Ships Bang!

[CmdrBulldog]

It is designed to give the illusion of physical reality for believability. I detest metagame designs that are made for full in game effectiveness with no sense of compromise and aesthetics.

The Python has advantages due to better power plant / internals = more shield cells, but even with lower firepower the FdL is a better mover and has good base shields. With shield cells out of the question (or suitably 'changed') would you still maintain that the Python has the advantage just due to firepower?

Yes. Also because when the FDL was first released I was in love with it. It seemed like the ideal bounty hunting ship and alot of us in Mobius were touting it as a better bounty hunter than any other ship at the time. We also were thinking that the handling compared to the Python was insanely good, maybe even as good as the Viper.

But after months of testing in both one on one pvp battles and in PVE, the handling ended up being about the same as the Asp, but with only slightly better shields, 151MJ versus 272MJ base respectively. The tests we ran in Python VS FDL handling ended up being marginal. The FDL cannot (as we once thought) get around the back side of a facing python regardless of flight tactics, whereas the Viper (post Python nerf) is easily able to out-maneuver the Python. We originally thought that the FDL could stay on the rear end of a Python at all times, but this ended up not being the case.

These facts combined with the Python ability to run A0 shield boosters in large amounts without having power issues allows the ship to never have to use shield cell banks even when head to head with FDL. The Huge plasma accelerator is easily avoidable by the Python assuming the Python pilot has decent flight skills, so we eliminate the fear of getting hit with huge plasma (which would turn the tide vs Python in a long fight). The third issue is that the Python has such a huge advantage power wise that you can literally lay into an FDL during the entire fight without running out of power, even with three large gimballed weapons firing continuously, which means the FDL pilot has a hard time just trying to keep shields up, let alone going on the offensive again. It becomes a system power balancing act for the FDL pilot, wheeas the Python pilot simply puts all pips to weapons and unloads.

Other advantages of the Python such as jump distance, more internal and hardpoint placements, and the lack of need for upgraded armor panels, not to mention the trading ability, still puts the Python at an clear advantage all around.

The last statement pains me because I genuinely like the FDL design and sound, and aesthetics versus the Python, but in outright battle performance, it just does not compare. According to FD, it is supposed to be the Pythons brother, born from the same pedigree as the Python.

But don't take my word for it. Run the tests yourself as well using standard scientific method. Obtaining a baseline of firepower and handling using multiple pilots with differing flying skills head to head. Then using the same sets weapons loadout on both ships, always making and apples to apples comparison, then changing loadouts to see if you can gain an advantage in each fight with the FDL.

 

[CmdrBulldog]

You can only kill CMDRs that let you kill them by choosing not to run away. For PvP it is only good against other anacondas. I'm not talking about dueling to the death I'm talking about actual encounters.
Even for PvE it's only good for tanking SSS or CZs by yourself. Everything else can be done more efficiently in a less expensive, faster ship.
Good trade ship though.

You are correct for some ships against the Anaconda, it is very slow, and can be outrun by any ship in the game (excluding Type 9). I have noticed on small ships though they have a hard time escaping before the massive firepower had already disabled them, or destroyed them. The ones that do get away (and it does happen as you say) usually are very high on damage and limping away.

If you use other less common weapons on the Conda, it can be quite interesting and in some cases a single volley can destroy most small ships before they can run. But this was before weapon changes and small nerfs back in the day (2014 and early 2015). The Vulture and Courier with shield boosters are a bit more stout however at 400+ MJ of shields.

Below is an example or two:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT9mYCbBBgg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoWNisYorR4

P.S. All of this is highly subjective to flight skill. With decent flight skills I've been able to kill player Pythons in a Sidewinder. I've also been able to stay in a conflict zone almost indefinitely in a Hauler with a single small pulse laser, and I am not the best pilot in the game (not nearly as good as the Mercenaries of Mikunn and others). So given good flight skill you can kill literally in ship in the game with any other ship in the game, which is part of why the game is so good combat wise, you can trade ship quality and size for flight skill and still win against most players and NPC's. It just takes practice.

 

[CyberGrim]

I still think it boils down too the current set up of the python and anaconda. If you take these 2 out of the picture I think that combat ships are well balanced. The FDS, FGS, FAS, viper, fer-der- lance, vulture and imperial courier all have to make choices, balancing fire power vs shields vs boasters vs SCB vs internals. I think FD have a good balance there. The problem arises when you throw the python and now the anaconda (vers the corvette) in. These are multi rolled but out do all combat based ships.
What I think needs to happen is for both of these ships is to have their power core down graded one level. Then you would have to make choices like the current combat ships.

 

[CmdrBulldog]

I still think it boils down too the current set up of the python and anaconda. If you take these 2 out of the picture I think that combat ships are well balanced. The FDS, FGS, FAS, viper, fer-der- lance, vulture and imperial courier all have to make choices, balancing fire power vs shields vs boasters vs SCB vs internals. I think FD have a good balance there. The problem arises when you throw the python and now the anaconda (vers the corvette) in. These are multi rolled but out do all combat based ships.
What I think needs to happen is for both of these ships is to have their power core down graded one level. Then you would have to make choices like the current combat ships.

FD has always had it in their minds that if it's a pure combat ship, it needs to be gimped on power (the first good example of this was the Viper). More recently with the FDL, it needs to be both gimped on power and on loadout. So instead of just sticking to what all other ship designs (such as the ASP, which was a military ship turned explorer according to the lore, and has never had power issues), they have it in their minds that pure combat ships need to be gimped on power at least, and sometimes both power and hardpoints.

If they would just make the pure combat ships with zero cargo, but loads of power, and even better load-outs than the multi-use ships, then we would be fine. But as it stands the FDL should have one higher class of reactor, and really the Vulture could as well, although it's less of an issue with the Vulture. If you start nerfing ships more than they already have, then we get even more of a bleed off of players than we do now (the churn rate is already high if you haven't noticed).

Since no graphic changes need to take place in order to place a higher class reactor, then it's a simple change really, and doesn't really affect anything else in the game except outfitting, and the fact that more people would fly the FDL than they do now.

As for the Corvette. It should be a massive gunboat with loads of power (two class 6 or 7 slots would be fine) and 10 to 12 guns, easily beating up Anaconda's, but also have almost no cargo, and horrible handling because of the mass. The Imperial clipper could also follow a similar design thereby allowing the two to be direct competitors, and unique classes in and of themselves.

My two pennies.

 

[GJ51]

So, in this week's newsletter we got a peek of the Fed Corvette... With 2small, 2 medium, 1 large and

Spoiler

2 huge hard points!!

How do you think Fdev are going to balance this monster?

They'll probably require that you put the same class weapons on the 2 huge hard points so that it doesn't lean to one side...

 

[Poseidal]

Yes. Also because when the FDL was first released I was in love with it. It seemed like the ideal bounty hunting ship and alot of us in Mobius were touting it as a better bounty hunter than any other ship at the time. We also were thinking that the handling compared to the Python was insanely good, maybe even as good as the Viper.

But after months of testing in both one on one pvp battles and in PVE, the handling ended up being about the same as the Asp, but with only slightly better shields, 151MJ versus 272MJ base respectively. The tests we ran in Python VS FDL handling ended up being marginal. The FDL cannot (as we once thought) get around the back side of a facing python regardless of flight tactics, whereas the Viper (post Python nerf) is easily able to out-maneuver the Python. We originally thought that the FDL could stay on the rear end of a Python at all times, but this ended up not being the case.

These facts combined with the Python ability to run A0 shield boosters in large amounts without having power issues allows the ship to never have to use shield cell banks even when head to head with FDL. The Huge plasma accelerator is easily avoidable by the Python assuming the Python pilot has decent flight skills, so we eliminate the fear of getting hit with huge plasma (which would turn the tide vs Python in a long fight). The third issue is that the Python has such a huge advantage power wise that you can literally lay into an FDL during the entire fight without running out of power, even with three large gimballed weapons firing continuously, which means the FDL pilot has a hard time just trying to keep shields up, let alone going on the offensive again. It becomes a system power balancing act for the FDL pilot, wheeas the Python pilot simply puts all pips to weapons and unloads.

Other advantages of the Python such as jump distance, more internal and hardpoint placements, and the lack of need for upgraded armor panels, not to mention the trading ability, still puts the Python at an clear advantage all around.

The last statement pains me because I genuinely like the FDL design and sound, and aesthetics versus the Python, but in outright battle performance, it just does not compare. According to FD, it is supposed to be the Pythons brother, born from the same pedigree as the Python.

But don't take my word for it. Run the tests yourself as well using standard scientific method. Obtaining a baseline of firepower and handling using multiple pilots with differing flying skills head to head. Then using the same sets weapons loadout on both ships, always making and apples to apples comparison, then changing loadouts to see if you can gain an advantage in each fight with the FDL.

I may try it sometime, though I would run a class 3 laser in the class 4 slot as I don't think (when I actually used it in anger against players) the 4PA is effective against humans as the hitrate isn't good, and even if it were, it still does less shield DPS than the Class 3 beam (and isn't as energy efficient as the Pulse).

Sounds like the Python needs a second wave of nerfs. The fact it has that, and 284 possible cargo space (with shields) compounds the issue.

 

[CmdrBulldog]

I may try it sometime, though I would run a class 3 laser in the class 4 slot as I don't think (when I actually used it in anger against players) the 4PA is effective against humans as the hitrate isn't good, and even if it were, it still does less shield DPS than the Class 3 beam (and isn't as energy efficient as the Pulse).

Sounds like the Python needs a second wave of nerfs. The fact it has that, and 284 possible cargo space (with shields) compounds the issue.

I would personally much rather see the FDL turned into a fun ship to fly, and bounty hunt in. Simply placing the power plant slot one class higher and adding one large hardpoint is a cure for the ship all around. Then it would still have a handling advantage on the Python, and be more similar in firepower. This is the way it should have been when it was released. But like I said above, FD likes to give you just enough of a bite of cheese to keep you excited about the newly released ship, but not enough excitement to keep you in the game with that ship. It's the way it's always been unfortunately.

I would personally like to know who is in charge of ship technical design (not 3-d models). Whoever they are, they don't know much about what makes a ship fun to fly and fight in. And they certainly don't know how to class a ship based on other ships currently in the game. Unless they are being restricted by the higher ups on how the new ships performance should be, which also does not make much logical sense.

The exception to the above statement is the Imperial Courier and the Vulture. Both of those ships have good enough power, hardpoint placement, and shields to make them really fun to fight in. The FDL was always kind of a gimped odd-ball, but it certainly doesn't need to stay that way.

P.S. If you only take cost of the ship into account then it would explain the gimpyness of the FDL compared to Python, it is quite a bit less expensive than the Python, even though it is roughly the same size. 75Mill for the FDL, and 160Mill for the Python, both with all A-grade and Gimbled pulse, with two AO boosters.

 

[Poseidal]

I would personally much rather see the FDL turned into a fun ship to fly, and bounty hunt in. Simply placing the power plant slot one class higher and adding one large hardpoint is a cure for the ship all around. Then it would still have a handling advantage on the Python, and be more similar in firepower. This is the way it should have been when it was released. But like I said above, FD likes to give you just enough of a bite of cheese to keep you excited about the newly released ship, but not enough excitement to keep you in the game with that ship. It's the way it's always been unfortunately.

I would personally like to know who is in charge of ship technical design (not 3-d models). Whoever they are, they don't know much about what makes a ship fun to fly and fight in. And they certainly don't know how to class a ship based on other ships currently in the game. Unless they are being restricted by the higher ups on how the new ships performance should be, which also does not make much logical sense.

The exception to the above statement is the Imperial Courier and the Vulture. Both of those ships have good enough power, hardpoint placement, and shields to make them really fun to fight in. The FDL was always kind of a gimped odd-ball, but it certainly doesn't need to stay that way.

P.S. If you only take cost of the ship into account then it would explain the gimpyness of the FDL compared to Python, it is quite a bit less expensive than the Python, even though it is roughly the same size. 75Mill for the FDL, and 160Mill for the Python, both with all A-grade and Gimbled pulse, with two AO boosters.

Note: I do not find price a valid point of comparison for 'power' - every ship should have some kind of niche, and the price balance should only really be a factor for trade ships and even then the smaller ones should have some kind of advantages. Also, if you don't A-rate the Python power plant (you don't need to unless you're running Giant Dad shield cells), the price drops way down and is comparable to the FdL and Clipper (and the Clipper does need the A7-shield unlike the A7-powerplant on the Python)

'Fun to fly' is subjective.

FdL I find very fun to fly, even with using the 4PA (and a 3Beam would be more effective). It actually has decent power for what it can do (the 4PA will eat a chunk), so I think what is missing is just tweaks or just the Python is too good.

The Python, even with A-thrusters, I found much more of a drudge to fly. Having the excess power also means it doesn't give you interesting choices. It is possibly a controversial view, but I think the Python design from start to current has been a disaster and one of the worst designed ships in the game, suffering from munchkinism and Tardisisation.

The Courier though, I agree, is a fantastic design for being fun to fly, but still requiring thought to fit. I do wish it could fit a class 4 power distributor though.