSh
Caramel Clown said:
We all know there are bodies with some wonky questionable parameters in this game. What really gets my attention is atmospheric pressure on some planets.
I've recently came about this little thing here, and genuinely was puzzled if it's even possible.
11 million atmospheres? This system also has two planets that look like identical twins with something like 200k atmospheres each, but they are dwarfed by the planet on the picture :)
Any thoughts? Something to share?
http://i.imgur.com/ujSuHw0.jpg
Click to expand...

Amazing, in the marianas trench the water pressure is 15,750 psi, more than 1000 times the atmospheric pressure. Now if the atmosphere of the planet is silicate vapour, it's supposed is sodium silicate, the planet have almost 4 times the gravity of earth, we suppose that have thick atmosphere! in this case the relation is gravity-atmosphere composition and density, have to make the math! :)
 

Andurol

Andurol
its a little over twice the size of earth, but with 17 times the mass. Now that's a big ball of dense right there.
 

iain666

iain666
An iron and silicate atmosphere at 8,400K? Yeah, that's going to have pressures that look insane to people used to nitrogen and oxygen at 300K. Add in the extra gravity compared to what we're used to and it just keeps on going up.

A brief google failed to turn up a phase diagram for iron that goes anywhere near that hot so I don't know (or know if anyone knows...) at what pressures you could sustain that atmosphere as a gaseous atmosphere at that temperature.
 

Sunleader

Sunleader
Caramel Clown said:
We all know there are bodies with some wonky questionable parameters in this game. What really gets my attention is atmospheric pressure on some planets.
I've recently came about this little thing here, and genuinely was puzzled if it's even possible.
11 million atmospheres? This system also has two planets that look like identical twins with something like 200k atmospheres each, but they are dwarfed by the planet on the picture :)
Any thoughts? Something to share?
http://i.imgur.com/ujSuHw0.jpg
Click to expand...

Its not really Wonky or even Surprising.
Check what the actual Atmosphere is made off.

The Atmosphere is Silicates and Iron.
At over 8000 Degree Celsius

That little Planet which is only 80 Light Seconds away from its Mother Star. Is Cooked so Badly that the Sand on his Surface has been Turned into a Gas/Liquid which forms his Atmosphere.
Meanwhile his actual Surface is Cooking as well breaking out in Volcanoes over and over.

Its not an Atmosphere of an Light Gas like we got on the Earth Mate :)
 

Caramel Clown

Caramel Clown
Sunleader said:
Its not really Wonky or even Surprising.
Check what the actual Atmosphere is made off.

The Atmosphere is Silicates and Iron.
At over 8000 Degree Celsius

That little Planet which is only 80 Light Seconds away from its Mother Star. Is Cooked so Badly that the Sand on his Surface has been Turned into a Gas/Liquid which forms his Atmosphere.
Meanwhile his actual Surface is Cooking as well breaking out in Volcanoes over and over.

Its not an Atmosphere of an Light Gas like we got on the Earth Mate :)
Click to expand...

Yeah, I was looking at other parameters and it kind of work. I still can't stop thinking that maybe starforge has no limitations in many areas. And if all numbers add up it just creates these crazy bodies, even if it's not possible in nature.
As it was pointed out - this planet should emit pretty bright light.
 
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Sunleader

Sunleader
Caramel Clown said:
Yeah, I was looking at other parameters and it kind of work. I still can't stop thinking that maybe starforge has no limitations in many areas. And if all numbers add up it just creates these crazy bodies, even if it's not possible in nature.
As it was pointed out - this planet should emit pretty bright light.
Click to expand...

Well not Exactly.
Its still not a Sun after all.
It does have the Heat due to Volanism. Which in Fact should be Visible from Space. (And hopefully we get this some day)
But the Light would not really be Bright. Because the Atmosphere itself is only Heated up. The Mass is nowhere near what you would need to have an Reaction going. So at best it would be as Bright as an Brown Dwarf.
But due to being much much Smaller than a Brown Dwarf it wont be anything you.ll see on a Larger Distance. :)


And well yes and no.
Apparently FD does have some Limitations and Regulations as to How Stellar Bodies can Develop.
Problem is we dont 100% know whats Possible and whats not Possible.
Our Knowledge towards Space Physics are Fairly Limited.

For a Fact we currently have a Place Holder named Dark Matter. Which is required for our Space Physics to work with the Galaxy because if our Physics Applied the Galaxy would need to be Expanding roughly Twice as Fast.
Which means that right now we have two Options.

Either we got something we have not yet Discovered and which we cannot really explain to Exist at all.
Or our Physics are Plain and Old Wrong :)

And while alot of Dreamers keep talking about Dark Matter etc.
My Personal Guess would be that we are simply Wrong :p
Something we are applying as a Law is not working the way we think it is. :)
 

Darth Ender

D
Wrong. 8k Kelvin would have the thing glowing like a hot nickel ball. Doesn't matter if it isn't fusion. Heat is what gives stars their light, the same effect would happen to the planet if given enough heat and 8k Kelvin is plenty to glow pretty bright.

The brown dwarfs in the game by contrast glow regardless of their temp. The engine is not accurate at all when it comes to any of these edge cases. And I use edge loosely.

Plenty of these y dwarfs aren't even massive enough to be classed as stars yet are anyway due to limitations in how the game is coded to require a 'star' in each system.

Just think. We have dark systems and rogue planet systems in the game already but limitations in the game engine are misrepresenting them. Sad.
 

Muetdhiver

Muetdhiver
Well at 8400K, the atmosphere is actually made of plasma, not gas.

Also, it should glow brightly, in the blue part of the spectrum from blackbody radiation.
 

Zieman

Zieman
Muetdhiver said:
Well at 8400K, the atmosphere is actually made of plasma, not gas.

Also, it should glow brightly, in the blue part of the spectrum from blackbody radiation.
Click to expand...
Surface Temp is 8400K - that thick atmosphere surely blocks any surface light, and is much cooler in its outer fringes.
 

Ziljan

Ziljan
From a thread on the same topic:

Crazy high pressures like this?
yTlxX3I.jpg


In Frontier's defense, it's not trivially easy to calculate the pressure on the surface of a planet unless you know the total mass of the atmosphere, the radius, and force of gravity.

However, it is very easy to check to Frontier's math by deriving the mass of the atmosphere from the given information :D

TsbMrWb.gif


6.308 x 1025 kg is roughly 10.5 times the mass of Earth!!! This would mean that nearly half of the planet's mass is in the atmosphere, and the mass of the planet listed is only the solid core portion of the planet. Hence this would be "gas dwarf" with a rocky atmosphere. Maybe this is possible? I honestly don't know.

So in essence, yes perhaps the stellar forge was drunk, if only for the fact that there seems to be some missing mass from system map that be verified by doing a simple g = F/M calculation with a virtual apple as a test mass at radius R.

In fact, I think all of the surface pressure calculations in the game need a revamp, and this needs to be done BEFORE they implement atmospheres! They seem to be based on an overwrought version of PV=nRT, and forgetting that the surface pressure of the atmosphere cannot exceed its actual gravitational weight ;)

Luckily there is an easy solution: I would suggest that a better approximation would be to calculate the mass % of the planet that gets converted into atmosphere at certain temperature ranges given the material composition (rock/metal/ice and general heat trapping qualities). Then use the % mass number to calculate the surface pressure via gravity as:

tNC12xa.gif


For example:

On Earth, the mass of the atmosphere is 5.148x1018kg which is about 0.0001 % of the Earth's total mass.
On Venus, the mass of the atmosphere is 4.8x1020kg which is about 0.01 % of the total mass of Venus.
On Mars, the mass of the atmosphere is 2.5x1016kg which is about 0.000004 % of the total mass of Mars.

Despite the fact that these planets all have vastly different temperatures, these relative mass percentages of the atmospheres line up pretty well with the relative surface pressures of each atmosphere. Venus has a surface pressure almost 100 times greater than earth, and Mars has surface pressure about .006 that of Earth. So this is a quick test to see if the pressure on the surface is reasonable or not. Hence the temperature should be used to calculate the % of mass that is turned into Atmosphere, and then a quick and dirty (but far more accurate) estimate of the surface pressure can be made.

I hope FD is reading this last bit :)
 

Sunleader

Sunleader
Darth Ender said:
Wrong. 8k Kelvin would have the thing glowing like a hot nickel ball. Doesn't matter if it isn't fusion. Heat is what gives stars their light, the same effect would happen to the planet if given enough heat and 8k Kelvin is plenty to glow pretty bright.

The brown dwarfs in the game by contrast glow regardless of their temp. The engine is not accurate at all when it comes to any of these edge cases. And I use edge loosely.

Plenty of these y dwarfs aren't even massive enough to be classed as stars yet are anyway due to limitations in how the game is coded to require a 'star' in each system.

Just think. We have dark systems and rogue planet systems in the game already but limitations in the game engine are misrepresenting them. Sad.
Click to expand...

Wrong.
Something can be 20.000k as long as there is no Reaction (does not need to be Fusion)
It will not Emit this Energy at an Rate where its going to emit light.

In this case the Heat is not due to the Planet Emitting Energy. But due to the Planet receiving energy from the Sun.
 

Lucius-Darcia

Lucius-Darcia
iain666 said:
An iron and silicate atmosphere at 8,400K? Yeah, that's going to have pressures that look insane to people used to nitrogen and oxygen at 300K. Add in the extra gravity compared to what we're used to and it just keeps on going up.

A brief google failed to turn up a phase diagram for iron that goes anywhere near that hot so I don't know (or know if anyone knows...) at what pressures you could sustain that atmosphere as a gaseous atmosphere at that temperature.
Click to expand...

The higher the pressure is, the higher the temperature can go without the element going liquid or gas. The pressure depends on the realtion between mass, size and sort of elements. This makes the density.
 

Ziljan

Ziljan
Lucius-Darcia said:
The higher the pressure is, the higher the temperature can go without the element going liquid or gas. The pressure depends on the realtion between mass, size and sort of elements. This makes the density.
Click to expand...

That's all well and good to cite P~T, however you also get planets that have a chilly 193 K surface temp and still somehow have insane >200 atmospheres.

Clearly their formula for surface pressure is borked. Especially when the gas creating the atmo has a molar weight slightly heavier than Earth. Either that, or Frontier is assuming some extremely thick and deep atmospheres on most planets. So thick they would seem like liquid to us.
 

Muetdhiver

Muetdhiver
Zieman said:
Surface Temp is 8400K - that thick atmosphere surely blocks any surface light, and is much cooler in its outer fringes.
Click to expand...

Indeed, if it's the surface temperature, things can be much cooler in the upper atmosphere.

Though, I guess it would still be in the hot enough to be in the "glow temperature" range.

I wonder how they will manage atmospheric flight on such planets. It's not like cooling the ship will be easy* XD
On this I think that some planets should just be too hostile to land on / fligh over safely.

*A new module type like a "coolant" tank could be usefull for that. Such as boiling water** to cool the ship for a while.
Would also give a purpose to pack a refinery and a laser in exploration and go mining Ice rings.

**Or, add in an option to use/vent liquid H2 fuel for cooling (not to do in O2 rich places XD).
 
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Darth Ender

D
Sunleader said:
Wrong.
Something can be 20.000k as long as there is no Reaction (does not need to be Fusion)
It will not Emit this Energy at an Rate where its going to emit light.

In this case the Heat is not due to the Planet Emitting Energy. But due to the Planet receiving energy from the Sun.
Click to expand...

The act of cooling releases photons. The frequency depends on how excited they are. The excitement depends on the temperature Delta. So think again. Such temperatures would emit well into the visible spectrum.
 

JetsonRING

JetsonRING
Caramel Clown said:
We all know there are bodies with some wonky questionable parameters in this game. What really gets my attention is atmospheric pressure on some planets.
I've recently came about this little thing here, and genuinely was puzzled if it's even possible.
11 million atmospheres? This system also has two planets that look like identical twins with something like 200k atmospheres each, but they are dwarfed by the planet on the picture :)
Any thoughts? Something to share?
http://i.imgur.com/ujSuHw0.jpg
Click to expand...
Seems to me that two planets, similar in size/volume but different in mass and/or materials could easily have vastly differing atmospheric densities. One planet (for example) made of Lead and another made of cotton candy. Both planets can have the same volume but the one made of Lead is very dense, has much higher gravity and consequently a much denser atmosphere, the other does not.
 
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