Belgium’s gambling regulators goes to war against RNG

Bad_Wolf

B
I'm impressed. They must have solved a lot of important issues in their country if this made it on the priority list. Hats off to them.

Edit: Though.. doesn't gambling imply that there is some kind of money transferring hands? You already paid for Elite.
Done, end of.
RNG doesn't get you anything that would otherwise be paid for. You don't make money or lose money with engineers.
Now if you look at the loot box situation they were actually referring to I can see an issue.

Meh, one thing is for sure in this world. A fool and their money shall soon be parted.
Also, a politician will find a way to make an issue out of anything if it gets them what they want.
 
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Vardaugas

Vardaugas
Guess that's one way to remove almost every game in existence from public access. Mau Mau? Ludo? Yahtzee? All games of chance. Sorry, chess only.
 

CMDR ANCALAGON

C
Governments...

The funny part will be when they get to the part where they have to come up with some universal definition of "sucess" in a game.
 

Limoncello Lizard

Limoncello Lizard
This is only an issue because you can buy them for real money.

But those who do not feel like or have the time to make the characters play better, can also buy these improvements via so-called 'Loot Crates'. These are virtual boxes that you purchase without knowing what is in the boxes at that moment.

And that's where the problem lies, says the Gaming Commission. Because you want certain things but do not know what you are buying, you are actually gambling. "It is therefore dependent on chance how well you can play the game. And in that case, this is one of the games of chance, "says Peter Naessens, director of the Gaming Commission, to VTM NIEUWS.
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Vardaugas

Vardaugas
CMDR ANCALAGON said:
Governments...

The funny part will be when they get to the part where they have to come up with some universal definition of "sucess" in a game.
Click to expand...

They don't. They just leave that to the courts to interpret their shoddy legislation and hope the voters don't recognize that failure past their hand shaking and shoulder patting fest in the media.
 

Straker

Straker
While pseudo random number generation is a key tool used by a lot of games, the issue is how it hooks into our brain's hard-wired reward system and the effects on potential addiction. It is heavily dependant on outcomes and how biology drives our goal-directed behaviour. It looks like they are simply trying to establish this link between how a game establishes outcomes and the types of goal directed activities required to engage with them, within the context of gambling which can lead to addictive behaviour. I support this investigation as there needs to be more awareness in the broader public about the limitations and traps of our biology.

As for Elite Dangerous, I've never supported randomised outcomes for goal directed activities (ie the way Engineer Blueprints work).
 

Gunnet

G
They're not talking about anything even slightly like engineering. The question is whether buying (i.e. with actual money) a chance to receive one of a variety of virtual items with wildly different degrees of desirability constitutes gambling.

It's important to remember that when a gambling commission refers to a "game", they're not talking about the game of Battlefield or Counterstrike or whatever. They're talking about the possibility that the loot crates themselves constitute a "game" in the strict legal sense.
 

CMDR ANCALAGON

C
Straker said:
While pseudo random number generation is a key tool used by a lot of games, the issue is how it hooks into our brain's hard-wired reward system and the effects on potential addiction. It is heavily dependant on outcomes and how biology drives our goal-directed behaviour. It looks like they are simply trying to establish this link between how a game establishes outcomes and the types of goal directed activities required to engage with them, within the context of gambling which can lead to addictive behaviour. I support this investigation as there needs to be more awareness in the broader public about the limitations and traps of our biology.

As for Elite Dangerous, I've never supported randomised outcomes for goal directed activities (ie the way Engineer Blueprints work).
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So where do you stand on paper-rocks-scissors?

I'm generally opposed to any governmental investigation ("inquisition") that is centered around "the broader public and the limitations and traps of our biology."

Sounds like a good 'ole fashioned witch hunt to me.
 

Deleted member 110222

D
Inb4 lock. This smells like a political thread, and guess what got banned yesterday? :D
 

Stealthie

Stealthie
I think the OP might be overlooking the need for money to be involved before games of chance face legal issues.

As I understand it, one of the mechanics of Battlefront 2 involves buying random "loot crates" which may contain power-ups that can usually only be earned via hours of play.
That would add the element of money as well as chance and (possibly) be considered as gambling.

The same isn't true of ED (or snakes & ladders or snap) unless you decide to bet on it.
 

Goose4291

Banned
Goose4291
Becky said:
"Peter Naessens, says that if your ability to succeed in the game is dependent on random outcomes [...] then the commission will have to consider it a game of chance."

https://www.pcgamesn.com/star-wars-...2-loot-box-gambling-belgium-gaming-commission

Might be worth considering alternative options for Engineers - sliders perhaps; because, as everyone knows, Elite is all about having the top notch random rolls.
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Firstly, good find. Interesting read.

Secondly, like Limoncello says, I doubt this will apply to Engineers as no real world money is changing hands at any point.
 

Lily from anim.o.v.e

Lily from anim.o.v.e
this is going to affect a lot games with gambling boxes. I don't even know why it is investigated, it is clearly gambling at all. It always has been in every of these games. the only possible contr aganst this si that you always "win" something even if it's worthless.
 
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Stigbob

Stigbob
All games have random elements, stops boredom setting in almost immediately and adds replayability. If engineers had sliders there would be one mod recipe for each weapon or module and it would all be very samey. I like tinkering with my ships on an individual basis.

The article is about paying cash for random rewards via lootboxes being gambling, which it obviously is just with the possibility of an advantage in-game not a cash payout.
 

Goose4291

Banned
Goose4291
Stigbob said:
All games have random elements, stops boredom setting in almost immediately and adds replayability. If engineers had sliders there would be one mod recipe for each weapon or module and it would all be very samey. I like tinkering with my ships on an individual basis.

The article is about paying cash for random rewards via lootboxes being gambling, which it obviously is just with the possibility of an advantage in-game not a cash payout.
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The interesting thing is that dependent on who you believe, EA shut down their single player star wars visceral studios game (which was looking to me to be a sandbox spacetrader with spacelegs and a story) because they couldnt work out how to put reward boxes into the multiplayer element of the game EA wanted shoehorned in.

I wonder how it'll affect future game design, and what impact it will have on legacy games?
 

Straker

Straker
CMDR ANCALAGON said:
So where do you stand on paper-rocks-scissors?

I'm generally opposed to any governmental investigation ("inquisition") that is centered around "the broader public and the limitations and traps of our biology."

Sounds like a good 'ole fashioned witch hunt to me.
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Addiction is a serious problem that affects a great number of people to varying degrees and is largely controlled by biological processes that we often have no access to and can be easily manipulated by external parties with this knowledge. Discussing these issues is important for individuals, families and societies.
 

Limoncello Lizard

Limoncello Lizard
When we eventually get spacelegs, FD could place casinos inside stations. Our CMDRs could go in them and bet credits on poker games, slot machines, fights, whatever, and win or lose credits by the billions. This would still not be seen as gambling that could be regulated, as real money didn't get spent, lost or won. But if credits ever became purchasable and/or saleable with real money, it would become gambling.

It's the fact that real money changes hands that makes it gambling.
 

Gunnet

G
Lily from anim.o.v.e said:
this is going to affect a lot games with gambling boxes. I don't even know why it is investigated, it is clearly gambling at all. It always has been in every of these games. the only possible contr aganst this si that you always "win" something even if it's worthless.
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That's the exact rationale the ESRB made when finding that loot crates aren't gambling. Obviously the ESRB isn't a real regulatory agency (of gambling or anything else). But the argument is there.

It's actually not so easy to pin down definitions for gambling, especially without overreaching. Shamus Young wrote an article about the ESRB thing which does a good job of plainly describing how muddy these waters are.
 
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