Autocannons as a replacement for Class 3-4 multicannons

[Star-Hunter]

7




whatever you say... until this game actually puts up a public access stats site .....to show player account stats .. I'll believe the moon is really Elvis in disguise first



trying to sneak autocannons in by limiting it to burst size... is just trying to sneak the unbalanced weapon back in .... C3 Pulses will be just fine for now or fit C2 autocannons

I still oppose the motion ... by the lack of answers in here... I'd say most others don't really care that much either

Have a wonderful day ..........

Very nice personal attack.
That said i still dont understand why would my flight record matter for a weapons proposal.

Additionally, based on your reply i believe you do not know the difference between an autocannon and a multicannon. So arguing weapon balance would be mute.

Nice travels CMDR

 

[Star-Hunter]

Hello Commander Star-Hunter!

Just wanted to say I like this concept.

A light cannon, something between normal cannons and multi-cannons. Perhaps a kinetic gun that feels a little like the Flak 38 (I think), that I remember having such an impact in Saving Private Ryan (as in sounds and fire rate, rather than the horrific results).

No promises or ETA, but I think there's room for a weapon like this.

thank you for the reply, what i imagine the Autocannon firing would feel like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni83_Hx7nYQ&list=PLiikB7hxf9y9rudVKnNN_Jny6QFC4gleK&index=12

naturally burst firing rates are up to you developers, what it needs for balance

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flak 88

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_Flak_18/36/37/41

the 88 was not an autocannon. its a single shot AA/AT cannon

basically the regular cannon in game

 

[bossbrigand]

7




whatever you say... until this game actually puts up a public access stats site .....to show player account stats .. I'll believe the moon is really Elvis in disguise first



trying to sneak autocannons in by limiting it to burst size... is just trying to sneak the unbalanced weapon back in .... C3 Pulses will be just fine for now or fit C2 autocannons

I still oppose the motion ... by the lack of answers in here... I'd say most others don't really care that much either

Have a wonderful day ..........

Can you be any more passive aggressive?

 

[ME-tan]

Wooooow, someone is a LITTLE salty about the Vulture, aren't they?

And yeah OP, the game definitely needs some more variety for the larger hardpoints.

 

[bossbrigand]

flak 88

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_Flak_18/36/37/41

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_cm_Flak_30/38/Flakvierling

I think he was talking about this. There was a quad mount of this on a tank called Wirbelwind. That's something I'd like to see on a class 3 hardpoint - capable of overwhelming shields with sheer volume of fire and doing modest damage to armor - a middle ground to the situation where lasers do lots of damage to shields but little to armor and multicannons do lots of damage to armor but little to shields.

 

[msyblade]

No gimbals or turrets, only 1.5k range, Not a full class up (in quality), fits a 3, but it's really a 2.5ish) and you got yourself a deal.

 

[Shyeer Alvarin]

Autocannons bring me back to the Mechwarrior methods with AC-5/10/15/20 variants. Middling firing rate between bursts, high thermal buildup, massive recoil, and respectable damage If you land the full burst for the variant.

If the AC-5 were introduced, 5 round burst in .5-1 second with a .5-1 second delay between bursts gives it a comparable delay to the burst laser while maintaining the higher overall rate of fire of a projectile weapon. Since the burst can't be stopped, it makes it a weapon you want to be sure is going to stay on target with limited effectiveness with subsystem targeting.

Add in a slower tracking mechanism to reduce effectiveness on smaller craft with the gimbal/turret variants to balance out the damage output between large and small targets due to "recoil" and you have a moderately balance weapon system in terms of damage output, rate of fire, and tracking effectiveness.

The alternative is a fully automatic cannon that fires 3-4 rounds per second with slightly lower damage than the burst variant while maintaining projectile superiority vs Hull and greater accuracy.

 

[Star-Hunter]

Multi mount would be overkill and would defeat the purpose of burst fire.

you could look at it as a hybrid between a cannon and a flak-cannon:
medium range, not very precise (no sniping of modules, but precise enough to have a chance to repeatedly hit medium sized ships)

because of this, fixed mounts should get magazine reload buff rather than accuracy increase

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander Star-Hunter!

I agree, the Bofor appears to look/sound like a larger version of the Flak 38 and seems to retain a similar fire rate. Possibly we'd want to go for something with a slightly slower fire rate, but increased/variable burst length.

For me I think there's something fundamentally frightening about a steady, drum-beat fire rate, especially if the burst is long enough to make it sound like doom is inevitable.

 

[ShakeyJim]

+1 for 30mm cannon ! burst mode was a beast when i used to fire them in the forces

 

[Soda Popinski]

Autocannons bring me back to the Mechwarrior methods with AC-5/10/15/20 variants. Middling firing rate between bursts, high thermal buildup, massive recoil, and respectable damage If you land the full burst for the variant.

Now that you mention it, it would be interesting to have recoil in the flight model. I was envisioning having a Beam on the Right and a Bofors on the Left. Each shot of the Bofors would yaw me to port, requiring rudder compensation.

 

[Star-Hunter]

Autocannons bring me back to the Mechwarrior methods with AC-5/10/15/20 variants. Middling firing rate between bursts, high thermal buildup, massive recoil, and respectable damage If you land the full burst for the variant.

If the AC-5 were introduced, 5 round burst in .5-1 second with a .5-1 second delay between bursts gives it a comparable delay to the burst laser while maintaining the higher overall rate of fire of a projectile weapon. Since the burst can't be stopped, it makes it a weapon you want to be sure is going to stay on target with limited effectiveness with subsystem targeting.

Add in a slower tracking mechanism to reduce effectiveness on smaller craft with the gimbal/turret variants to balance out the damage output between large and small targets due to "recoil" and you have a moderately balance weapon system in terms of damage output, rate of fire, and tracking effectiveness.

The alternative is a fully automatic cannon that fires 3-4 rounds per second with slightly lower damage than the burst variant while maintaining projectile superiority vs Hull and greater accuracy.

Im not that familiar with MWO, but it sounds very similar to what i proposed.
However, the projectile spread of the autocannon should prevent module targeting as to not make cannons irrelevant
and muzzle velocity should be balanced so fighters can still hope to dodge them (although should require exceptional skills to dodge all projectiles of a burst, IF all projectiles were on target).

A fully automatic cannon at those calibers would not be "Realistic" and would be hard to balance

 

[Kaeldian]

Just to make sure I'm picturing the same thing... are we referring to cannons tied together in a quad like the Quad Halftrack or the Wirbilwind? If not, consider it, because that as my 3 and 4 hardpoints would be freakin' awesome!

--EDIT--

Tossing in the Wirbelwind link for those not familiar with it. It used 2cm Flak 38's in a quad on the chassis of a Panzer 4 (also called the Flakpanzer IV)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirbelwind

 

[Shanaeri]

Hello Commander Star-Hunter!

I agree, the Bofor appears to look/sound like a larger version of the Flak 38 and seems to retain a similar fire rate. Possibly we'd want to go for something with a slightly slower fire rate, but increased/variable burst length.

For me I think there's something fundamentally frightening about a steady, drum-beat fire rate, especially if the burst is long enough to make it sound like doom is inevitable.

I like this idea. I've always seen the C2 multi-cannon as the equivalent of the modern 20mm Vulcan. There's certainly room for something like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADEN_cannon or something that looks like the mean end of the ZSU-23


If we are comparing modern weapons, then I guess 23mm(as above) is about the right size. It has more punch than the 20mm but it's not an anti-tank gun. I am just imagining the 4 of those on a gimball mount... xD

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander Kaeldian!

The only issue with a multiple barrel/weapon setup up is that I suspect the idea behind it would be to effectively increase the fire rate of the platform, which would possibly make the weapon more comparable to a very large multi-cannon.

What I find attractive about these weapons is that they potentially fit a role between cannons and multi-cannons and could feel reasonable different to both.

Of course, I've no problem with a weapon that happens to feature multiple barrels, as long as the overall fire rate could retain a paced, signature "boom, boom, boom, boom" feel.

 

[Doctor Axel]

Now that you mention it, it would be interesting to have recoil in the flight model. I was envisioning having a Beam on the Right and a Bofors on the Left. Each shot of the Bofors would yaw me to port, requiring rudder compensation.

It actually struck me immediately that there is neither recoil nor impulse from kinetic weapons. Firing a cannon should give a pretty substantial push, as should getting struck by a cannon slug.

If I'm in a Derpwinder and I get broadsided by a Class 3 cannon, I should spin like Darth Vader off in some random direction. =P

 

[Monk]

Hello Commander Kaeldian!

The only issue with a multiple barrel/weapon setup up is that I suspect the idea behind it would be to effectively increase the fire rate of the platform, which would possibly make the weapon more comparable to a very large multi-cannon.

What I find attractive about these weapons is that they potentially fit a role between cannons and multi-cannons and could feel reasonable different to both.

Of course, I've no problem with a weapon that happens to feature multiple barrels, as long as the overall fire rate could retain a paced, signature "boom, boom, boom, boom" feel.

I think two barrels would be sufficiently evil looking

 

[bossbrigand]

Hello Commander Kaeldian!

The only issue with a multiple barrel/weapon setup up is that I suspect the idea behind it would be to effectively increase the fire rate of the platform, which would possibly make the weapon more comparable to a very large multi-cannon.

What I find attractive about these weapons is that they potentially fit a role between cannons and multi-cannons and could feel reasonable different to both.

Of course, I've no problem with a weapon that happens to feature multiple barrels, as long as the overall fire rate could retain a paced, signature "boom, boom, boom, boom" feel.

The main reason behind a quad setup is sustained fire as an individual barrel does not heat up as fast while maintaining roughly the same rate of fire (as a single barrel) from the system, so you could pace it like that. The inherent size of the multi-barreled system would justify its requirement for a large hardpoint.

If you have a single barrel system that fires at 1000 RPM, a 4 barrel system wherein each barrel fires at 250 RPM would have the same ROF as far as the target is concerned while taking 4 times longer to overheat.

By the way, are kinetic weapons in Elite meant to be caseless? I always thought spent shells rolling off the hull in zero G would be a cool effect.

 

[Star-Hunter]

Hello Commander Star-Hunter!

I agree, the Bofor appears to look/sound like a larger version of the Flak 38 and seems to retain a similar fire rate. Possibly we'd want to go for something with a slightly slower fire rate, but increased/variable burst length.

For me I think there's something fundamentally frightening about a steady, drum-beat fire rate, especially if the burst is long enough to make it sound like doom is inevitable.

I agree, but in my opinion Total/Potential Burst damage and projectile spread are the two main properties that need to be balanced for this to be viable
and to not make other weapons irrelevant (esp cannon)
Large hard points lack medium range weapons that are effective against armor and medium fighters

i hope i managed to explain my proposal suficiently

Greetings

 

[Kaeldian]

Hi Sandro

I appreciate the feedback.

I'm not looking for multicannon fire rate, that sort of defeats the purpose of finding a faster firing cannon for the slots without actually getting into the scaling issue previously had with the multiguns. I'm thinking something more along the lines of "Thud thud thud" as you stated. Quads would be cool, but it can probably be accomplished and more visually seamless if we were talking a pair of cannons instead (quads probably fit visually better on something like a capital ship rather than the smaller stuff we're using anyway).