Better Depth of Asteroid rings for combat.

[BL1P]

Currently the Battles in asteroid rings always end up outside the ring, either above or below.

It would be nice if combat in asteroids rings could be improved with the depth of the asteroid rings being increased by something like Random x5 - x50.
As it stands at the moment Asteroid combat is lack luster.


Hope you will think on this and Merry Xmass

 

[varonica]

Currently the Battles in asteroid rings always end up outside the ring, either above or below.

It would be nice if combat in asteroids rings could be improved with the depth of the asteroid rings being increased by something like Random x5 - x50.
As it stands at the moment Asteroid combat is lack luster.


Hope you will think on this and Merry Xmass

I have no problems with combat oriented people having better places to fight in, however the asteroid rings, both stellar and planetary are generated by the stellar forge according to our current best understanding of cosmology, they aren't randomly generated and should be the same for everyone whenever they visit, so we shouldn't, and probably can't apply RNG to them without breaking stuff. So yes I think we should do something to help you, but not at the cost of breaking part of the stellar forge, maybe some other way to provide what you want.

 

[BL1P]

I have no problems with combat oriented people having better places to fight in, however the asteroid rings, both stellar and planetary are generated by the stellar forge according to our current best understanding of cosmology, they aren't randomly generated and should be the same for everyone whenever they visit, so we shouldn't, and probably can't apply RNG to them without breaking stuff. So yes I think we should do something to help you, but not at the cost of breaking part of the stellar forge, maybe some other way to provide what you want.

I did not realise adding in a random depth to the rings would break the stellar forge.

Instead of random then, maybe use the planetary bodys stats. Larger bodys could have deeper rings etcetc.

 

[varonica]

I did not realise adding in a random depth to the rings would break the stellar forge.

Instead of random then, maybe use the planetary bodys stats. Larger bodys could have deeper rings etcetc.

I'll try and explain again. Systems and galactic regions are generated using procedural generation, it takes into account the mass of that sector of space, it breaks that sector into regions, it assigns mass to stars and systems in that region, that available mass is used to determine the number and size of the planets, the mass of the asteroid belts and planetary and stellar rings, it's all carefully worked out to best fit with our current understanding of the galaxy. So no, planets don't get thicker rings because they are bigger, they get a mass assigned to the ring system that generates a realistic ring system, arbitrarily changing the thickness of the rings flows all the way back up to the amount of mass assigned to galactic sectors and indeed the galaxy as a whole. So yes, changing the thickness of rings changes the mass of rings, changing the mass of rings affects the total mass in a galactic sector, changing the mass in the galactic sector changes the mass of the galaxy, so yes it all screws with the stellar forge and we get an unrealistic galaxy with unpredictable results.

So yes I am all for you having a nice play area, but not at the cost of breaking the stellar forge, that is probably the most important bit of programming in the entire game.

Even FDEV don't screw with it lightly, when they fiddled with stuff to create the Trappist 1 system they could only do it because there was already a system in the right area with the correct amount of mass which they could rearrange to form the planets of the system. We have enough bugs already, lets not start screwing around with the very base code of the game to satisfy a whim. I am sure there are other ways to do it, you just need to come up with an idea that doesn't impact the game at such a low level.

 

[BL1P]

I'll try and explain again. Systems and galactic regions are generated using procedural generation, it takes into account the mass of that sector of space, it breaks that sector into regions, it assigns mass to stars and systems in that region, that available mass is used to determine the number and size of the planets, the mass of the asteroid belts and planetary and stellar rings, it's all carefully worked out to best fit with our current understanding of the galaxy. So no, planets don't get thicker rings because they are bigger, they get a mass assigned to the ring system that generates a realistic ring system, arbitrarily changing the thickness of the rings flows all the way back up to the amount of mass assigned to galactic sectors and indeed the galaxy as a whole. So yes, changing the thickness of rings changes the mass of rings, changing the mass of rings affects the total mass in a galactic sector, changing the mass in the galactic sector changes the mass of the galaxy, so yes it all screws with the stellar forge and we get an unrealistic galaxy with unpredictable results.

So yes I am all for you having a nice play area, but not at the cost of breaking the stellar forge, that is probably the most important bit of programming in the entire game.

Even FDEV don't screw with it lightly, when they fiddled with stuff to create the Trappist 1 system they could only do it because there was already a system in the right area with the correct amount of mass which they could rearrange to form the planets of the system. We have enough bugs already, lets not start screwing around with the very base code of the game to satisfy a whim. I am sure there are other ways to do it, you just need to come up with an idea that doesn't impact the game at such a low level.

Reduce width, increase depth, keep same mass !

Also It doesnt feel like the Instance (with the roids and the waypoint marker etc) we drop into is created via the forge.
But reduce width and increased depth would be nice.

atm they are just crap.

 

[jmp470]

The one ship you are always going after always goes about 10-15km outside the ring, the same in CZ’s.

 

[Han Zulu]

My understanding is that rings aren't that deep for any of our planets. And I suspect FD has used current knowledge and science to appropriately set the depths of the rings, so I'm not sure they should change it, unless there's evidence or some scientific argument that they should be deeper.

 

[DocLooshkin]

Hello, Mr Bl1p.


+1. I'm not an astronomer, but it's my understanding that the physics involved more or less insist upon relatively flat rings, under normal circumstances. Just how flat those rings can be is - I think - somewhat dependent on the magnetic field of the body it's orbiting and on the degree of perturbation exerted by moons in and around the ring system.

Saturn's rings are around 280,000 KM in diameter and about 1 KM thick at their chubbiest. The exoplanet J1407 b and the unknown body orbiting PDS 110 are both said to have ring systems at least 200 times larger - it seems reasonably likely that both will have patches, streams or constant rings notably thicker than Saturn's example, although I wouldn't care to guess by how much.

Moreover, the evidence of our own solar system suggests that cosmic collisions involving very large objects are not uncommon - and such collisions would undoubtedly produce large orbital debris fields which would be persistent for thousands of years. It seems quite likely that there would be at least a few of these eminently-exploitable fields in the bubble - and many more outside of it.

 

[varonica]

My understanding is that rings aren't that deep for any of our planets. And I suspect FD has used current knowledge and science to appropriately set the depths of the rings, so I'm not sure they should change it, unless there's evidence or some scientific argument that they should be deeper.

Agreed. There are some thing we can play around with, and there are some things we shouldn't play around with, the elite galaxy is supposed to be as accurate a model of our galaxy as possible, and fiddling with that model just to provide a few players with thicker rings isn't something that should be done. I'm certainly not an "immersion at all costs" type guy, but I fly a realistic galaxy, start playing around with the physics and model of he galaxy is a no no. They adjust the galaxy model sometimes to take into account new stuff, but it's based on evidence of what the galaxy is like, and that's the only changes we should make to the galaxy.

As I said I am sure there are other ways to give you a better gameplay experience that don't involve rebuilding the galaxy in your own fashion, explore them, thicker rings just aren't going to happen.

 

[Starwolfe]

Its a game. Deeper rings = more fun, so I say do it.

As stated, you can logically do it by altering ring depth to height to keep mass volume if you want to be picky. I mean its not like we've actually gotten a good look at most rings outside Sol anyway.

 

[varonica]

Its a game. Deeper rings = more fun, so I say do it.

As stated, you can logically do it by altering ring depth to height to keep mass volume if you want to be picky. I mean its not like we've actually gotten a good look at most rings outside Sol anyway.

As already said I am quite happy to ignore immersion for gameplay sake, however our ingame galaxy is designed to be as accurate a possible facsimile of the actual galaxy according to our current knowledge. Fiddling with the stellar forge to give thicker rings because gameplay is just not on, because then we no longer have a physically accurate galaxy, so why not change lots of other things for gameplay, thus rendering the entire thing pointless. I came here to adventure in a realistic galaxy, there are a lot of physicists and cosmologists who play the game because FDEV try as much as they can to render an accurate model. Because gameplay isn't enough to corrupt the entire point of the game, and that's to allow us to explore, adventure and fight in a realistic galaxy.

I don't play NMS, a lot of people here don't, and why, it's a galaxy, arguably they have legs and spacehips and pew pew and exploration, atmospheric planets with life, but while they claim to create an entire universe, they sacrificed the accuracy of their model for better gameplay, an average planet in NMS is 70km in radius, they don't model gravity, it's really fantasy not science fiction, it's unrealistic. If you want a game that sacrifices accuracy for gameplay try NMS, don't fiddle with our own galaxy.

And as far as saying we haven't seen what out there so we can do anything, I would suggest unless we have a theory that allows for thicker rings don't do it. The fact we only have our own solar system as an example isn't an argument for creating something that shouldn't exists according to our understanding of physics and motion and stellar and solar system formation. If we find something knew about the galaxy that changes our understanding then yes incorporate it, but gameplay shouldn't trump reality as far as the galactic model we play in is concerned.

 

[fus roh potato]

Rings around planets don't get thicker than a few meters and won't contain anything bigger than a pebble. It's all dust. What we see in Elite is not what's realistic, but rather something grossly thickened for the sake of an interesting combat experience.

What you should probably be after are simply asteroid fields or belts.

 

[BL1P]

As already said I am quite happy to ignore immersion for gameplay sake, however our ingame galaxy is designed to be as accurate a possible facsimile of the actual galaxy according to our current knowledge. Fiddling with the stellar forge to give thicker rings because gameplay is just not on, because then we no longer have a physically accurate galaxy, so why not change lots of other things for gameplay, thus rendering the entire thing pointless. I came here to adventure in a realistic galaxy, there are a lot of physicists and cosmologists who play the game because FDEV try as much as they can to render an accurate model. Because gameplay isn't enough to corrupt the entire point of the game, and that's to allow us to explore, adventure and fight in a realistic galaxy.

I don't play NMS, a lot of people here don't, and why, it's a galaxy, arguably they have legs and spacehips and pew pew and exploration, atmospheric planets with life, but while they claim to create an entire universe, they sacrificed the accuracy of their model for better gameplay, an average planet in NMS is 70km in radius, they don't model gravity, it's really fantasy not science fiction, it's unrealistic. If you want a game that sacrifices accuracy for gameplay try NMS, don't fiddle with our own galaxy.

And as far as saying we haven't seen what out there so we can do anything, I would suggest unless we have a theory that allows for thicker rings don't do it. The fact we only have our own solar system as an example isn't an argument for creating something that shouldn't exists according to our understanding of physics and motion and stellar and solar system formation. If we find something knew about the galaxy that changes our understanding then yes incorporate it, but gameplay shouldn't trump reality as far as the galactic model we play in is concerned.

I agree to all of that.

Though as it stands we know of only a few planetary ring sizes ((IRL) + (I think?)), As stated above the larger the body and the larger the ring, suggest that deeper rings are out there, and probably in large quantities.
I am not saying make all rings deeper depth, I am suggesting not all rings are as shallow as FDEV have made them.

It feels as if FDEV have created large variations in width but very little variation in depth. (I know sol sugests this is so, but we can postulate (big word for me) that there are much deeper rings than what we see in sol.
It would go a long way to creating much more enjoyable fights and mining. If FDEV just did some "funcky code magic" to make deeper rings based on Width of ring and Planetary size and "gravitational physicsy magical" stuff

As you can see I am not a professor of astrology

 

[Han Zulu]

As you can see I am not a professor of astrology

Astrology or astronomy? Not sure if star signs and constellations to predict your love life and luck at work would have anything to do with the thickness of a planetary ring ...

 

[varonica]

I agree to all of that.

Though as it stands we know of only a few planetary ring sizes ((IRL) + (I think?)), As stated above the larger the body and the larger the ring, suggest that deeper rings are out there, and probably in large quantities.
I am not saying make all rings deeper depth, I am suggesting not all rings are as shallow as FDEV have made them.

Based on? FDEV have created the universe taking into account all that we know. As I said if we find out more yes lets change to match, but what you are suggesting is changing it because you think. Just to have better gameplay. I am sure there are other ways to improve gameplay that don't break our current model of the galaxy but some people seem obsessed about the need to adjust the entire galaxy to fit their desires for thicker rings.

It feels as if FDEV have created large variations in width but very little variation in depth. (I know sol sugests this is so, but we can postulate (big word for me) that there are much deeper rings than what we see in sol.

Postulate; suggest or assume the existence, fact, or truth of (something) as a basis for reasoning, discussion, or belief.

At the moment you seem to be on the belief end of that description, and yes you can postulate all you want, but that's certainly not a basis for adjusting our galaxy model.

It would go a long way to creating much more enjoyable fights and mining. If FDEV just did some "funcky code magic" to make deeper rings based on Width of ring and Planetary size and "gravitational physicsy magical" stuff

They already do some unrealistic magic as far as ring behaviours are concerned, whether that's good or bad is relative. "Funcky code magic?" This is the basis of the entire galaxy, we already get complaints about bugs galore and you want to start fiddling with the core game code, the one that creates the galaxy? and gravitational physicy magical stuff? Physics follows rules, change the rules that create the galaxy and it just doesn't change the rings, it changes planet orbits, stellar asteroid fields and maybe even the existence the stars themselves, you can't just adjust the physics to make bigger thicker rings without affecting everything else. I would suggest that any thicker rings would need to be hand crafted and only in specific solar systems so as not to affect the rest of the galaxy. The only reason we have a galaxy is because of procedural generation, everything else other than the galaxy itself is hand crafted.

As you can see I am not a professor of astrology

Leave the creation of the galaxy to astronomers then, FDEV emply them you know, just to work on the Stellar Forge to make sure it is as realistic as possible, but if you can convince them using science instead of wishful thinking that rings should be thicker I am sure they will seriously look at it. Right now you are spending so much time obsessing over thicker rings that you disregard anything else that may add to the gameplay. Right now just playing around mining and fighting in the rings is unrealistic because it doesn't take into account orbital mechanics, you can sit in space at zero kps and mine whereas your average rock in a planetary ring would actually be travelling at 60+kps. Sure most ship could keep up, but can you imagine mining while at the same time chasing a rock at 60kps, or worse dogfighting with an enemy with thousands of rocks zooming by at 60kps. Basically FDEV have given you a static playground where there should be dynamic orbital motion just to give you a bit of gameplay. Give it up with the thicker rings, you won't convince anyone unless you come up with some actual astronomy or physics to back your position up, then I will take it seriously, and would even assist you, but I won't back you or do anything based on wishful thinking.

 

[Red Anders]

I agree to all of that.

Though as it stands we know of only a few planetary ring sizes ((IRL) + (I think?)), As stated above the larger the body and the larger the ring, suggest that deeper rings are out there, and probably in large quantities.
I am not saying make all rings deeper depth, I am suggesting not all rings are as shallow as FDEV have made them.

It feels as if FDEV have created large variations in width but very little variation in depth. (I know sol sugests this is so, but we can postulate (big word for me) that there are much deeper rings than what we see in sol.
It would go a long way to creating much more enjoyable fights and mining. If FDEV just did some "funcky code magic" to make deeper rings based on Width of ring and Planetary size and "gravitational physicsy magical" stuff

As you can see I am not a professor of astrology

Assuming you meant astronomy, here's the thing. The dev responsible for the core work on the stellar forge (Dr Anthony Ross) has a Masters degree in physics with astrophysics and cosmology and in subsequently obtaining his PhD, he did his doctoral studies in the area of high energy particle physics.

This suggests to me quite strongly that he has a far better idea of what is and is not likely in the real galaxy than either you or I.

This is the thing with realism and Elite. They didn't employ a game programmer with an interest in astronomy and cosmology to create the galaxy, they employed a scientist who wanted to work for a game studio. That's why they don't need to worry about 'funky code magic' and 'gravitational physicy magical stuff', they have someone who is perfectly capable of delivering the former, based on a very solid understanding of the latter.

This might be a bit too full-on for you in terms of the science but if you want to get a proper idea of the amount of technical complexity involved in creating the galaxy we play in, here's the man himself explaining it. For an hour.

[video=youtube;Vz3nhCykZNw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz3nhCykZNw[/video]

 

[DocLooshkin]

The dev responsible for the core work on the stellar forge (Dr Anthony Ross) has a Masters degree in physics with astrophysics and cosmology and in subsequently obtaining his PhD, he did his doctoral studies in the area of high energy particle physics. [...] This suggests to me quite strongly that he has a far better idea of what is and is not likely in the real galaxy than either you or I.

Hello, Mr Anders.

This is all very well, but one need only go and visit Saturn to see how accurately the game depicts ring systems.

In real life, it's apparently mostly ice particles, with occasional moonlets here and there.
In ED, it's chock-full of ice asteroids.

In real life, it's a complex three-dimensional structure, with spokes and corrugations that rise and fall kilometres from the orbital plane and moonlets drawing all manner of swirly patterns through it.
In ED, it's as flat as a pancake, with no such complexity.

ED's version of Saturn's rings doesn't seem to be factually accurate.
FD have used their artistic license and the game is all the better for it.
A little more inaccuracy for gameplay's sake really won't hurt.

 

[BL1P]

Hello, Mr Anders.

This is all very well, but one need only go and visit Saturn to see how accurately the game depicts ring systems.

In real life, it's apparently mostly ice particles, with occasional moonlets here and there.
In ED, it's chock-full of ice asteroids.

In real life, it's a complex three-dimensional structure, with spokes and corrugations that rise and fall kilometres from the orbital plane and moonlets drawing all manner of swirly patterns through it.
In ED, it's as flat as a pancake, with no such complexity.

ED's version of Saturn's rings doesn't seem to be factually accurate.
FD have used their artistic license and the game is all the better for it.
A little more inaccuracy for gameplay's sake really won't hurt.

+1 to that.

 

[varonica]

Hello, Mr Anders.

This is all very well, but one need only go and visit Saturn to see how accurately the game depicts ring systems.

In real life, it's apparently mostly ice particles, with occasional moonlets here and there.
In ED, it's chock-full of ice asteroids.

In real life, it's a complex three-dimensional structure, with spokes and corrugations that rise and fall kilometres from the orbital plane and moonlets drawing all manner of swirly patterns through it.
In ED, it's as flat as a pancake, with no such complexity.

ED's version of Saturn's rings doesn't seem to be factually accurate.
FD have used their artistic license and the game is all the better for it.
A little more inaccuracy for gameplay's sake really won't hurt.

It's not anything to do with artistic licence, it's to do with the way physics work, modelling the complexity of Saturn's ring system may certainly be beyond our current abilities, but if you are modelling the basic physics accurately you will get a given result, you alter the rules of the physics in ED to get thicker rings who know what else will be affected, certainly not you or I, but I suspect the devs have people who do know. And yes, the modelling is not anywhere near as accurate as real life because I suspect the cpu time required to generate a 100% accurate galaxy will take as long as, well the galaxy has existed because it would require us to model the galaxy down to subatomic level.

As is our current ships couldn't even mine or dogfight in the rings if they behaved as they do in real life, they generate a static instance for us to play in based on the properties of the ring system. And it does this for every one of the trillion or so ring systems in the entire galaxy, it's how procedural generation works. Start playing with your inputs and who know what will come out at the other end, you are trying to remodel the entire galaxy based on what is basically a whim.

There are other ways to provide what the OP wants without remodelling several trillion ring systems, I just don't understand what the obsession is with badgering FDEV to break their galaxy model, it makes no sense.

 

[Lucifera Danzig]

Hello, Mr Anders.

This is all very well, but one need only go and visit Saturn to see how accurately the game depicts ring systems.

In real life, it's apparently mostly ice particles, with occasional moonlets here and there.
In ED, it's chock-full of ice asteroids.

No, actually, in RL it's nothing like you describe.

https://www.space.com/23235-rings-of-saturn.html

Excerpt:
"Saturn's rings are made up of billions of particles ranging from grains of sand to mountain-size chunks. Composed predominantly of water-ice, the rings also draw in rocky meteoroids as they travel through space."

Also, the view on approach to Saturn's rings are echoed very nicely in ED: