Best way to deal with gankers in Open

[Deleted member 182079]

I’ve spent evenings at a CG system in Open before without seeing a single hollow contact over the course of hours, with a totally clean block list. Two possibilities;

1). Instancing is shaky enough as it is, please don’t rattle it further with blocking.

2). Instancing is so shaky already that there’s little else you can do to make it worse, so just do what you will and get on with playing.

Personally I lean towards 2, given that people even talk about struggling to instance with friends. That being said, my block list is empty and my friend list still contains the first and only ganker to send me to a rebuy. I have no problem with people choosing the ganking playstyle, but it’s just not something I enjoy being part of generally.

I often wonder this also - in recent weeks it's become particularly awful, I spent an unreasonable amount of time in the game yesterday and came across maybe half a dozen players, all of which were non-hostile. The fact I still do instance with players (albeit normally no more than 2-3 at a time) and that I don't have any bandwidth/ping problems in general makes me rule out my own internet connection even though it crossed my mind a few times as well.

Don't know if it's just my problem or if others share the same experience but I feel Open feels more and more like Solo, even in the supposed player hotspots, for me. Fine, I spent half that time in the Pleiades but there I instanced with two players in perhaps 4 hours. I don't want to believe that all AX/Explorer types are playing in PG/Solo now. It's really weird, even in Asterope which is a well known AX farming spot.

 

[Brrokk]

Stuff that's often well within the ToS's and explicitly encouraged by the game (piracy, CZ & PP adversary to name the most obvious ones). I really wish these people would either get themselves a thicker skin and less fragile ego, or simply switch modes instead of misusing an option that was designed to deal with actual griefers (verbal via comms or continuously being a pain towards the player, not just because they shot at someone once) and cheaters.

I realise I'm wasting my breath here so will leave it at that, and it seems the horse has already bolted anyways as the practice seems quite widespread now (judging not just from forum posts but also system chat).

You know, I mostly agree. I'm not in favour of huge block lists, I try not to grow mine too much.

I'll offer a point of disagreement though. I think deliberately hanging around Deciat hoping to explode new players for no in-game reason is a ToS violation and worthy of block. It's just deliberately spoiling others' game experience.

 

[Sucette]

Like I said before; any issues arising from this aren't from the use of block, but about creating the conditions for being blocked. Don't irritate people to the extent they want to avoid you, and the whole thing doesn't even begin.

If I want to take an extreme exemple, we'll let's say that I block anybody who say "hi" to me, because dont like people. Is the problem here the use of block or the created conditions?
This one is extreme but I have no doubt that there's people with those "weird" or "very vvery easy" blocking triggers.

Also ye, the use of block is problemactic when it's used in pvp, by people who are actively searching for pvp, but block others pvper because they don't want them in the fight. And that's not the outlaws pvpers who are known to do that.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

You know, I mostly agree. I'm not in favour of huge block lists, I try not to grow mine too much.

I'll offer a point of disagreement though. I think deliberately hanging around Deciat hoping to explode new players for no in-game reason is a ToS violation and worthy of block. It's just deliberately spoiling others' game experience.

I'll disagree with your disagreement point if I may

It can be annoying, especially if you just came back from Darnielle's Progress with your MA ready to unlock Farseer and get blasted by a clown face just before you dock.

I do think it can serve as a lesson learned though, to be more alert to your surroundings; unfortunately/fortunately the game doesn't serve solutions on a silver platter beyond switching to Solo (when I started playing the game I knew full well what Open represented and avoided it until I became more adventureous), but there are ways around them even if you're in an unengineered stock Sidewinder.

It takes time and some thinking outside the box but it is tremendous fun to dodge gankers right under their noses. And if you can't be bothered (which is understandable) simply switch modes until you're done - after that gankers will be a very rare encounter again. No need to block because gankers don't roam the bubble, they focus on player choke points such as engineers and there it's really only Farseer and maybe 1-2 others if you're unlucky.

Edit - CGs are another one of those choke points, but as @Agony_Aunt already described, I have a lot more issues in Open as a result of non-hostile players when engaging in a CG as opposed to hostile ones/gankers - pad hogging, hoovering up mats & salvage (not their fault but still annoying), kill stealing, SLF lag (I'm guilty of that also I admit but I blame the game, not the player) so beyond winging up and working CZ's/RES's there is very little benefit to play CGs in Open, unless you like seeing non-NPC ships docked silently at the station. I sometimes switch to Solo if I want to increase my productivity i.e. when CGs offer worthwhile rewards such as the recent modules or PJs.

I will agree though that gankers congregating in Deciat is horribly gamey - but that's not their fault but the way the game is structured, and the sheer size of the sandbox.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

Not everyone wants or cares for risk from other players and enjoy the game without it. Sure, you might think it makes the game bland, but plenty don't.

We've seen this mentality time and again posted on the forums from those who enjoy the PvP aspect of the game. Avoiding PvP makes the game boring. While failing to understand that for many, the PvP is boring or just an annoyance. Yet certain PvPers insist on FD changing things to push/force people to partake in PvP.

This is why modes are a good thing for many. Allows everyone to play how they want.

Well said. And they always have to make some demeaning trolling insult about the PVE lifestyle too. Pat-A-Cake simulator?? Could have done without that, don't think that helped make his case but whatever lol.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

Stuff that's often well within the ToS's and explicitly encouraged by the game (piracy, CZ & PP adversary to name the most obvious ones). I really wish these people would either get themselves a thicker skin and less fragile ego, or simply switch modes instead of misusing an option that was designed to deal with actual griefers (verbal via comms or continuously being a pain towards the player, not just because they shot at someone once) and cheaters.

I realise I'm wasting my breath here so will leave it at that, and it seems the horse has already bolted anyways as the practice seems quite widespread now (judging not just from forum posts but also system chat).

No you are just attacking the symptom and not the cause.

People obviously want the PVE Open experience and the "abuse" of blocking is the only way they can currently get it. Giving us all a real PVE Open server option fixes ALL of this.

 

[Brrokk]

And as long as there is block option nothing prevents one from making mile long blocklist and have safe open mode....It is off course pretty low move if used by say organised faction to prevent opposition, but doable.

Here it is. I could make an entirely safe version of Open by blocking every CMDR I meet and relogging, but I have no incentive to do so and it's easier to play in Solo if I'm feeling antisocial. But any kind of greater rewards in Open would give me that incentive. I don't think I'd go to such mad lengths, but I'm sure it would occur to others. I think creating such an incentive would be damaging to the game.

 

[Ettanin]

don't have any bandwidth/ping problems in general makes me rule out my own internet connection even though it crossed my mind a few times as well.

Can you rule this out? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier-grade_NAT
I regularly see other players on Mobius at hotspots like Jameson Memorial, but i have a dedicated IPv4 address.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

No you are just attacking the symptom and not the cause.

People obviously want the PVE Open experience and the "abuse" of blocking is the only way they can currently get it. Giving us all a real PVE Open server option fixes ALL of this.

Exactly. And having optional zones to flag for PvP in would just have the same effect for people looking to do some pewpew.

 

[Deleted member 121570]

I'll disagree with your disagreement point if I may

It can be annoying, especially if you just came back from Darnielle's Progress with your MA ready to unlock Farseer and get blasted by a clown face just before you dock.

I do think it can serve as a lesson learned though, to be more alert to your surroundings; unfortunately/fortunately the game doesn't serve solutions on a silver platter beyond switching to Solo (when I started playing the game I knew full well what Open represented and avoided it until I became more adventureous), but there are ways around them even if you're in an unengineered stock Sidewinder.

It takes time and some thinking outside the box but it is tremendous fun to dodge gankers right under their noses. And if you can't be bothered (which is understandable) simply switch modes until you're done - after that gankers will be a very rare encounter again. No need to block because gankers don't roam the bubble, they focus on player choke points such as engineers and there it's really only Farseer and maybe 1-2 others if you're unlucky.

Edit - CGs are another one of those choke points, but as @Agony_Aunt already described, I have a lot more issues in Open as a result of non-hostile players when engaging in a CG as opposed to hostile ones/gankers - pad hogging, hoovering up mats & salvage (not their fault but still annoying), kill stealing, SLF lag (I'm guilty of that also I admit but I blame the game, not the player) so beyond winging up and working CZ's/RES's there is very little benefit to play CGs in Open, unless you like seeing non-NPC ships docked silently at the station. I sometimes switch to Solo if I want to increase my productivity i.e. when CGs offer worthwhile rewards such as the recent modules or PJs.

I will agree though that gankers congregating in Deciat is horribly gamey - but that's not their fault but the way the game is structured, and the sheer size of the sandbox.

Personally, I have a slightly different take on it. Open to me doesn't represent 'PvP' space, but social opportunity. I find it rewarding to meet people, play the game with them and have a shared experience that we mutually enjoy and form friendships with.

However, within that social context - there's some people who just demonstrate themselves to be the type that likes killing new players or sealclubbing at no risk to themselves. For me; those are individuals that I do not ever wish to play the game with. So, block works great, as I just make a list that means I don't ever have to.

For me at least, it's nothing to do with in-game risk, ToS violations or even PvP. I respect and admire those who push their competitive limits in PvP combat against challenging opponents. Things like CZ encounters are cool as hell. But clubbing seals for the laugh? I just don't want to play with that type of person, and consider avoiding them both so trivial and such a waste of my time that I prefer to just remove the opportunity of ever encountering them in any way, good or bad.

For anyone else's game I remove them from through instancing hiccups, well - some will bemoan that, and some will benefit. If I consider it, it's probably more balanced towards benefit.

Either way though - Modes are blanket choices, but block is all about the individual.
Solo/PG excludes social interaction opportunity with everyone/unknown people, which goes against the social aspect of the game and my interest in playing it. Block allows removal of those individuals I don't want to play with, whilst still allowing me to play the game and meet new folks.

 

[Bigmaec]

And the reality is people hand around block lists (see distant ganks) to even preemptively block everyone.

I wish FD never changed it so you can block via social menu.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

And the reality is people hand around block lists (see distant ganks) to even preemptively block everyone.

I wish FD never changed it so you can block via social menu.

I'm going to go out on the limb and say if you end up on one of those blocks lists, you're probably the kind of player those using said block list wish to avoid. Yes?

 

[Gutser]

Short answer, fight em!

But, please, please post further in this thread here. This is the only official way to see his own PvP success.

You see, Elite is the game with the best flight and fight mechanics since ... it´s released. And it seems as it will be the best flight and fight mechanics in the future, just look at the effort put into weapons and upgrades. Why should we use such a game for just A to B traveling? Jesus, please. Play this game as it should be played. All the possible weapon loadouts, weapon and armor diversity, weapon and armor skill/upgrade trees etc. etc. No other game in this world offers you such an amount of PvP possibilitys. See, also frontiert want it so. The whole galaxy is open for PvP, there are just a handfull PvP protectet systems for beginners. Just don´t fly with 5D shield when you can use 7A shields. Don´t be a n00b. Git god.

Edit: And, from my point of view, all the players who are using ignore lists and not play in open are miss the target of the game here. Why is Elite dangerous? Because of the NPC? ... Kidding? ... It´s because of other players. Like in all other games! Not playing in open is something like a training mode, nothing more. You play this game since a few years and you play just in training mode? Please, then make your first try to play the game right. Don´t cheat yourself.

 

[Bigmaec]

I'm going to go out on the limb and say if you end up on one of those blocks lists, you're probably the kind of player those using said block list wish to avoid. Yes?

No, why?

1) I have no idea if someone blocks me because I speak positive about PvP and gankers, this is one of the problems with the preemptive block

2) The whole point of preemptive blocking is just insane for a MMO. I can understand if people block other people who blow them up. I don't condone it
or advise to, but I can understand it. When I first started playing in open I had people on the blocklist, whom I later pruned empty.
But that was in the old system, where you could only block if you had contact with the CMDR in an instance.
Lets say I ganked some players (I even did, a handfull maybe). Is this enough reason for everyone in this forum thread to block me?
To let you tell about your friendlist that Bigmaec is an evil ganker and they should (and can!) all block me? This is all stupid.

Block should be for abusive behaviour, not for me shooting you. Maybe you run missions in a system I don't want you to run missions.
So you are allowed to block me? Ridiculous.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Can you rule this out? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier-grade_NAT
I regularly see other players on Mobius at hotspots like Jameson Memorial, but i have a dedicated IPv4 address.

I'm not a networking guru but I tried port forwarding for a while, did make FA difference so switched back to standard.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Why is Elite dangerous? Because of the NPC? ... Kidding? ... It´s because of other players.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

No, why?

1) I have no idea if someone blocks me because I speak positive about PvP and gankers, this is one of the problems with the preemptive block

2) The whole point of preemptive blocking is just insane for a MMO. I can understand if people block other people who blow them up. I don't condone it
or advise to, but I can understand it. When I first started playing in open I had people on the blocklist, whom I later pruned empty.
But that was in the old system, where you could only block if you had contact with the CMDR in an instance.
Lets say I ganked some players (I even did, a handfull maybe). Is this enough reason for everyone in this forum thread to block me?
To let you tell about your friendlist that Bigmaec is an evil ganker and they should (and can!) all block me? This is all stupid.

Block should be for abusive behaviour, not for me shooting you. Maybe you run missions in a system I don't want you to run missions.
So you are allowed to block me? Ridiculous.

There are those who believe you "shooting them" when they aren't actively seeking PVP, IS abusive behavior and griefing. I'm sure you are correct and some people are unfairly blocked. I also agree with you it's a very imperfect solution to a problem caused by a severely outdated MMO model of having a forced PVP server with no PVE alternatives in Open play.

But until FDEV pulls their head out of the black hole and finally realizes this game needs PVE Open mode, I don't think changing blocking would be a good idea at this time.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Personally, I have a slightly different take on it. Open to me doesn't represent 'PvP' space, but social opportunity. I find it rewarding to meet people, play the game with them and have a shared experience that we mutually enjoy and form friendships with.

However, within that social context - there's some people who just demonstrate themselves to be the type that likes killing new players or sealclubbing at no risk to themselves. For me; those are individuals that I do not ever wish to play the game with. So, block works great, as I just make a list that means I don't ever have to.

For me at least, it's nothing to do with in-game risk, ToS violations or even PvP. I respect and admire those who push their competitive limits in PvP combat against challenging opponents. Things like CZ encounters are cool as hell. But clubbing seals for the laugh? I just don't want to play with that type of person, and consider avoiding them both so trivial and such a waste of my time that I prefer to just remove the opportunity of ever encountering them in any way, good or bad.

For anyone else's game I remove them from through instancing hiccups, well - some will bemoan that, and some will benefit. If I consider it, it's probably more balanced towards benefit.

Either way though - Modes are blanket choices, but block is all about the individual.
Solo/PG excludes social interaction opportunity with everyone/unknown people, which goes against the social aspect of the game and my interest in playing it. Block allows removal of those individuals I don't want to play with, whilst still allowing me to play the game and meet new folks.

I understand that some people are not interested in PvP, but I'm still surprised that someone like you, who I imagine is pretty adept at flying evasively, doesn't need to resort to block to fight off gankers?

In my own experience, once you escaped them a few times they will leave you alone.

I can count the number of times I've been pulled by a hostile player in recent weeks on less than one hand. No blocks required. And when I do use block it's only temporary - say for pad blockers or obnoxious system chatters (most of which don't seem to play in Open, funnily enough). At the end of my play session or if I forget every few days I'll take them off my block list again; the only player who stays on it is, as I mentioned before, an actual cheater (I should really check whether they still play even).

Look, I'm largely a PvE player so I'll be able to live with people wanting to mass block other players and wreck instancing even more than it already is - I just find this habit so unnecessary, unless you operate out of Deciat for whatever reason. Anywhere else (including ShinDez and the odd CG) it's a complete non-issue these days. It does make me wonder why I still log into Open though if the experience is now largely the same, for whatever reasons. At least Solo allows high-res screenshots.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

I'm not a networking guru but I tried port forwarding for a while, did make FA difference so switched back to standard.

If you're having instancing problems, and suspect your ISP may be "doing something" odd (like using carrier-NAT, which can complicate things) try using a VPN on your PC. If everything works well, then you know it's something about your ISP/router. If it still doesn't work, then I would raise a support ticket to see if FDEV can help. (There are a number of tests you can run that may help them, but they will ask you at the time)

 

[khalismur]

There are those who believe you "shooting them" when they aren't actively seeking PVP, IS abusive behavior and griefing. I'm sure you are correct and some people are unfairly blocked. I also agree with you it's a very imperfect solution to a problem caused by a severely outdated MMO model of having a forced PVP server with no PVE alternatives in Open play.

But until FDEV pulls their head out of the black hole and finally realizes this game needs PVE Open mode, I don't think changing blocking would be a good idea at this time.

A PVE Open would fragment the community further.

My vote would go for lowering (and fine-tuning over balance patches) weights of actions of commanders doing PP and BGS activities in Solo/PG. That should come in parallel to the implementation of much more robust system to discourage ganks of Clean ships. e.g. it makes sense to kill 'combat ships' of rival factions/powers that are actively taking part in PP/BGS. But it doesn't of a clean players going on his way to meet Farseer, etc. A better system should really account for such things, Notoriery is useless.