Basic questions about HOTAS controls

[DjVortex]

I got an Gladiator NXT Evo right-hand joystick as a gift. I suppose I'll purchase myself a throttle for the left hand. But I have many questions about how exactly one can fluently use these to control the game.

Background: I have played the game for about two years now with a game controller, and it feels extremely fluent to play the game with it, in all three "modes": In ship, in SRV and on foot.

However, the HOTAS setup raises so many questions, especially in that context:

How do you use both primary and secondary fire at the same time? The joystick has two triggers for the index finger (the other trigger even acting as two buttons), but obviously you can't fire both of them at the same time. (I suppose you could use your middle finger and index finger to fire both triggers, but then your grip on the joystick would be uncomfortable because you have to lift your hand and can't rest it on that palm rest at the side.) There's of course also the big red button that you can press with your thumb, which could act as the other fire button, allowing both to be pressed at the same time, but then you lose control of all the other thumb controls (more particularly the analog thumbstick, which I think would be perfect to use for lateral/vertical thrusters). With a game controller this isn't a problem because, rather obviously there's a trigger for each index finger. (In fact, the Xbox One controller is so ingeniously designed that you don't even have to alternate between the triggers and the shoulder buttons, as they can literally be pressed at the same time, as the shoulder buttons are pressable with the side of your index finger, while the finger itself presses the trigger.) I suppose one of the fire buttons could be on the thruster, which I assume solves this dilemma?

Another prominent question is: How do you control an SRV with HOTAS? A game controller is literally made for that purpose and thus is ideal. But with HOTAS...?

Moreover, how do you control on foot? (Again, came controller is ideal for it, but how do you do it with HOTAS?)

(I suppose one could switch between HOTAS and the game controller between these "sub-modes", but that kind of defeats the purpose a bit. There has to be an advantage to HOTAS for it to make sense...)

 

[Alec Turner]

For the general advantage of HOTAS over game controller I think you'll just have to experience it for yourself. There's a reason pilots in real life use joysticks to fly planes and not the equivalent of handheld game controllers, They just feel more natural. One big difference is that you have a much larger range of movement which means you have much finer control. For another I think it's just more immersive to use the same control mechanism that your avatar pilot is using. Imagine the classic movie scene where a plane is diving and the pilot is heaving back on the stick to pull up. Those scenes would have a very different feel if the pilot was gently pushing his thumb on a little controller .

As to the other questions - for SRV I personally use the main stick's twist (yaw) control for steering and the main X and Y axes for pitch and roll when the SRV is in the air. But people vary quite a lot on this one and you'll probably just have to find what works for you. As for on foot ... I'm afraid it's generally a case of taking your hands off the stick and using good old WASD on the keyboard. I remember before Odyssey came out being utterly perplexed about on-foot controls. I NEVER normally take my hands of the HOTAS and the idea of having to switch to the keyboard seemed appallling. But you know what ... it's absolutely fine and going back to WASD felt very natural for a long time PC gamer like me.

Give it a try ... that's a fantastic joystick you've been given (I'm quite jealous) and I think/hope you'll grow to love it.

 

[Shurimal]

How do you use both primary and secondary fire at the same time?

I use the two stage trigger—stage 1 for primary, stage 2 secondary. You have to engage stage 1 before binding stage 2 to secondary, otherwise your bind for will be (Stage1) + (Stage 2) and your primary stops firing when you engage stage 2 to fire secondary. Rapid fire trigger for chaff (push) and heatsinks (pull), pinky button for SCB-s, shoulder button for SFN, left side hat for pips and ECM (press), center hat for menu navigation, right hand hat for cycling through targets (up/down) and subtargets (left/right).

There's of course also the big red button that you can press with your thumb, which could act as the other fire button

I have bound the pickle button to secondary, too, so I can fire it independent to primary (eg I have my guns on primary and KWS on secondary)

the analog thumbstick, which I think would be perfect to use for lateral/vertical thruster

It's not good for lateral thrusters—a ministick on your throttle under left hand is much more ergonomic. Use the ministick on the Gladiator for headlook instead.

How do you control an SRV with HOTAS?

Y axis for throttle/braking, X axis for steering, rapid fire pull for handbrake, throttle ministick for airborne rotation. Triggers and hats set up exactly as for ships.

Moreover, how do you control on foot? (Again, came controller is ideal for it, but how do you do it with HOTAS?

Mouse and keyboard for on-foot. HOTAS really isn't the best use for FPS IMO.

 

[aRJay]

In general just go through the bindings using whichever control feels right for the function then try it using the tutorials to check it in a consistent environment.

 

[DjVortex]

By the way, do you have any recommendations for a thruster to pair with the NXT Evo?

 

[Shurimal]

By the way, do you have any recommendations for a thruster to pair with the NXT Evo?

Personally, if it's just for Elite and other space sims, another Gladiator with the Omnithrottle adapter—this would allow for the best lateral thrust control. But VKB STECS is a really nice throttle unit if you want one that would also work for flight sims like DCS.

 

[Crank Larson]

This is a good HOTAS, quite new to the scene: https://www.turtlebeach.com/products/velocity-one-flight-deck

However, it isn't that great for VR as most of the buttons on the throttle are virtual panel buttons, so you need to be able to see them! Also the switches are on the stick rather than the throttle, which takes some getting used to (having come from an X-56).

For a cheap stick, this one is good: https://www.turtlebeach.com/products/velocity-one-flight-stick. You could combine it to have HOSAS set-up (which I'm currently experimenting with). It also includes two throttles on it, and works with XBox.

 

[Shurimal]

This is a good HOTAS, quite new to the scene: https://www.turtlebeach.com/products/velocity-one-flight-deck

However, it isn't that great for VR as most of the buttons on the throttle are virtual panel buttons, so you need to be able to see them! Also the switches are on the stick rather than the throttle, which takes some getting used to (having come from an X-56).

For a cheap stick, this one is good: https://www.turtlebeach.com/products/velocity-one-flight-stick. You could combine it to have HOSAS set-up (which I'm currently experimenting with). It also includes two throttles on it, and works with XBox.

Gimmicky, overpriced and not a good mechanical design. Reportedly the stick has a very stiff spring and it probably uses the same crappy single-spring gimbal design as TM 16K, X52/56/65, Warthog with horrible center bump and no axis separation. Non-tactile touch buttons are a no-go for non-VR, too. I have doubts about longevity and repairability. VKB, Virpil and Winwing are far better choices and allow far better accuracy and precision when flying.

 

[Crank Larson]

Gimmicky, overpriced and not a good mechanical design. Reportedly the stick has a very stiff spring and it probably uses the same crappy single-spring gimbal design as TM 16K, X52/56/65, Warthog with horrible center bump and no axis separation. Non-tactile touch buttons are a no-go for non-VR, too. I have doubts about longevity and repairability. VKB, Virpil and Winwing are far better choices and allow far better accuracy and precision when flying.

"Reportedly" Have you tried them? I own them.

The accuracy and feel of the sticks is excellent for the price range, they use Hall sensors. They are a huge step up from the X-56 and in the same price range. I didn't say they compared to the more expensive sticks.

 

[Shurimal]

"Reportedly" Have you tried them? I own them.

I don't need to own a Zastava to know it's a crap car. But people who have never tried any other cars might think Zastava is a perfectly fine car.

The accuracy and feel of the sticks is excellent for the price range, they use Hall sensors.

So? Hall effect sensors mean jack all if the gimbal design is bad. TM 16k has 16-bit Hall effect sensors, but real world accuracy is comparable to 8 bit sensors--even after regreasing the gimbal with Nyogel 767A. Because you need a well-designed gimbal to make use of the raw sensor capabilities.

They are a huge step up from the X-56 and in the same price range.

X-56 is a hunk of a junk and an easy bar to clear. TM 16k is better than that.

I didn't say they compared to the more expensive sticks.

VKB Gladiator is only a little more expensive, but puts all their money in good design, not gimmicks like touch screens.

 

[Crank Larson]

I don't need to own a Zastava to know it's a crap car. But people who have never tried any other cars might think Zastava is a perfectly fine car.

So? Hall effect sensors mean jack all if the gimbal design is bad. TM 16k has 16-bit Hall effect sensors, but real world accuracy is comparable to 8 bit sensors--even after regreasing the gimbal with Nyogel 767A. Because you need a well-designed gimbal to make use of the raw sensor capabilities.

X-56 is a hunk of a junk and an easy bar to clear. TM 16k is better than that.

VKB Gladiator is only a little more expensive, but puts all their money in good design, not gimmicks like touch screens.

So, no, you have no idea what they're like then. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Dragsham]

Twin virpils

Once owned you can never go back
The left handed one is right angled to imitate a throttle

 

[Shurimal]

So, no, you have no idea what they're like then. Thanks for clarifying.

Simracing and flight sim gear is easily quantifiable. The mechanical parts are the most important here and there is no subjectivity with these unlike with keyboards and mice. One can take a quick look at how the gimbal is constructed and draw a conclusion if a device has potential or not. Reviews will reveal problems with stiction, spring tension and mushy buttons. One has absolutely no need to buy or even try a piece of gear to know if it's good or not if places like r/hotas exist which is a great source of crowd-sourced knowledge and has separated wheat from the chaff. The consensus there has been since the launch of turtle beach stuff that these are "meh" and sell design and gimmicks instead of real-world performance, eg:

https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/yxjp6f

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/yxjp6f/just_got_the_turtle_beach_velocityone_flight/

https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/1awizze

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/1awizze/turtle_beach_velocityone_flightdeck_the_first_one/

https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/188xjnh

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/188xjnh/velocityone_flightstick_worth_it_for_100_on_sale/

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

I fly with two premium Gladiators, normal for the right and Omnithrottle for the left. For the two triggers I use the right two stage trigger for primary fire - I have to pull all the way through to the second stage to avoid accidental fire - and the red thumb button for secondary fire. I use the left two stage to deploy hardpoints.

In general I find the Gladiator with the OT to be a good middle ground between twin sticks and using a throttle. Depends on your flying style a bit, but if you make heavy use of laterals and verticals or fly FA off it gives you a lot of control. I have laterals on X, vertical on Y and thrust on the twist.

You can also convert the OT to a proper throttle by taking out the springs for Y and lock down X, or a hybrid with a springless throttle axis but X still free for laterals.

Also, between two Gladiators you have more than enough inputs to distribute all binds how it seems logical for you. Personally, I have

• primary fire on right two stage, secondary on red button
• boost on right pinkie
• Cockpit mode on right index button
• FA toggle on left index button
• PIPs on right center POV
• fire groups on left POV up/down of the right stick
• lights, NV, scoop and gear on the right POV of the right stick
• throttle presets on the right thumb POV
• targeting on the left center POV
• countermeasures (SCB, heat sink, silent running, SFN, chaff) on the left POV of the left stick
• subtargeting on the right POV of the left stick
• hyperspace, SC and next route target on left thumb POV

So it is mostly a combat orientated setup, but it works well for everything. I don't use a throttle lever, in SC I only use the 0-25-50-75-100 percent presets, and in normal space the left twist for thrust

(Edited for the terrible spelling. My fingers are too large to post from a mobile.)

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

As for the SRV, most controls are identical. I use the right wist to steer and the left for acceleration. I don't remember exactly, but I think right X and Y control pitch and roll, and left X and Y control the turret. I avoid the SRV as it makes me want to vomit in VR after a short time, so I don't have the controls memorized.

For on foot I switch to mouse and keyboard.

 

[Fixitman]

I've slowly worked my way up from cheap plastic (Saitek X45 in '98) to high-end (Virpil in 2020). What's important is to buy what you can afford without regretting the purchase later (I really regret my Warthog). Develop a keybind setup that works for you, adding complexity as you go. Anything gear will do, provided you're willing to work at it.

Regarding multiple triggers: They've never been useful to me outside of combat flight sims. The big red button on my Alpha Prime is my secondary fire for ED, because it feels natural for me. Your choice may be different, based on what feels natural for you.

 

[Lhorndra]

As others here said, I find a second Gladiator in the left hand much better suited for space sims like ED. In my setup, the left stick controls all throttle axes, and with much, much finer control than a regular thumbstick on a gamepad.

How do you use both primary and secondary fire at the same time?

I don't know if I understand you correctly, but just pull the red trigger all the way = primary + secondary function. In my setup, it looks like this:

Fire 1 (pull red trigger slightly)	primary fire
Fire 2 (pull red trigger all the way)	secondary fire
B2 (Rapid Fire) push	next fire group
B2 (Rapid Fire) pull	prev. fire group
A2 (red thumb button)	secondary fire

In some combat situations, I want to fire both primary and secondary weapons simultaneously, so I just pull the red trigger all the way. If I just want to use the secondary weapon/scanner, I press the red thumb button. Yes, you can't press any other thumb controls during that, but the stick is still easy to move. On a gamepad, you also can't operate the right thumbstick while pressing down a button, so there's that.

A Gladiator Nxt Evo (or a similar joystick) has sooo much more buttons in reach of your thumb and index finger than a regular gamepad. It just takes a little time adjusting.

Another prominent question is: How do you control an SRV with HOTAS? A game controller is literally made for that purpose and thus is ideal. But with HOTAS...?

I've driven my SRV with a Thrustmaster HOTAS setup for a year or so without any problems. My dual stick setup now is clearly better suited, but you are right, a gamepad fits very well. If you prefer, just keep on using your gamepad while driving. The beauty of ED's complex binding options is that you can use a plethora of different controllers with this game. The best one for every situation.

Moreover, how do you control on foot? (Again, came controller is ideal for it, but how do you do it with HOTAS?)

For on-foot combat, nothing comes close to keyboard + mouse, not even a gamepad. There's a reason why nobody plays Counter-Strike with a gamepad or joystick professionally. However, just for exobiology and running around concourses, dual Gladiators are perfectly fine for me, because they feature analogue thumbsticks, just like your gamepad. So basically, I don't use the joystick's axes at all while on foot, I just take the "A1" thumbsticks and use them exactly like I would use the thumbsticks on a gamepad.

FYI, I attached my current ship and SRV bindings (dual Gladiators) to this post. You can see my old HOTAS setup on Inara: ship controls and SRV controls.

 

[Lhorndra]

P.S.: Also, I can confirm everything Helmut said about the Omni Throttle. I forgot to mention it in my previous post, but my left stick features the Omni Throttle Adapter as well. It's nearly perfect while flying FA off, or while accelerating in your SRV with a slight turn of your wrist, like on a motorbike.

 

[Crank Larson]

Simracing and flight sim gear is easily quantifiable. The mechanical parts are the most important here and there is no subjectivity with these unlike with keyboards and mice. One can take a quick look at how the gimbal is constructed and draw a conclusion if a device has potential or not. Reviews will reveal problems with stiction, spring tension and mushy buttons. One has absolutely no need to buy or even try a piece of gear to know if it's good or not if places like r/hotas exist which is a great source of crowd-sourced knowledge and has separated wheat from the chaff. The consensus there has been since the launch of turtle beach stuff that these are "meh" and sell design and gimmicks instead of real-world performance, eg:

https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/yxjp6f

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/yxjp6f/just_got_the_turtle_beach_velocityone_flight/

https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/1awizze

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/1awizze/turtle_beach_velocityone_flightdeck_the_first_one/

https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/188xjnh

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/188xjnh/velocityone_flightstick_worth_it_for_100_on_sale/

Or one can actually try a device rather than theorycraft from afar and build up opinions based on little other than hearsay and hyperbole.

 

[metatheurgist]

On my stick (x52) primary fire is the index trigger and secondary is one of several buttons in reach of my thumb on the same stick. The others are things like select target and UI select/back. The index trigger has a 2-stage trigger which could be used for primary and secondary but I find it hard to finesse that when I'm trying to pull the ship in different directions at the same time and I prefer to have them as clearly separate functions. The SRV is actually pretty good to drive with a HOTAS, the throttle is really nice for setting a speed and letting it roll.

For foot I switch to a DS4. That is my preferred controller for 1st/3rd person situations and it feels too natural and ingrained for me to switch, even if keyboard is supposed to be better.

And the great thing about ED's control set up is that you can use all 3 at once for different and even backup binds (in case a stick button goes wonky). If I had a steering wheel I'd be tempted to set that for SRV too.