'Attack of the AI' III

How is the AI for you in 2.1.02?

  • I'm too young to die! (Waaay too easy)

    Votes: 25 3.1%
  • Hey' not too rough (Too easy)

    Votes: 89 11.2%
  • Hurt me plenty (About right)

    Votes: 365 46.0%
  • Ultra-Voilence (Too hard)

    Votes: 231 29.1%
  • Nightmare! (Waaay too hard)

    Votes: 84 10.6%

  • Total voters
    794
  • Poll closed .
There is not point to having a combat build anymore, and likewise there is definitely no point to engineer upgrades.

You're just being silly at this point.

FAS is a dedicated combat ship. I'd you'd like, come at me with any Python build you like. ANY. I will smash it in my FAS. If you shield and hull tank enough it might take me a little longer but that's it. Python is a multipurpose ship. I set mine up as a combat smuggler. It can take on some lesser threats but that is not its primary purpose. Getting goods from a to b safely is how I've set mine up. It can also be set up for any number of tasks but as they say, jack of all trades, master of none. FAS is a monster. You think smaller shields will make a bit of difference on a ship that's faster, nimbler and more heavily armoured? OK, then.
Edit: my point is I'm not that good and an elite FAS should send me packing. I wouldn't stand a chance in hell against a player in an FAS if I were in my Python and even in my FAS a good PVP player in his FAS will own me...

"Come at me with anything you've got and I'll smash you"
"my point is I'm not that good"
That's a direct contradiction, don't you think?

I've played both ships. I used an FAS to reach Master combat rank, hunting bounties around Wolf 397 (I was so relieved when .03 changed Todd to accept all Wolf 397 bounties & now combat bonds too); I had plenty of time to experiment with loadouts and the way the ship feels.

The numbers on edshipyard or coriolis don't lie.
Full-tank Python: https://coriolis.io/outfit/python/2pptkFflidussf5---1717040404044f2d2d2d2d2b292927.Iw18eQ==.Aw18eQ==
Full-tank FAS: https://coriolis.io/outfit/federal_...4--1717040404044a2d2b292727.Iw18cQ==.Aw18cQ==

The FAS is a capable combat ship, but it's not some instant-I-Win superman-mode king of combat. Its advantage lies solely in having more maneuverability than can be typically found in ships around its size.

It honestly does not make sense to me, looking at both ships, for you to expect any NPC or person in an FAS to auto-win against you in your Python, even if you're in a multirole loadout as opposed to purely min/max combat loadout.
 
Last edited:
You're just being silly at this point.

"Come at me with anything you've got and I'll smash you"
"my point is I'm not that good"
That's a direct contradiction, don't you think?

I've played both ships. I used an FAS to reach Master combat rank, hunting bounties around Wolf 397 (I was so relieved when .03 changed Todd to accept all Wolf 397 bounties & now combat bonds too); I had plenty of time to experiment with loadouts and the way the ship feels.

The numbers on edshipyard or coriolis don't lie.
Full-tank Python: https://coriolis.io/outfit/python/2pptkFflidussf5---1717040404044f2d2d2d2d2b292927.Iw18eQ==.Aw18eQ==
Full-tank FAS: https://coriolis.io/outfit/federal_...4--1717040404044a2d2b292727.Iw18cQ==.Aw18cQ==

The FAS is a capable combat ship, but it's not some instant-I-Win superman-mode king of combat. Its advantage lies solely in having more maneuverability than can be typically found in ships around its size.

It honestly does not make sense to me, looking at both ships, for you to expect any NPC or person in an FAS to auto-win against you in your Python, even if you're in a multirole loadout as opposed to purely min/max combat loadout.
Not with anything. My guess is you'd smash me if you were in the FAS and I were in my Python. I'm saying that in a matchup of FAS vs Python, the FAS has a severe advantage.
 
Not with anything. My guess is you'd smash me if you were in the FAS and I were in my Python. I'm saying that in a matchup of FAS vs Python, the FAS has a severe advantage.

A severe advantage in pitching rate, certainly.

Everywhere else (perhaps aside from thruster effectiveness, e.g., mobility), the FAS observably falls short.
 
Last edited:
The current mode is when you use console commands to turn off the monsters , not any default setting

The fact the AI treats you like a special flower and changes based no loadout , rank and current hull is terible in my opinion.

I even noticed that if you stop moving the NPCs sort of slow down there own rate of fire , I have been testing multiple things and the AI is rubber-banded now.
I hope this is just a temp solution until we get what was promised back in the old days.

Low ranks = easy
High ranks = hard
Elite rank = insane

as right now its

Low ranks = very easy
High ranks = easy
Elite rank = less easy

What happened to the promise of FA/OFF enemies , backwards flight in combat? NPCs that would give us nightmare? Has M.O.M. been banned from using her full set of tools?

We need a new mode ''open-realistic'' just were the NPCs spawn as is , no silly ballance based on rank or NPCs that treat you like your special and just let the high ranks be amazing.

I have stoped using pip manament again and have gone back to what I did in 2.0 days.
I miss the few weeks were the AI was decent
 
Last edited:
A severe advantage in pitching rate, certainly.

Everywhere else (perhaps aside from thruster effectiveness, e.g., mobility), the FAS observably falls short.

The mobility is king in combat. Both players being equal, the more maneuverable ship has the advantage (for the most part). An FAS will simply not give a Python much time on target and it is tough enough to take a beating in its own right. There are also a few things the stats don't take into account, like ramming. The FAS is just more effective in combat hands down (1v1 because the Python can function as a light tank or sniper in a wing).
Anyway, I think we've both stated our position solidly. If anyone else wants to interject on their experiences between FAS and Python, please do. The context is that I'm of the view that an Elite FAS NPC (being a tried and true dedicated combat ship known as one of the most effective in PVP) should be a massive, if not overwhelming, threat to any player Python and even more so to one set up as a smuggling ship. For comparison, this is what I'm running delivery missions with and now defeating dedicated elite NPC FASs, FDLs, Clippers and even the odd Anaconda:
https://coriolis.io/outfit/python/2...j4yoo.IwBj4yNNSA==?bn=Nemesis (in transition)
When I say I'm not that good and then mention I can take those on, my point is that there is something off with the difficulty settings. I KNOW that I'm at best competent because I do get to practice some PVP with friends (and occasionally not friends) and the better ones will own me every time all else being equal so I'm not theorycrafting. I'm posting an observation based on experience and providing context so you can come to your own conclusions.
 
Last edited:
The mobility is king in combat.
Well, this depends. If you focus on fixed weaponry, then perhaps. But with gimballed & turreted weaponry, that's not the whole case. And your survivability goes up exponentially if you trade off maneuverability for being bigger and fatter.
Mobility does grant you higher freedom in choosing your engagement, of course, but that's where I find the "mass lock factor" to be a real clever addition...otherwise smaller ships would, indeed, dominate most combat activities without much hassle.

Both players being equal, the more maneuverable ship has the advantage (for the most part). An FAS will simply not give a Python much time on target and it is tough enough to take a beating in its own right.
Well, if the python has only fixed/gimballed weaponry, then this is true - this is exactly what I was struggling with after 2.1.
But then I put a pair of turrets on the two topside large weapon mounts...and that's been quite effective, especially with burst lasers (they tend to 'miss' less due to chaff or maneuvering, I find) and in combination with flying in reverse or doing the boost + FA/off maneuver. The seeker missiles I have on the medium mounts add a heavy punch to the hull & modules once that weaker shield on the FAS goes down.
There are also a few things the stats don't take into account, like ramming.
Well...stats can give you an idea of how effective ramming will be, if you consider thrust, velocity, mass, and shield strength, but I will agree it's not something immediately accountable for in the heat of combat.
The FAS is just more effective in combat hands down (1v1 because the Python can function as a light tank or sniper in a wing)
I think it honestly depends on the variables at play!

Anyway, I think we've both stated our position solidly. If anyone else wants to interject on their experiences between FAS and Python, please do. The context is that I'm of the view that an Elite FAS NPC (being a tried and true dedicated combat ship known as one of the most effective in PVP) should be a massive, if not overwhelming, threat to any player Python and even more so to one set up as a smuggling ship. For comparison, this is what I'm running delivery missions with and now defeating dedicated elite NPC FASs, FDLs, Clippers and even the odd Anaconda:
https://coriolis.io/outfit/python/2...j4yoo.IwBj4yNNSA==?bn=Nemesis (in transition)
When I say I'm not that good and then mention I can take those on, my point is that there is something off with the difficulty settings. I KNOW that I'm at best competent because I do get to practice some PVP with friends (and occasionally not friends) and the better ones will own me every time all else being equal so I'm not theorycrafting. I'm posting an observation based on experience and providing context so you can come to your own conclusions.

PvP competency and PvE competency are always going to be two very different things, though - there's just any number of variables that are not compatible between the two. Being bested in PvP may not mean you're bad overall, nor that you're incompetent in the slightest with PvE.

I will admit, I think the AI doesn't seem to fly FDLs as well as they ought to...but that's subject to being, well, subjective.

As to your loadout, it's very similar to my own multirole Python...military bulkheads, A-grade equipment, seeker missiles, the same utility slots, and you have an additional HRP (I have a 5A SCB instead).

We're both basically flying with top-of-the-line equipment in one of the finest ships in the game, and the biggest that can land on any medium pad.

So I still say it makes me wonder greatly why you still believe you should be inadequate to the task of defending yourself against a FAS, as you're not an inadequate pilot and you have certainly prepared yourself with proper equipment.
 
Well, this depends. If you focus on fixed weaponry, then perhaps. But with gimballed & turreted weaponry, that's not the whole case. And your survivability goes up exponentially if you trade off maneuverability for being bigger and fatter.
Mobility does grant you higher freedom in choosing your engagement, of course, but that's where I find the "mass lock factor" to be a real clever addition...otherwise smaller ships would, indeed, dominate most combat activities without much hassle.


Well, if the python has only fixed/gimballed weaponry, then this is true - this is exactly what I was struggling with after 2.1.
But then I put a pair of turrets on the two topside large weapon mounts...and that's been quite effective, especially with burst lasers (they tend to 'miss' less due to chaff or maneuvering, I find) and in combination with flying in reverse or doing the boost + FA/off maneuver. The seeker missiles I have on the medium mounts add a heavy punch to the hull & modules once that weaker shield on the FAS goes down.
Well...stats can give you an idea of how effective ramming will be, if you consider thrust, velocity, mass, and shield strength, but I will agree it's not something immediately accountable for in the heat of combat.
I think it honestly depends on the variables at play!



PvP competency and PvE competency are always going to be two very different things, though - there's just any number of variables that are not compatible between the two. Being bested in PvP may not mean you're bad overall, nor that you're incompetent in the slightest with PvE.

I will admit, I think the AI doesn't seem to fly FDLs as well as they ought to...but that's subject to being, well, subjective.

As to your loadout, it's very similar to my own multirole Python...military bulkheads, A-grade equipment, seeker missiles, the same utility slots, and you have an additional HRP (I have a 5A SCB instead).

We're both basically flying with top-of-the-line equipment in one of the finest ships in the game, and the biggest that can land on any medium pad.

So I still say it makes me wonder greatly why you still believe you should be inadequate to the task of defending yourself against a FAS, as you're not an inadequate pilot and you have certainly prepared yourself with proper equipment.
Curious. You mention use of large beam turrets on the Python. I tried that way back when but found the accuracy very bad. Has it improved lately? That would certainly make a difference vs most ships and yeah, I'll agree about PVP vs pve. Actually, that may be part of our contention. I feel that at least the elite NPC (and perhaps even the "deadly" ones) should resemble high level PVP players in both load out and general behaviour.
 
Curious. You mention use of large beam turrets on the Python. I tried that way back when but found the accuracy very bad. Has it improved lately? That would certainly make a difference vs most ships and yeah, I'll agree about PVP vs pve. Actually, that may be part of our contention. I feel that at least the elite NPC (and perhaps even the "deadly" ones) should resemble high level PVP players in both load out and general behaviour.

Did I type beam? If so that's a mistake, burst turrets, definitely not beam. It'd need a bigger distributor to handle a pair of beam turrets! (unless I quit using the other 3 hardpoints...) Plus, yeah, the accuracy for beam turrets when chaff is present is sort of hilarious to witness.

I did see something in the patch notes about turrets having more accurate tracking the more you can hold the target "in place" for them, relative to your ship.

I don't like the idea of equating PvE with PvP...I feel like if PvE opponents were geared to feel like "high level PVP players", it would feel like being ganked. There's just so many differences between an AI that presents a challenging target that shoots back, vs. fighting another player trying to turn you into that target. (And oh how I loathe it when they can do it through the easiest cop-out methods, like gold ammo on World of Tanks or the superquirks & strike consumables in MWO....)

Now, if it's a challenge that you have to go and seek out as opposed to one that comes to you whether you like it or not? Then I have no complaint.
 
Last edited:
Did I type beam? If so that's a mistake, burst turrets, definitely not beam. It'd need a bigger distributor to handle a pair of beam turrets! (unless I quit using the other 3 hardpoints...) Plus, yeah, the accuracy for beam turrets when chaff is present is sort of hilarious to witness.

I did see something in the patch notes about turrets having more accurate tracking the more you can hold the target "in place" for them, relative to your ship.

I don't like the idea of equating PvE with PvP...I feel like if PvE opponents were geared to feel like "high level PVP players", it would feel like being ganked. There's just so many differences between an AI that presents a challenging target that shoots back, vs. fighting another player trying to turn you into that target. (And oh how I loathe it when they can do it through the easiest cop-out methods, like gold ammo on World of Tanks or the superquirks & strike consumables in MWO....)

Now, if it's a challenge that you have to go and seek out as opposed to one that comes to you whether you like it or not? Then I have no complaint.
Nah, you said burst, I just mistyped. Still, that's good to know. I may consider turrets on my Python again if that's the case, but then I'll do what I used to and put both on the same side (one medium and one large) and likely make them pulses or a L pulse and a med burst (They keep opponent on their toes and don't give shields a chance to recharge but also don't fully drain my power or generate too much heat). The reason I like the idea of deadly and Elite NPCs being similar to high level PVP is because I like to bring my builds together. For a long time now I generally view the NPCs with disdain (because I have to come up with entirely different builds and certain weapons are pointless because you do much better not wasting ammo etc) and only have any respect for the hollow boxes. As for running into them all the time, sure, I hear you. That's why they'd be mostly seen in Elite or deadly ranked missions and low sec regions... Mostly.
 
The main problem with the "update" was it made all those overland "orcs," "boars," and "bandits" into Raid Bosses. Certainly a challenge, but only to those who were vastly kitted out or who have great skill/experience. Everyone else gets wiped out if they try to leave town.

Amen, amen.
 
We need a new mode ''open-realistic''

Well, if any "realism" can be applied to a computer game, then realistically there wouldn't be hordes and hordes of Elite combat pilots in it, being mostly empty space with certain well-traveled shipping lanes, nor any trade after a few chronos of "insane" combat pilots had fully disrupted the trade lanes, which would stultify the entire civilization and it would come apart like Empires before & after have done (galactic & terrestrial) and the Bubble would be thrown into a Dark Age that might take millennia to undo.
 
Well, if any "realism" can be applied to a computer game, then realistically there wouldn't be hordes and hordes of Elite combat pilots in it, being mostly empty space with certain well-traveled shipping lanes, nor any trade after a few chronos of "insane" combat pilots had fully disrupted the trade lanes, which would stultify the entire civilization and it would come apart like Empires before & after have done (galactic & terrestrial) and the Bubble would be thrown into a Dark Age that might take millennia to undo.
My point was realism as in skill is based on the NPC itself and not the player.
An elite is an elite , a harmless is harmless , not everything is ballanced around the player.

But the elite universe is set in a dark age anyway , a traders life only last about a few hours in lore
 
Well, if so this will allow me to keep playing. Good to hear.
(actually, I did some mining tonight without problems)

To me, the interdictions from non-mission, random ships are like the overland bad guys in most MMOs. They're not MEANT to be a real threat, or even a real challenge. They're more or less a time sink, a way to get loot (whatever form that might take, be it cargo, rep, or what have you). The main problem with the "update" was it made all those overland "orcs," "boars," and "bandits" into Raid Bosses. Certainly a challenge, but only to those who were vastly kitted out or who have great skill/experience. Everyone else gets wiped out if they try to leave town. The real threats should be restricted to actual missions or specific locales.

Thus, I'm glad they turned it back to "normal."
Amen, amen.
I had no problems in 2.1.02 in a combat-kitted Vulture. The problem? I don't want to do combat!

I'm glad people who are doing combat and/or have the money for Anacondas, Corvettes and Cutters loved 2.1.02. I'm glad 2.1.03 got rid of the constant DDE (Dangerous, Deadly, Elite) interdictions for those of us in lower ships, trying to do things other than combat, even though we kit-balance as best as we can for self-defense. I so got tired of living through 1 battle, whether I fought or ran, only to die again before I could get to a station.
 
Last edited:
a traders life only last about a few hours in lore

Dude, what? What kinda lore is that?

There's no sane human being who would do trading at all if that were the case, I don't care how willing any might be to take risks.
Elite would cease to exist if that were the case, every human settlement would go back to the Stone Age and we'd have something going on along the lines of Warhammer: 40K or the "dark ages" of Mechwarrior 'lore'.
 
Back
Top Bottom