Beyond update almost complete. Its time to talk about COMBAT!!

Seriously?!? The only part of this game that's had any love for the last 3 years is combat...

  • Ship launched fighters
  • More and more combat missions
  • Multi-crew
  • Thargoids
  • Guardian Fighters
  • Combat oriented ships
  • Wings
  • Squadrons


Need I continue? Do you really think they need to add more combat oriented stuff? This is not a combat game (or wasn't intended to be).

This! ^



Personally now exploration and mining has had love I'm hopeful Piracy may be one of the next hitters as well as perhaps another round of missions and/or trading upgrades. Maybe power-play and/or BGS too. Although if I'm realistic I'd expect the next updates to be content ones. Volcanic planet landing, gas giant landing perhaps. Who knows whats next on FD's to-do list.


Also if combat were to be the next major upgrade point I'd be arguing on a totally different standpoint:
-Make War more dynamic and better than random clusters of ships, combat around stations etc. Objectives beyond kill as many ships as possible.
-Fix CZ agro mechanic
-Make Capital ships more deadly, mobile rather than static etc.
-Planetside combat in a proper way with battles and stuff happening around ground installations - Could be linked with missions to infiltrate the ground base and disable their weapons before an assault starts etc.



Stuff like that would be my preference instead of tweaking turrets and torpedoes. In terms of points 2 and 3 - There are significantly strong enemies in the game, try taking on ATR, Thargoids, wing assassination missions etc. It's just about possible in one ship but exceptionally difficult. Also If PvE has become boring and you have god level engineered ships I advise PvP (which I'm shocked to hear myself say), get in a tournament group that regularly run fights and sessions or engage in powerplay combat against other groups.

As for small vs medium vs large ships I see your point and agree. There is a degree of "thats the upgrade path" in the same way trade ships get bigger for more cargo. Personally I can see my suggestions above making small/medium combat ships relevant for things like planet-side combat where gravity affects ships and the small ones have an advantage due to their acceleration/turn rates and can use specialist fits like force shells to take on larger vessels. Or the war improvements, possibly one war scenario can be an attack/defend one where a small ship may be useful to break through a blockade and hit a vital target that one side was trying to defend.
 
I would support new combat scenarios, more mission types related to combat, station-based combat (siege, blockade runs, sabotage, etc.), but not a whole bunch of effort on balancing weapons, new weapon types.

FDEV is commited to maintaining legacy mods, therefore committed to maintaining imbalance.

Nope, IIRC they are going to do a balance pass on the legacy PA's its just not a priority.

Only a tiny number of grindlords have them, or care about keeping them, or removing them most players just don't care.

FDEV is committed to p2p, so there will always be softness in the effectiveness of pvp experiences.

Its a bit late to add a subscription fee or alter the networking really. That argument was lost five years ago and them changing it now is an unrealistic expectation.

FDEV is committed to not have PVP/WVW spaces, with rankings and rewards so pvp will always be a sideshow.

Except CQC which is pure PVP, and open which means the whole galaxy is PVP.
 
I don’t want to be rude or offensive (especially in today’s heightened era of sensibility) but to be quite frank


SOD COMBAT it’s got enough toys

(sorry if I offended anyone called frank but if I used the name bill he’d be just as offended and no one would understand what I was meaning)
 
I don’t want to be rude or offensive (especially in today’s heightened era of sensibility) but to be quite frank


SOD COMBAT it’s got enough toys

(sorry if I offended anyone called frank but if I used the name bill he’d be just as offended and no one would understand what I was meaning)

[video=youtube;_h7nzrVJCJ0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h7nzrVJCJ0[/video]...
 
Nope, IIRC they are going to do a balance pass on the legacy PA's its just not a priority.
Only a tiny number of grindlords have them, or care about keeping them, or removing them most players just don't care.
Its a bit late to add a subscription fee or alter the networking really. That argument was lost five years ago and them changing it now is an unrealistic expectation.
Except CQC which is pure PVP, and open which means the whole galaxy is PVP.
1) It's not just Plasma.
2) Give me a list of AAA MMOs that require monthly substription for mega servers. (GW2-NO, ESO-NO, WOW-NO, BD-NO, SWOTOR-NO). So it's an FDEV thing, not a genre thing.
3) No mechanic for PVP ranking, no game-based rewards based on PVP ranking, no WVW instances with ranking and rewards.

PVP is not a serious commitment as a game feature. It is possible, but there aren't the game structures to support it in a practical way. It's an FDEV choice.
 
ok ok i got it 90% of the posters do not want new content nor balance adjustments. They are happy when they get SLFs and Engineers and be op and just pwnz everything. Maybe i am too limited in my imagination to not appreciate these MASSIVE content updates. Maybe i should just sit down in my sidey and kill Anacondas and Thargoids so the NPC dont think i am lame and unskilled r-right ? right?
 
1) It's not just Plasma.

Never mind eh most people never bothered in the first place or switched to the new ones..

2) Give me a list of AAA MMOs that require monthly substription for mega servers. (GW2-NO, ESO-NO, WOW-NO, BD-NO, SWOTOR-NO). So it's an FDEV thing, not a genre thing.

No, if you want to bring other totally irrelevant games into this you can do your own research.

This game was made P2P and that information was easily available, if that's an issue for you then you really shouldn't have bought it at all.

3) No mechanic for PVP ranking, no game-based rewards based on PVP ranking, no WVW instances with ranking and rewards.

CQC rankings are pure PVP and there are rewards for it.

PVP is not a serious commitment as a game feature. It is possible, but there aren't the game structures to support it in a practical way. It's an FDEV choice.

No its an optional thing that's entirely down to player choice. You are free to set up whatever PVP stuff you like, most "PVPers" just choose not to. The PVP hubs in Sun Tu anyone can jump on in if they like.
 
ok ok i got it 90% of the posters do not want new content nor balance adjustments. They are happy when they get SLFs and Engineers and be op and just pwnz everything. Maybe i am too limited in my imagination to not appreciate these MASSIVE content updates. Maybe i should just sit down in my sidey and kill Anacondas and Thargoids so the NPC dont think i am lame and unskilled r-right ? right?

Maybe you should be a bit more sarcastic, that will surely sway a few to your point of view. :)
 
Maybe you should be a bit more sarcastic, that will surely sway a few to your point of view. :)

actually that was my way to capitulate. cant compete against the 90%. thankfully x4 foundations coming in 2 weeks so i can let out my frustration to some other gaming company yikes!
 
Combat got most of Chapter 2.
Every week it was Buff this, nerf that, nuff this, burf that.

Mines use to be a freighter caprain’s best friend, now they almost too much trouble to use.

Combat needs left alone until after atmospheric landings. Possibly Earth’s moon.
 
ok ok i got it 90% of the posters do not want new content nor balance adjustments. They are happy when they get SLFs and Engineers and be op and just pwnz everything. Maybe i am too limited in my imagination to not appreciate these MASSIVE content updates. Maybe i should just sit down in my sidey and kill Anacondas and Thargoids so the NPC dont think i am lame and unskilled r-right ? right?

So you are complaining about being 90% disagree with you. Let me explain why that's silly:

Some Elite players don't do combat at all.
Of those that do combat the vast majority will mix in other activities so combat isn't their main priority.
Of those that do combat many will be satisfied as things are (otherwise there'd be more threads).
Also there will be lots and lots of people who have issues with combat but their issues are different to your issues.

When you take those statements into account you are always in a minority because Elite is big enough that there are tons of different ways people approach the game with different opinions and mindsets. If you have an opinion or request you are not there to get 100% approval because you never ever will, there is always someone who will disagree.

Your job if you want to make things happen is to persuade people to be invested in your idea. Get those that don't really care to take your side! There's some things you have said that are legitimate issues and need fixing but you fail to realise that not everyone sees the world through your eyes and your priorities are not everyone else's priorities.


Also then saying the rest of us do not want new content nor balance adjustments you just come across as a fool. Lets be honest your sarcasm levels are off the chart on that reply. For me personally I agree there are balance issues and I posted a proper response a page or so ago but you have done nothing to persuade me that your points are the number 1 thing that Elite needs to do right now and by acting that way I'm going to disagree just on principal.

Enjoy X4 anyway.
 
So you are complaining about being 90% disagree with you. Let me explain why that's silly:

Some Elite players don't do combat at all.
Of those that do combat the vast majority will mix in other activities so combat isn't their main priority.
Of those that do combat many will be satisfied as things are (otherwise there'd be more threads).
Also there will be lots and lots of people who have issues with combat but their issues are different to your issues.

When you take those statements into account you are always in a minority because Elite is big enough that there are tons of different ways people approach the game with different opinions and mindsets. If you have an opinion or request you are not there to get 100% approval because you never ever will, there is always someone who will disagree.

Your job if you want to make things happen is to persuade people to be invested in your idea. Get those that don't really care to take your side! There's some things you have said that are legitimate issues and need fixing but you fail to realise that not everyone sees the world through your eyes and your priorities are not everyone else's priorities.


Also then saying the rest of us do not want new content nor balance adjustments you just come across as a fool. Lets be honest your sarcasm levels are off the chart on that reply. For me personally I agree there are balance issues and I posted a proper response a page or so ago but you have done nothing to persuade me that your points are the number 1 thing that Elite needs to do right now and by acting that way I'm going to disagree just on principal.

Enjoy X4 anyway.

i dont think you get why i used sarcasm. If you read carfully its literally 90% that disagree with me and just a few voices that agree.

This was intended to be a discussion about combat balance and stuff, yet almost nobody contributes with suggestions, but instead say what else is lacking in the game which is totally off topic, or that everything is fine as it is.

I do not see it as my job to convince the masses of people. If they do not want change, they simply dont want.
I was surprised that almost no one agrees with me so its seems i dont have touch with the majority of players.
But this is the way it goes, either people like your suggestion or they think its garbage. It seems the vast majority is not interested in combat enhancements and combat related stuff.
 
It seems the vast majority is not interested in combat enhancements and combat related stuff.

Not when that's essentially all we've had for years. Yes combat is not balanced, but Trading has gone to hell in a hand-cart and is basically impossible to make any money at unless you use 3rd party applications. Missions are totally borked with wing based gather missions actually rewarding you with less than a third of what it has cost to buy the materials. Mining is a complete dogs dinner (and if the Beta is anything to go by will only get worse and less profitable after the update). Exploration still has almost no love, the new mini game is painful, and we have to bind 48 new keys just to do it (slight exaggeration but essentially true), and the whole mode thing makes fire groups and weapon management into a nightmare.

There are sooooo many things to fix before looking at combat again. I think that would just drive half the player base away from the game finally...

Ironically, if you look on the Jurrasic forums, their players have essentially the same kind of complaints (stop giving us more dinosaurs [ships] no-one wants or asked for, and give us more content to the existing game). If you read all the forums, you begin to see a pattern to FDev's development methodology.
 
It seems the vast majority is not interested in combat enhancements and combat related stuff.

I think most of us feel that combat is by far the strongest aspect of the game simply because it's gotten the lion's share of development over the past four years. Could it still use some improving? Sure. However, it's way past time to develop the rest of the game and to bring the rest up to combat's level first, THEN go back to combat and spruce it up.

I mean even in 3.3, the mining and exploration major overhaul update, there is STILL a good amount of combat improvements coming too, despite combat getting a LOT of stuff in Beyond already this year. 5 of the last 7 new ships have been combat ships, plus the 3 new combat SLF's added too. Tons of Thargoid combat content this year, improved CZ's and combat signal sources, combat against mega ships, on and on.

Nope, I'd say the development focus needs to stay on the non combat stuff for a while yet first. They need to catch up to where combat is at. Honestly pirating and smuggling should really be the next major focus for development in my opinion, not to mention salvaging and S&R gameplay.
 
Hey Stig - I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying PVP needs attention. I'm saying serious PVP can't be a thing by intentional design. There are tons of other places that can get far better within the p2p structure outside of pvp. I'm on the side of ignore pvp for other stuffs because of the core limits of the game design. I bet we're going to see 4 more medium fighters though...
 
Explorers got their cookies finally. Its time for Combat players to receive some love now.

I want to discuss with you about the design philosophy for certain weapons and ships, as well as combat scenarios.
There is still much potential Frontier didnt make use of and plenty modules and ships that fall behind.

Lets talk about what the average Player thinks:

1. When I fight, I want to be as effective as possible

This thinking leads players to use certain ship and weapon Metas.
For PVP this is perfectly acceptable - the Meta is fixed weapons, mostly PA and Rail. Only skill determines which player will win.
PVP Meta ships are mostly FAS, Fer De Lance, Krait Mk2
Great!

How about PVE?
The Meta is gimbal weapons preferable Lasers and Multicannons - fixed weapons require much more effort then is actually needed to fight NPC, thus they should be a dedicated PVP choice only.
You can use almost every ship to engange in PVE, but for sustained combat preferable choices are Anaconda, Fer de Lance, Corvette, maybe Python and Krait too. Most other ships are not tanky enough, lack in DPS, or require much more use of skill.
Turret use is not encouraged as their DPS is just way to low!
In my opinion this is a major design flaw, as combat against NPCs should force you to engange many enemies at once.
Turrets should be a help to fight off small annoying ships, while you can stay focused on the bigger threats. The best example are the two small weapon slots of the Anaconda. They are placed so that they have a very limited fire arc and are therefore the best place to use turrets for. Other ships have these options as well and turret use should be encouraged while fighting NPCs.
Another example are mining ships. A Lakon type 9 miner should not be forced to stop his mining operations just because some nasty sidey or eagle is poking him from behind. Chasing them can be very annoying! Turrets should help to kill of the small threats, but at the same time they should not be completly useless if an Anaconda starts to look what you have in your cargo.

2. My ship is too strong. PVE is boring

The consequence of beeing as effective as possible leads ultimatly to this.
Enemies in Elite Dangerous do not scale. First, this is a good decision!
But fighting NPC in maximum engineered ships gets very boring over time unless you are doing it for the money and materials.
WE NEED BOSS FIGHTS AND REAL ELITE ENEMIES!
Players should be able to find at least equal Elite Enemies with engineered ships, if they want to. From missions, POIs, etc. Those should be a lot harder to deal with it (like when fighting Thargoid ships) and be very rewarding in terms of money or special itmes. You can decide what would be a good drop from such an enemy.
There also should be boss fights that you can not take on on your own, no matter how skilled you are. You need the help of other pilots to kill those mighty pirate lords, Mafia, Drug Lords, desperated military officers, Thargoid motherships and so on.

3. Why should I fly with a small ship when I can have a big one?

So true.. There is no reason unless you want to make combat artifically difficult for you, or simply because you dont have the credits.
Maybe they are good for smuggling, but why should they be restricted to just one activity?
What is the major difference between small ships and big ships? Its their manouverbility and speed.
Why not introduce high speed pursuits where big ships are completly useless but small and nimble ships can chase some robbers that stole the Mona Lisa from XY Station?
They dont want to fight, they just want to get away with it and you must chase them as fast as possible. They try to get off your rader by trying to fly through a small canyon or a very dense asteroid field. Who has the better control over their ship when flying at high speeds, avoiding obstacles, fighting gravitaional effects? And then they launch a rocket or EMP mine to stop you from chasing them.
Another thing is interdicting. It should be significantly harder to interdict a small ship with a big ship as they should have a much easier time to avoid interdiction. Give the interdictor role to the dedicated fighter. They should be your choice for 1v1 engagements. Big ships should be your dedicated assault ship to fight waves of enemies.

4. I dont use missles/torpedos. I cant kill even one enemy with a full load of ammo

Missles have been the weapon of choice for griefers. One or two volleys and most ships go down. The nerf was necessary, but rendered this weapon type completly useless.
The damage output vs ammo is the worst out of all weapons.
Im not sure how to adress this, but a possibility would be to siginificantly buff the damage of missles against NPCs, or make it harder to lock on the target.
Another possibility could be specialized types of missles that serve less as a weapon, but more as a utility for example shield breakers for resistance debuffs, hull crackers for armer resistace debuffs, disruptor for module malfuction or temporay shut downs (like thargoid), caustic for applied damage over time once the shields are down, high explosives for trajectory disruptions, Napalm for overheating and so on.


How would YOU improve todays combat mechanics of Elite Dangerous?

1/ The scan should reveal what the weapons and engineering threat level of the scanned ship has installed to determine a fight or flight response instead of nerfing weapon dps. The load out scan info should take and extra 2-8 seconds scanning to get the info. It will be probably be most effective for 1v1 pvp or pve with dangerous or above rank.

2/ Thruster damage should have 4 degrees of damage so it affects how a ship will move. eg, A damage to the side will lower the thrust from the side.

3/ Take away heal beams because it is unrealistic and replace with faster repair limpets that can be used during battle and deployable to assist a wing pilot or SLF. Otherwise alter it so that if you use a heal beam to help your wing pilot then your shield health lowers making it a shield power transfer.

4/ Have a variety of specialised missiles and torpedoes that behave or do damage in various ways eg. shield disruptor torpedo that will partially lower a shields kinetic damage protection for a few seconds.

5/ Make chaff launchers, point defense, large hardpoints and shield boosters to have lower hp so its easier to make the target ship's modules less effective. The combat will be definitely be different and possibly less predictable.

6/ Ship COVAS should announce which modules have are hit and its damage and what percentage during battle to add stress for a CMDR. Thresholds adjustable and modules selectable for reports.

7/ Have some negotiation during battle like instant taunt dialogue or surrender/ plea for mercy with NPC responding according to random or pre-determined AI rules.

8/ Rank or alliances with system factions should be a factor to determine response time of system authorities with the MF's influence level determining amount of authority ships that respond.

9/ Include a distress call for CMDR so that when they are allied and within a MF's or even a Power's system of influence then they can get a wing assist but such favors will lower their reputation or PP rank/rating. The wing assist would help to combat gankers/griefers somewhat and give a CMDR more reason to support factions and powers and a great reason to manipulate BGS expansion.
 
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