I need a joystick perfect for Elite and space dog fights, a tool to take me behind an enemy and firing before they even know I've moved, I want absolute fast cutting edge control (i dont care if it's metal rubber or plastic) any suggestions please. The has to be a definitive Joystick
Hardware & Technical Best Joystick for absolute maneuverability
- Thread starter Peacemaker Thor
- Start date
As you will probably see mentioned a lot the Saitek X52 seems to be the joystick/hotas of choice at the moment. I'm managing fine with an old (probably 10 years) Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.
Thrustmaster t16000m if you want accuracy in dogfighting the other stuff like saitek is way overpriced junk with pretty lights. The CH fighterstick is maybe a tad less accurate but has more functionality (buttons), it has no twist though.
Don't take my word for it though just look up x52 mods. Most people that have used better higher quality stick end up doing the magnet mod along with a spring mod.
The t16000m for example uses the same hall sensors that the warthog does but has less button but doesn't have the sticky stick problem like the warthog often suffers from. You do have to get a throttle or second stick though. This one is also an ambidextrous stick. You could pair this up with a CH throttle or fighterstick of just try it out with a KB.
If you have lots of cash and don't mind being on a waiting list you can try the vkb fat black mamba.
If you can only watch one video listen to ALL of the x52review especially when he mention compares some elements like accuracy and reliability.
X52 review
[video=youtube;R2JPrxBnQCE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2JPrxBnQCE[/video]
review of several joysticks
[video=youtube;oyY7oqDkXRM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyY7oqDkXRM[/video]
2014 joystick & HOTAS holidays buyers guide
[video=youtube;p8vTHinjlkk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8vTHinjlkk[/video]
I got three videos from the same guy from youtube because I recently found his reviews and found them pretty spot on and more than useful when buying.
Don't take my word for it though just look up x52 mods. Most people that have used better higher quality stick end up doing the magnet mod along with a spring mod.
The t16000m for example uses the same hall sensors that the warthog does but has less button but doesn't have the sticky stick problem like the warthog often suffers from. You do have to get a throttle or second stick though. This one is also an ambidextrous stick. You could pair this up with a CH throttle or fighterstick of just try it out with a KB.
If you have lots of cash and don't mind being on a waiting list you can try the vkb fat black mamba.
If you can only watch one video listen to ALL of the x52review especially when he mention compares some elements like accuracy and reliability.
X52 review
[video=youtube;R2JPrxBnQCE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2JPrxBnQCE[/video]
review of several joysticks
[video=youtube;oyY7oqDkXRM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyY7oqDkXRM[/video]
2014 joystick & HOTAS holidays buyers guide
[video=youtube;p8vTHinjlkk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8vTHinjlkk[/video]
I got three videos from the same guy from youtube because I recently found his reviews and found them pretty spot on and more than useful when buying.
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There isn't a definitive one. Your minimum spec has to include a twist rudder though. After that, something with a good quality throttle with enough hats to let you use the flight assisted stick with left/right, up/down thruster maneouvers.
You could mix a CH Pro Throttle (lots of hats and a great mini stick) with a good mid priced Logitech or Thrustmaster. You could spring for an x55 though, and that's probably your best bet. Don't waste money on exotica like the Warthog (stiction and no rudder) or x65f (requires subtlety!).
Thanks for the great advice. Only one mention of the x65f, any reason why ?
You can spend weeks and months searching for the perfect joystick. There isn't such. You need to know what is most important for you and live with the drawbacks. If you never had i joystick i wouldn't spend too much money. You could buy a very cheap JS to find out what you don't like about it and compare this to reviews.
I had that one and upgraded to the x52 the x52 is more immersive but i hate to say especially as i gave it away for combat the extreme 3d was better.
Thanks for the heads up. I went for the x65f pro in the end. I'll let you know how it performs. Considering it doesn't move, I have my reservations. Can I still get the beta or gamma? I'm not prepared to wait 2 weeks?
They were discontinued, where did you buy yours from?
Some people I know liked them and some didn't because of the lack of feedback from no movement in the stick.
EDIT: AH I see they are still available in the UK but not in NA.
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Now, y'see, if you hadn't been so cryptic to begin with I could have given you much more information. I sort you knew you were describing an x65f in the original post, but as you'll see below, I wasn't about to recommend something as unusual as this to a potentially 'casual' gamer. You're obviously made of sterner stuff! ;-)
I got the last new x65f from Amazon Uk a couple of weeks ago. It was a bit of a ride in fact. Initially they sent me a 'new' one that was so used, it still had flakes of skin on it from the previous user! The stick also had 'play' of a millimetre on the X,Y and Z axis. I still liked the way it worked, but I kicked off slightly and they sent me another one, and this replacement was factory fresh. Still can't believe my luck to be honest.
Some things to look out for: The stick should be totally immobile. If you have ANY play in the stick, there's an issue. The very last batch has a much improved throttle movement straight out the box. The first one I had was stiff (but fine with a quick back and forward warm-up), but the second one was very responsive to the resistance settings, allowing me to set it perfectly and easily. With luck you'll get one of these final editions.
The stick will take time to 'get'. I'm very well versed in exotic hardware, and I totally get and buy-into force sensing, but I'm only now really getting used to the technology. A big tip is to keep the forces at default initially but to drop the yaw force to something like 0.7Nm for all rudder input. Next, try setting your deadzones to something like mine:
View attachment 3136
You can set asymmetrical deadzones to account for the strength of you wrist in one direction or another. To properly tune your deadzones, right click on one of them and untick 'Link Deadzones'. All this should help you avoid straining your arm early on. It's very tempting to apply the 'bending iron' technique! Just relax and keep things quite light as you feel your way into the system.
The centre calibration markers WILL jiggle around a bit, and they'll also wander off at times. This has no effect on the use of the stick so long as you keep them in a deadzone. Initially mine was really off, but I carried out Saitek's regedit correction and I'm pretty central now. Things seem to improve with time too. Either way, you'll get the hang of it over a few days. Make sure you set up the force panel too. It might not seem the prettiest thing to stick on that amazing throttle, but those 4 force settings will transform ANY flight/Space sim you've got. It's a totally ground breaking feature.
Sounds like a pile of junk, right? And not cheap either... Not a bit of it. It might be the best system I've ever used. The stick is extremely good with jet sims (download a copy of DCS if you don't already have it, and get it from the website, not Steam or you'll miss out on the great sales they have), and equally good with IL-2. A lot of people have written how useless the rudder is on the stick. I've absolutely no idea why they say this as I find it as useable as my beloved Sidewinder Force Feedback 2. The buttons are good, but not quite Warthog good, and the rotaries are a little sloppy. On the positive side though, many of them are metal, including the mouse stick and trigger. A neat feature is the ability to switch the hats around with the supplied key.
The throttle is stunning. It's almost worth the price alone. As you know you can decouple the throttle quads, and I do this all the time for combat maneuvers. The left quad is much easier to manipulate than the right, so you can really tune it for action. There's a little lateral movement in my throttle quads, but it's only noticeable if you go looking for it. I'd take this throttle over the Warthog's any day. I've owned both incidentally.
It might be an idea to run your games in windowed format while you adjust forces initially. I keep the control software open on another monitor as I learn how the force sensing works. One thing to look out for though: You might find that after you've adjusted a force, the stick seems very 'stiff' in response. Close the control centre and you'll find things are instantly sensitive again. This will hopefully help you avoid the pain I endured before working this out myself :-/
Good luck, I think you'll love it (I do!), and if you need any help, just add to this thread and I'll see if I can give you some pointers. In the mean time, here are some links to help you get going:
Beta drivers (use SD7_0_10_6_BETA):
ftp://ftp.saitek.com/pub/software/beta/
Saitek's x65f calibration tips:
http://www.saitek.com/uk/supp/x65fsx3.html
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Luceferous, thank you for that in depth advice, much appreciated, i was beginning to think I bought a wrong n. I got it on ebay yesterday, it's not arrived yet, only went for that because I heard Warthog had no z axes or twist rudder. i will hopefully recieve it Wednesday. I'm a little disturbed to hear it was discontinued, usually means it's crap and didn't take off (excuse the pun) why would a company discontinue something so expensive and modern tech? I look forward to chatting some more bud
Well saitek has a bad rep with build quality but I think the major problem was the stick had no give at all and many peeps had issues with that, the hotas users are a niche market and can be rather picky.
I'll say. They can prise my Warthog from my cold, dead hands etc.
I'll say. They can prise my Warthog from my cold, dead hands etc.
Wow. The stiction must be really bad in your one...
;-)
Maybe I'll just stick it straight back on ebay when I get it. If it's discontinued it won't have an ED preset
Well the RSI and Elite developers use X52/52 Pros, so one of those, or an x55 would be the safe bet if that's your main concern. If you're worried about it being discontinued, then look at CH stuff. No driver updates for the last 15 years, or redesigns of any of the internal technology. Or the Microsoft Sidewinder. Still one of the very best sticks out there. Loads of people are still using them but you won't find any profiles in Elite. In fact, just about every joystick out there is an old design. The x65f is the only genuinely revolutionary design to come out in the last 20 years, and it works with any joystick compatible game. It's not a stick to take a punt on though. It's too outré for that sort of approach. You can't just plug it in and get going. It takes weeks to get used to. After that it's great, but for a lot of people that's too much of a hurdle to get over, and that's completely understandable. The quality of the x65f is very good though, and those that 'get' it, love it. One thing you won't see on x65f forums are massive threads dedicated to faults, mods and guides on how to dismantle it. You can't say that about the Warthog, a stick that, despite its amazing popularity, is fundamentally very flawed.
Thanks for that. All the advice helps loads
Look not to knock the stick but saitek has a notoriously bad track record unlike CH who is KNOWN for fugly sticks that last forever, hell ch even let people send in their old ch stuff that work via gameport so they could refurbish em to usb. lol
As for the x52/pro.... it is popular because it looks good and has flashy lights, thing is though it is not any better than a 30$-40$ stick like the 3D pro the xtra money you pay for is for the "look".
RSI didn't devolp around the x52, they made the game input agnostic, as for elite they may have designed in game around the "look" of the x52 but that doesn't mean it is the "best" option for elite by far. Most games unless they are really small indie games are sent "stuff" from companies like saitek and the like in the hopes to boost their sales, it is a common thing and nothing should be read into that really.
As for enthusiasts they have lots of warthog/cougar/CH mods because there so many interesting thing you can do with it like take the metal grip and put it on the vk fat black mamba, which is all metal inside but has a plastic grip, to make a fantastic all metal stick etc etc
I am not saying your stick is horrible but you can't compare it with a 1000$ stick which is what warthog modified stick and old cougar modified stick are worth.
Lots of these stick are based on industrial/military stick and a fun tidbit is that the military force sensing which the 65f is based on has changed it so the stick has some movement to provide tactile feedback as they have found the non moving early versions inadequate.
@peacemaker thor I am not saying you bought a really bad stick, just be aware though if you do like and keep it it may not be one of those CH or sidewinder type situation where you'll be using the stick for 10 years. Only way to know is try it, most all of them have pros and cons.
I do agree with Luceferous though you can't just play 1 hour with it and make a call.
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