PvP ATR wont save you

Maybe you have it so scrubbing hot ships is graded?

So, to begin with you can scrub your ship anywhere, but as you become more and more wanted you become too hot for the core systems to scrub, slowly forcing you out to the edges of the bubble?

One of the harder objections to overcome to the 'can't repair anywhere' idea is making it believable, justifying it in-lore. With a bit of handwavium I think it's less immersion breaking than multi-crew telepresence say, but it's still a sticking point.

I like the idea of notoriety affecting a 'bubble' around the players' bounty-generating activities, so that their safe haven gets further away the more of a baddie they are (which could scale up to not docking anywhere in the main bubble say - imagine having to travel to Maia to repair after shooting up Shinrata, or vice versa), but it faces the same 'lore' issue.

Why would a nearby system not give you access to services? Something related to your notoriety AND being in the hot ship, notoriety only, or hot ship only? I'm canvassing for ideas, not shooting yours down btw, I like the idea.
 
[big grin]

I feel for the moderation team when this goes live.


So far I don't hate the system. Its a bit heavy handed but as always... we will adapt and overcome as usual.

You can slow us down, but you'll never stop us.
 
[big grin]

I feel for the moderation team when this goes live.


So far I don't hate the system. Its a bit heavy handed but as always... we will adapt and overcome as usual.

You can slow us down, but you'll never stop us.

You will adapt & overcome, and probably trick others into traps. And those traps will be even more expensive, and even fewer players will stay in Open, and the people that remain will ask why so few play in open, and so on and so on.

Or, we can provide some useful feedback now on ways in which it could be gamed, to give Fdev the opportunity* to avoid the worst of this & have it be both effective and engaging play.

*FDev reserve their right not to change anything.
 
Nope. Someone did a test on it yesterday. You accrue Notoriety from attacking NPCs also.

Ahh! So.. Why do assassination missions now then :)



Do we have any idea how quickly it decays? Please say we're talking weeks/months and not hours!
 

ALGOMATIC

Banned
[big grin]

I feel for the moderation team when this goes live.


So far I don't hate the system. Its a bit heavy handed but as always... we will adapt and overcome as usual.

You can slow us down, but you'll never stop us.

Pretty much this. What I was trying to point out with this post is that I believe it will be worse with the new system.
Worse for whoever it was supposed to protect to begin with, which are gankable weak cmdrs who dont outfit their ship for defense.

The result is we will have hot ships flying around that are 100% dedicated to ganking.
Sometimes I dont feel like killing everything, sometimes I am looking for a proper 1 v 1 in a CG, and right now FDEv are taking this away from me because I killed few cmdrs who didnt want to be killed.
The result is, when I login I will be forced to choose my play style between proper 1 v 1 and mass murder, and right now the mass murder part looks really appealing.
 
Last edited:
Pretty much this. What I was trying to point out with this post is that I believe it will be worse with the new system.
Worse for whoever it was supposed to protect to begin with, which are gankable weak cmdrs who dont outfit their ship for defense.

The result is we will have hot ships flying around that are 100% dedicated to ganking.
Sometimes I dont feel like killing everything, sometimes I am looking for a proper 1 v 1 in a CG, and right now FDEv are taking this away from me because I killed few cmdrs who didnt want to be killed.
The result is, when I login I will be forced to choose my play style between proper 1 v 1 and mass murder, and right now the mass murder part looks really appealing.



This was a forgone conclusion imo.
Watching all of this unfold is pretty entertaining.
 

Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
I would guess from Besiegers comments in this thread the ATR NPCs are just regular Elite NPCs with special loadouts making them faster & harder hitting but no more or less clever than the rest of the AI in the game. This suggests that they are unlikely to get any cleverer unless the regular stuff does too. Similarly with their relative persistence, if they are 'just' regular NPCs in special ships they will follow the regular ships patterns elsewhere & would despawn if no one held the instance open, and not recognise you if you return (I believe). I have not tested this & frankly, couldn't, your experience & opinions here are important & it's why I'm pushing this idea here in the PvP forum more than anywhere else.

Your exit from the cycle of self-destruction is the same as I picture, it may be that my idea of denying repair/rearm would just make it happen sooner.
Yeah, the ATR are just beefed up NPCs with some of the same flaws as regular NPCs. That's the reason Harry could kite them the way he did, as that's also possible with regular NPCs. As long as you avoid their weapons, you can stay with the ATR indefinitely.
The fact that they also "forget" that you're in the system when you low-wake, and don't re-appear until 1 minute after you've made another kill, adds to the silliness of their current iteration.
 
Pretty much this. What I was trying to point out with this post is that I believe it will be worse with the new system.
Worse for whoever it was supposed to protect to begin with, which are gankable weak cmdrs who dont outfit their ship for defense.

The result is we will have hot ships flying around that are 100% dedicated to ganking.
Sometimes I dont feel like killing everything, sometimes I am looking for a proper 1 v 1 in a CG, and right now FDEv are taking this away from me because I killed few cmdrs who didnt want to be killed.
The result is, when I login I will be forced to choose my play style between proper 1 v 1 and mass murder, and right now the mass murder part looks really appealing.

Will anyone notice a difference if you don't tell them? ;)

Point out the flaws, try to solve them now, raise the issue (in an accommodating way) while it's in beta. What will other PvPers do? Hopefully just keep a cleaner slate, or pay it off.

Seems to me you can still do either (at the very least, with a bit of self-control & forward planning you should be able to do both), which would you rather do? Choose that.
 

Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
The problem is, you guys are working on a completely different premise then Fdev is. Fdev simply wants to curb aggression by making it more difficult to a reasonable degree; they never said they were planning to halt it outright.

I suggest you check your premises.
No, the premise was among other things that a single player wouldn't be able to kill NPC system security indefinitely, without consequences, making it impossible for a single commander to cause a system to go into lockdown. That's why ATR also respond to NPC crimes, not just player on player. They also were supposed to be able to keep you in the instance longer, making it harder to leave.
Unfortunately, they missed the barndoor by a mile when they didn't add persistance and a smarter AI to the ATR. The only change in difficulty now is that the murderspree is changed to "lots of murders, ATR appears, lowwake, kill 1 target, lowwake, kill 1 target, rinse and repeat."
 
Last edited:
No, the premise was among other things that a single player wouldn't be able to kill NPC system security indefinitely, without consequences, making it impossible for a single commander to cause a system to go into lockdown. That's why ATR also respond to NPC crimes, not just player on player. They also were supposed to be able to keep you in the instance longer, making it harder to leave.
Unfortunately, they missed the barndoor by a mile when they didn't add persistance and a smarter AI to the ATR. The only change in difficulty now is that the murderspree is changed to "lots of murders, ATR appears, lowwake, kill 1 target, lowwake, kill 1 target, rinse and repeat."

The false premise that I was referring to in that quote was concerning several players who are lobbying for anarchy systems being made off limits to "hot" players and countdown timers in our ships that end in an explosion if the ATR ships don't manage to catch and kill us.

I'm all for persistent ATR, if we're going to have them at all. Personally I think they are a dreadful inclusion to the game on a number of levels, lack of persistence being one.

What people need to understand about player killers is very simple: nothing you can think of short of running them permanently out of the game is going to stop the murdering. And Fdev doesn't want to go that far.

The players who require handholding are going to have to make due with a system that merely makes ganking a little more interesting for the bad guy. Simple as that.
 
Last edited:
The false premise that I was referring to in that quote was concerning several players who are lobbying for anarchy systems being off limits to "hot" players and countdown timers in our ships that end in an explosion.

I'm all for persistent ATR, if we're going to have them at all. Personally I think they are a dreadful inclusion to the game on a number of levels, lack of persistence being one.

What people need to understand about player killers is very simple: nothing you can think of short of running them permanently out of the game is going to stop the murdering. And Fdev doesn't want to go that far.

The players who require handholding are going to have to make due with a system that merely makes ganking a little more interesting for the bad guy. Simple as that.

Seems a bit whiny to me.

I wonder, how much support do you suppose my suggestion would get if I put it in DD, or the main beta C&P feedback thread?
I'm putting it here (and Besiegers' thread that most PvEers will ignore) because I want to test it & find flaws, then see if those flaws can be fixed. That's what griefers are good at, finding loopholes.

So far we have two decent objections:

It's difficult to justify why you would be denied full docking privileges (Morbad describes this well), and
Going out in a blaze of glory is likely to increase the amount of damage the baddie attempts to do before they are finally taken down as Martian pointed out.

I accept that the idea isn't popular, I don't need it to be. I do want you to understand that these 'problems' can be solved, and if you dear reader of this post think that maybe the rest of the community would consider you a 'problem', maybe coming up with a solution that also works for you would be a good idea, rather than leaving it to some scrubby PvEers to do.

The first can probably be overcome, the second seems like one hell of a party that must end at midnight. I can think of worse ways to go (eg insta-kill NPCs).
 
You will adapt & overcome, and probably trick others into traps. And those traps will be even more expensive, and even fewer players will stay in Open, and the people that remain will ask why so few play in open, and so on and so on.

Or, we can provide some useful feedback now on ways in which it could be gamed, to give Fdev the opportunity* to avoid the worst of this & have it be both effective and engaging play.

*FDev reserve their right not to change anything.


I gank with purpose. Occasionally the odd trader but they add up in a hurry when they don't share their booty, most people I'm shooting are prepared for it and have a pretty good idea I'm coming.

We've offered feedback and ideas for ages and funnily enough the majority of them ONLY affected PvP... and now we have this hot mess than everyone gets to enjoy. So I mean...
 
Seems a bit whiny to me.

I wonder, how much support do you suppose my suggestion would get if I put it in DD, or the main beta C&P feedback thread?
I'm putting it here (and Besiegers' thread that most PvEers will ignore) because I want to test it & find flaws, then see if those flaws can be fixed. That's what griefers are good at, finding loopholes.

So far we have two decent objections:

It's difficult to justify why you would be denied full docking privileges (Morbad describes this well), and
Going out in a blaze of glory is likely to increase the amount of damage the baddie attempts to do before they are finally taken down as Martian pointed out.

I accept that the idea isn't popular, I don't need it to be. I do want you to understand that these 'problems' can be solved, and if you dear reader of this post think that maybe the rest of the community would consider you a 'problem', maybe coming up with a solution that also works for you would be a good idea, rather than leaving it to some scrubby PvEers to do.

The first can probably be overcome, the second seems like one hell of a party that must end at midnight. I can think of worse ways to go (eg insta-kill NPCs).

I would contend that you requiring a system that ends with the bad guys being blown up by remote control is what is "whiny," Riverside. And this is all besides the point; it isn't going to happen, which was my point about the premise.
 
I gank with purpose. Occasionally the odd trader but they add up in a hurry when they don't share their booty, most people I'm shooting are prepared for it and have a pretty good idea I'm coming.

We've offered feedback and ideas for ages and funnily enough the majority of them ONLY affected PvP... and now we have this hot mess than everyone gets to enjoy. So I mean...

Oddly enough I just posted above something that covers this too :)
It's frustrating that FDev act so slowly, but as a community PvP doesn't have a great relationship with the rest of the game because of bad eggs within this community. The Mobius crowd have the same problem. Most are okay, a few are obnoxious. I'm not interested in solving their problems, I am interested in keeping PvP (whether freeform or organised) a part of the game.

If you kill a bunch of Cmdrs (or cops I guess) that's fun, but it should have a consequense. If we were to each give a number of Cmdr kills we thought were acceptable before the really bad stuff kicks in, I'm absolutely sure my number would be way lower than yours.

This same PvP community also contains the solution, the players who can be persistent & drive you out of a system, even if you kill dozens of them eventually your Power Plant will fail if you can't repair it, and you get your punishment, having both created and had delivered to you whole lot of emergent content ;)
 
I would contend that you requiring a system that ends with the bad guys being blown up by remote control is what is "whiny," Riverside. And this is all besides the point; it isn't going to happen, which was my point about the premise.

My response is directed to all readers, not just the poster quoted:

It could happen though if the devs were sufficiently motivated to do it, and it wouldn't take much more to implement on top of what they've already done. So be careful out there Cmdr, and consider the potential consequences (shaping how the game is developed) of your actions ;)
 
For anyone that's interested, here's a suggestion from Besieger on how to tackle the problem:

Improving the AI is simple the only way it will be fixed short term, if I could chose anything though... it would be new modules, Ewar specifically, things like sensor disruption, capacitor draining etc things that EVE's CONCORD use other than their weapons that kill.

In EVE the primary aim of CONCORD is to prevent a kill, it does this with Ewar, Jamming the attackers sensor soon removes any threat from the target for example.

Picture being unable to use your scanner (or weapons, or whatever). Without a scanner you can't dock at all. It could be worse ;)
 
Picture being unable to use your scanner (or weapons, or whatever). Without a scanner you can't dock at all. It could be worse ;)

Just a big, no, no, no, no from me.

[video=youtube;FyU1a4c1Tdk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyU1a4c1Tdk[/video]


How about making playing as a bounty hunter viable? Wouldn't that be so much more interesting?

If you were on the receiving end of some emergent content from CMDR Griefer it would be nice to put out your own contract on Mr Griefer.

Maybe your own million credit contract. For CMDR Hero that accepts, CMDR Griefer shows up as a mission target. CMDR Hero can see on the galaxy map which system CMDR Griefer is in and match making does its best to make sure they end up in the same instance.
 
Last edited:
Just a big, no, no, no, no from me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyU1a4c1Tdk


How about making playing as a bounty hunter viable? Wouldn't that be so much more interesting?

If you were on the receiving end of some emergent content from CMDR Griefer it would be nice to put out your own contract on Mr Griefer.

Maybe your own million credit contract. For CMDR Hero that accepts, CMDR Griefer shows up as a mission target. CMDR Hero can see on the galaxy map which system CMDR Griefer is in and match making does its best to make sure they end up in the same instance.

I read Harry's comment re CONCORD which Riverside is quoting out of context IMO as saying "This is what it will take to stop griefing." Not that he was saying he actually wants that, just that nothing short of it is going to stop player murders. Big difference.
 
I read Harry's comment re CONCORD which Riverside is quoting out of context IMO as saying "This is what it will take to stop griefing." Not that he was saying he actually wants that, just that nothing short of it is going to stop player murders. Big difference.

Yeah, I'm just a solid no to all the super bots and the other nonsense. Was the easiest out of several posts to quote.

I don't want ATR, I want more Cobra Kai and more tools/incentives for players like Cobra Kai.
 
Yeah, I'm just a solid no to all the super bots and the other nonsense. Was the easiest out of several posts to quote.

I don't want ATR, I want more Cobra Kai and more tools/incentives for players like Cobra Kai.

I'm not sure that will work out too well.

Certain players will simply *sweep the leg* and leave you wondering why all your instances are, urm, a bit empty.
 
Back
Top Bottom