Automatic speed control in Supercruise is bad?
- Thread starter Arthur Z.
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Wow, so many people just fail to grasp what the OP is talking about. And these are old-timers, as far as I can see.
The OP likely knows how the basics of navigating CS work (the old 0:06 seconds and whatnots). No, the point here is that the game has artificial "time wasters", basically. When flying away from any stellar bodies, your ship is capable of very fast acceleration and deceleration... yet the super-futuristic computer cannot take advantage of that and instead has you decelerate slooooowly for... reasons. (Personally I've resorted to deselecting the UUS / location I'm flying to and eyeballing it, activating the "assisted slow-mode" when I'm at 1Ls distance...)
I'd argue that the mechanics of the SC UI in general are confusing and unhelpful. The time-to-target being stuck at 0:06 makes sense only if you assume the on-board computer has less power than a pocket calculator. The "SLOW DOWN" message usually comes up way too late, or comes up in moments where it doesn't mean what you think it means (i.e. you fly-by a stellar body when going at max speed to a more distant location). The fact that all vehicles, regardless of size and FSD have the same acceleration / deceleration mechanics makes flying long distances utterly BORING, as NOTHING will ever happen when flying 300k Ls (something can happen near the start or the end of that journey, but you might as well go make tea in the interim and we really should get a "jump to star" option).
In general the game is notorious for wasting a players time with absolutely arbitrary bull poo, and I long for a "Quality of Life update" getting rid of these common grievances...
The OP likely knows how the basics of navigating CS work (the old 0:06 seconds and whatnots). No, the point here is that the game has artificial "time wasters", basically. When flying away from any stellar bodies, your ship is capable of very fast acceleration and deceleration... yet the super-futuristic computer cannot take advantage of that and instead has you decelerate slooooowly for... reasons. (Personally I've resorted to deselecting the UUS / location I'm flying to and eyeballing it, activating the "assisted slow-mode" when I'm at 1Ls distance...)
I'd argue that the mechanics of the SC UI in general are confusing and unhelpful. The time-to-target being stuck at 0:06 makes sense only if you assume the on-board computer has less power than a pocket calculator. The "SLOW DOWN" message usually comes up way too late, or comes up in moments where it doesn't mean what you think it means (i.e. you fly-by a stellar body when going at max speed to a more distant location). The fact that all vehicles, regardless of size and FSD have the same acceleration / deceleration mechanics makes flying long distances utterly BORING, as NOTHING will ever happen when flying 300k Ls (something can happen near the start or the end of that journey, but you might as well go make tea in the interim and we really should get a "jump to star" option).
In general the game is notorious for wasting a players time with absolutely arbitrary bull poo, and I long for a "Quality of Life update" getting rid of these common grievances...
Yes OP, this mechanic doesn't make sense.
Speed and acceleration in supercruise seems to be implemented in a very simplistic way, leading to some strange artifacts like what you describe.
Essentially your acceleration (and deceleration) is always rougly 1/10 of your top speed. Top speed is limited by nearby stars or planets, AND your selected target. Speed limit dependent on target makes some sense as others have pointed out, otherwise it would be almost impossible to approach an USS or space station far from the nearest planets. But the fact that a ship's computer artificially limits deceleration as well is just nonsensical.
Also, you may notice that all ships fly at the same speed, all stars limit your speed exactly the same way regardless of their mass etc. - looks like the simplest possible implementation, still here with us years after release.
Speed and acceleration in supercruise seems to be implemented in a very simplistic way, leading to some strange artifacts like what you describe.
Essentially your acceleration (and deceleration) is always rougly 1/10 of your top speed. Top speed is limited by nearby stars or planets, AND your selected target. Speed limit dependent on target makes some sense as others have pointed out, otherwise it would be almost impossible to approach an USS or space station far from the nearest planets. But the fact that a ship's computer artificially limits deceleration as well is just nonsensical.
Also, you may notice that all ships fly at the same speed, all stars limit your speed exactly the same way regardless of their mass etc. - looks like the simplest possible implementation, still here with us years after release.
The very last moments when approaching X target and preparing to Low Wake can be very tedious especially if there's someone about to interdict you. I hate the rubber band effect so much when you get sent back from your X target even if you throttle down during an interdiction. For instance, if a station is only MM's away, but you get interdicted and submit, you get sent back like 40 LS. Now, what kind of logic is that? After that you Low Wake back to Supercruise, and the odds of repeating the same procedure with the same pursuers are very high.
So, because time is money, and to some people expensive ship insurances, I've developed a strategy long ago. I'm sure this is no new trick to some folks, but I can't see it often being utilized. I don't know if it's because either people don't understand the alignment / speed / distance box, or they just don't care.
My tip is to screw the auto throttle, and just LAY ON IT the very moment when your velocity matches the maximum blue zone's edge. In OP's case the maximum Low Wake velocity was (11.9 m/s) so, the drop out is possible at 11.9 m/s. You don't need the auto throttle to slow it down to 200 km/s, because if you let it, sometimes the approach to X and Y can take up to 1 minute depending on the situation. You can cut over 80% of the waiting time by just going full throttle!
So, because time is money, and to some people expensive ship insurances, I've developed a strategy long ago. I'm sure this is no new trick to some folks, but I can't see it often being utilized. I don't know if it's because either people don't understand the alignment / speed / distance box, or they just don't care.
My tip is to screw the auto throttle, and just LAY ON IT the very moment when your velocity matches the maximum blue zone's edge. In OP's case the maximum Low Wake velocity was (11.9 m/s) so, the drop out is possible at 11.9 m/s. You don't need the auto throttle to slow it down to 200 km/s, because if you let it, sometimes the approach to X and Y can take up to 1 minute depending on the situation. You can cut over 80% of the waiting time by just going full throttle!
Literally made me laugh during breakfast, thanks!
Well, if we're talking about stellar bodies, then this slow down makes sense because gravity does not let you change your speed.
True, but there is also a reason for this. FSD creates a bubble of local spacetime around your ship. Basically your ship is standing still in that bubble. The way you move around is by moving this bubble of local spacetime through regular space time which most likely has nothing to do with the actual ship.
As others have said, it's largely because otherwise you'd never have the fine throttle control needed to get into drop-out range, so your ship simulates the targeted signal source as having gravity and adjusts your throttle accordingly.
Arguably it doesn't also need to simulate the limitation on your deceleration rate that it actually having gravity would cause, though. De-target to stop is a workaround, of course.
It's possible to reach things with actual gravity a lot faster than that as well. (My hobby is dropping into a system 1000Ls behind someone, and still beating them to the medium pad on the outpost)
If you approach in a curved path, you can keep the throttle a lot higher (100% to about 0:04, then 90% after that, varies a bit depending on target mass and ship agility) and get there quite a bit faster - despite flying a longer path - by loading more of your deceleration into the higher gravity region where deceleration is sharper. (This also works if you run below 0:06 on a signal source)
Similarly a close fly-by of another body near your target can burn off a lot of speed much more efficiently than just slowing down. It's not quite "transfer windows" and "deorbit burns" and all the rest, but it's still more interesting than flying very slowly in a straight line.
What?
I mean... What? I was not talking about flying NEAR a stellar body away from it, I was talking about flying a long distance away from any stellar bodies (i.e. the moment you described; when the ship is capable of very fast acceleration / deceleration with nothing selected)...The point is that to make the game interesting, something has to give. Either remove the arbitrary long distances (jump to star mechanic, PLEASE), or make it interesting by changing things up. Since the latter is unlikely, can we get the former?
I think you need to reread my post, it doesn't make you miss your target if you engage before the minimum computed deceleration range (5 seconds minimum)
If you want more control, fly it manually. This whole thread would be a genuine issue if we couldn't manually take other, as it stands we get the best of both worlds. A smooth predetermined deceleration when we engage it correctly. :Full (more aggressive accel/decel) When we perform the same function manually.
It is what it is..
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And to re-iterate on this, I'd like to remind everyone who was there at that time, how 'fun' the bug was that prevented the acceleration auto-scaling to work on low wakes.
Even with a good throttle it was near impossible to drop into a low wake as you had two speed settings: isthisreallysayingETA2years? and omgwhereditgo.
The only way was to try again and again until, ten minutes later, by some microspasm of your wrist on the trottle, you managed to accelerate by some tiny amount, just enough to get you within a distance manageable at 30km/s.
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Aaaand what are computers for? If you'll instantly overshoot the target if you so much as nudge the throttle too much, then you should probably be able to jump in instantly, no?
Again, I sometimes think the computers on our ships are as powerful as an old-school pocket calculator (which would explain why you need a whole extra class-1 module to let you auto-dock)... Efficient use of the ships acceleration / deceleration in situations like these should not be a problem!
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What many people don't realise is that there are at least 3 different methods to approach a station or USS that are faster than cruising in at the game's 75% speed.
The loop of shame itself is faster 9 times out of 10.
Loop of shame technique (works for anything around a massive body)... Keep full throttle til you see the time go to 4 secs, now throttle all the way back and DESELECT THE target. If you are approaching a station in orbit of a body, aim for the space between the body and the station, you'll go flying through it of course, but once you reach a purpendicular vector to your target you will slow down almost instantly, turn 90-180 degrees toward the station and you should be mere megameters away.
ABS technique (works for any USS, or wake, or object that is not in close proximity to a massive body)...As above, approach full speed, wait til you see the 4 sec mark, throttle all the way back. This time don't deselect the target until the very last second. I usually aim slightly under the uss and keep spamming the select target key. As I fly under the USS, it deselects and I stop instantly, I can get within 1ls from any distance using this method.
The third technique is using a body's gravity well to slow you down as you come in under a planet, but this can severely slow you down if done wrong, so only for the experts.
The loop of shame itself is faster 9 times out of 10.
Loop of shame technique (works for anything around a massive body)... Keep full throttle til you see the time go to 4 secs, now throttle all the way back and DESELECT THE target. If you are approaching a station in orbit of a body, aim for the space between the body and the station, you'll go flying through it of course, but once you reach a purpendicular vector to your target you will slow down almost instantly, turn 90-180 degrees toward the station and you should be mere megameters away.
ABS technique (works for any USS, or wake, or object that is not in close proximity to a massive body)...As above, approach full speed, wait til you see the 4 sec mark, throttle all the way back. This time don't deselect the target until the very last second. I usually aim slightly under the uss and keep spamming the select target key. As I fly under the USS, it deselects and I stop instantly, I can get within 1ls from any distance using this method.
The third technique is using a body's gravity well to slow you down as you come in under a planet, but this can severely slow you down if done wrong, so only for the experts.
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Computers are designed for carrying out instructions, SC logic has been designed to try and maintain a fixed decel rate (7 seconds) As mentioned numerous times it does it job perfectly along as the cmdr uses it as intended, for anything else fly manual.
That's arguing for the disengage constraints to be more permissive, ie shorter travel, but it wouldn't address the Op's point.
But if that were the case, there wouldn't be the possibility for the player to mess up. Look at the OP's example: using the automatic system, he goes a little too fast a little too close to the target, and the automatic system is incapable of compensating for that mistake and slowing down in time. It may go against the OP's wish to get there asap, but it is a good system. A skilled player could disable the automatic system by untargetting the destination to decelerate faster, and quickly retarget it to disengage within constraints.
If the computer were 100% efficient, there would be no need for player input, and no possibility for that input to lead to a suboptimal situation. IE there would be no gameplay.
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What's this "manual" control, is it just deselecting the target?
personally I wish the pips could be used in supercruise to give us more acceleration/deceleration when full pips to engines. That would allow a bit of strategy in SC.
personally I wish the pips could be used in supercruise to give us more acceleration/deceleration when full pips to engines. That would allow a bit of strategy in SC.
I think the OP has a point but there probably wouldn't be too much of an issue if the gameplay was actually considered fun, entertaining and a remarkable way to get to point B. I would prefer that it could be sped a up a bit if the player had to use simple skills similar to the interdiction gameplay (or eg. piloting through a wormhole) . Or that certain model ships had different methods of slowing itself down from SC to the chosen destination. But that is extra dev work and coding.
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If the action required by the player is so simple a computer could do it and there's nothing else beyond that that it removes any and all gameplay... then SOMETHING is seriously wrong with the mechanic in question.
Personally I think the mechanics near stellar bodies are OK - you're not going decelerate any faster anyway, so it works there (I have issues with the UI "slow down" being absolutely pointless at the moment, but that's a different thing). Is it so hard to ask for consistency so that distant USS also follow the same rules (i.e. same or at least similar deceleration with the target selected and not selected)? If it means vastly increasing the drop-in distance, then so be it.
As for messing up: let's be real for a moment here. The SC mechanics are something you can mess up only when you start the game out because the 0:06 seconds being optimal isn't something the game ever teaches you (which is also pretty bad, but that's a different point) and, realistically, the cases where you miss it are because you were so bored with the travel that you started doing other things (alt-tab, podcasts, YouTube, other in-game tomfoolery which takes your focus away), not due to lack of skills. So... why have this mechanic at all?
Yes, once you think about it, the game SHOULD have an auto-pilot, at least for SC.
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The game should definitely have an SC autopilot. Add more functionality to the planning side of things, give us actual ETA's based on waypoints, so much they could do with the system. Anything would be better than second rule, nudge stick every now and then.
The final approach phase of SC is fine, and could be kept manual.
So why doesnt it use all ressources it got to maintain the decel rate should you already be too fast (for the current one)?
Computer acts like it got a extra rule to this: Using a maximum of 20% of the braking capability.
And that, frankly, is goddamn nonsense.
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Mate, I could give you examples of complex automation on multi million $ aircraft that does things that 'Seem like nonsense' The Autothrottle logic does some crazy things on certain Boeings. Bottom line it was programmed to do a job, if used correctly if carries out the intended function.
You have a few choices, make a suggestion in the relevant forum, design your own game, hope the devs give us modding access to the game.. Or just get on it with it and use the modes as intended, the bulk of us have done the latter for 4 years.. The OP has a point, but it really isn't a big deal.
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