BGS: remove lockdown state

[iFred]

It´s a good reason to put the game aside when a couple of "terrorists" are able to manipulate the BGS in this simple and effective way without others having the possibilities to react. Also the "only once a day"-tick is pretty much not the best design decision (I stated that 3 years ago already).

I would like to see this removed or well overhauled.

I mean, just because some engineered modules have been removed... there´s no need to terrorize other people, isnt it?

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Isn't clearing a lockdown easy?
Just do some bounty hunting...?

 

[iFred]

Isn't clearing a lockdown easy?
Just do some bounty hunting...?

It´s unbalanced. When there´s no RES and High Security it simply spawns more targets for the "bad ones". Means: 100 Security ships, 1 pirate. Not a good deal

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Lockdown can also be removed by pushing the faction into a more urgent BGS state (Expansion, Retreat, War, Civil War or Election definitely count; Investment might) or even indefinitely prevented by keeping the faction in one of those more urgent states at all times.

That's probably not useful in the case of the Pleiades CG if there hasn't been preparation done already - as those states all have pending durations >= 3 days - but does provide ways that a faction more generally can be defended against lockdowns.

Perhaps - given the apparent susceptibility of the Pleiades factions to Lockdowns and their regular role as CG hosts - player groups from the associated superpowers could take better care of them by trying to have a superseding state always active or pending?

 

[Jukelo]

It´s unbalanced. When there´s no RES and High Security it simply spawns more targets for the "bad ones". Means: 100 Security ships, 1 pirate. Not a good deal

Destroying is always easier than building, a rule that ought to be even more true in a dystopian universe like ED's.

 

[Riverside]

Destroying is always easier than building, a rule that ought to be even more true in a dystopian universe like ED's.

This is a good point.

Some thoughts from another thread, seems more on-topic here than there:

There are two ways to troll the BGS I think, putting a system into lockdown by cop killing, and UA activity.

I think the UA properties are a clever mechanic adding some depth to the game, but maybe it is too easy for a solo player to 'damage' a station, because by the time it's effect is noticed a significant amount of meta-alloy is required to repair the station. This could be mitigated by having the black market be the first thing disabled (other stuff could be disabled at the same time). The gameplay remains (but agency is reduced a little), but it reduces the effect a single player can have on a large system. I only have a rudimentary understanding of this mechanism though.

For cop killing I suppose a similar solution could be applied in the sense that the effect of an individual player could be reduced. As I understand it it takes fewer bounties gained killed to bring about lockdown than bounties handed in, plus gaining a bounty has an instant effect whereas bounties must be returned to port. PvP can help in both directions increasing agency, by either bounty hunting or popping bounty hunters before they can claim their reward.
So perhaps a rebalance of the work required to induce lockdown, or linking effort required to player traffic might help here.

In terms of karma I'm not sure whether it should apply at all. Whether a particular UA bombing event or lockdown triggered (or a boom) is good or bad much more subjective than killing a clean Cmdr IMO.

 

[TheSynopticVision]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-07-15-elite-dangerous-players-accuse-frontier-of-god-modding

12 months ago.

 

[h347h]

No removing it is just dumbing the game down for the more casual gamer types.

Instead they should give better indicators in the system it's self and have missions spawn that give players a chance to fight back against actions other players are doing.

The players that are going to just not play during things like lockdown are not the audience FD should be looking to tailor the BGS for.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

If anything, causing Lockdown via Authority-Killing might be too easy.

I've only tried Anti-Authority warfare during one of the Betas - but it was basically laughably easy all alone and in a sufficiently modded Combat Ship.
System Authority essentially is rendered to be nothing but a helpless bunch of feeders into a killing frenzy. They're a joke.

No escalation, no limiter = failure to provide System Security. Which happens to be their primary job.
(anyone remember that Livestream where the poor Dev was tasked to gather Bounty Vouchers for a live CG? And what happened to him - over and over and over again - in a HighRES? So much for "Authority"...)

In my world, Players attempting to gank Authority Ships in High Security Systems would all face rebuy screens or heavy repair bills within 5 Minutes or less.
With all follow-up attempts just to enter the same System again being greeted by being chain-interdicted nonstop by System Defense Forces and Authority.
Trying that in HighSec space should be fairly close to being "NPC assisted suicide".

PS.
Notably, the only time I've ever seen System Authority being actual Authority was during the V2.1 original NPC buff time.
Now that was a force to be reckoned with.

I reckon it would help to move System Authority and System Defense Forces back into that (bug-fixed) V2.1 mode.
...and it would help to finally fix the bugged System Defence Force NPCs that after 2 years (!) still don't carry the proper Equipment to KWS a Player after an interdiction - and basically no absolutely nothing unless attacked.

The only alternative would be to make Lockdown at least a non-global State, thus affecting only specific Systems.

And on the terms of "Information handling", it sure would help to display such activities somewhere on the News Board.
As it stands now, Non-Superpower Factions don't even have a Top 5 Bounty Board to them. So no means to even identify acts of Terrorism, let alone idenfity the suspects.

 

[Riverside]

...and it would help to finally fix the bugged System Defence Force NPCs that after 2 years (!) still don't carry the proper Equipment to KWS a Player after an interdiction - and basically no absolutely nothing unless attacked.

System Authority ships are only concerned with local crimes, bounties that do not require a KWS and illegal cargo, which is what they scan for. Bounty Hunters carry KWS to improve their payout. If (for example) you are a hero to the empire and have a huge Fed bounty why would an imp cop care?

A solution could be to introduce superpower bounties like NPCs have, that would be visible in the relevant territory without requiring a KWS.

 

[Schlack]

As others have noted there are other BGS mechanisms available to end lockdown. This is emergent BGS gameplay. Space psychos try to shut down a CG/system triggering a response.

We have fuel rats and those that patrol the newbie areas. Is there not an opportunity for CG rats to defend CGs from such attacks?

I would prefer not to remove another BGS tool/mechanic at this time. Superpower bounties are practically useless save in certain circumstances - we need more mechanisms not less. There could of course be more info in game about what is occurring e.g. A message from the faction saying murder rate increasing, we need to do something to avoid lockdown. While such info is available via the crime and bounty reports, it is not immediately apparent to the more casual player who might have an interest in helping.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

System Authority ships are only concerned with local crimes, bounties that do not require a KWS and illegal cargo, which is what they scan for. Bounty Hunters carry KWS to improve their payout. If (for example) you are a hero to the empire and have a huge Fed bounty why would an imp cop care?

A solution could be to introduce superpower bounties like NPCs have, that would be visible in the relevant territory without requiring a KWS.

The problem is, System Defence Force Ships don't even scan the interdicted Player (wasn't talking about Authority Vessels).
Thus - doesn't matter if a local Bounty is present and Player is Wanted. System Defence Force NPCs will simply
- wander off (not carrying any Scanner)
- or do a Cargo Scan (wrong Equipment, irrelevant and won't trigger Wanted/Local Bounty aggression), then wander off
(as Defense Force Ships aren't used for escalation, it's not too important anyway)

IMHO, for most Players, Lockdown is mostly nasty because
- they don't see it coming
- the means to end it can all come with undesired requirements (depends on location and the overall scenario the Faction is operating in)

 

[Riverside]

The problem is, System Defence Force Ships don't even scan the interdicted Player.
Thus - doesn't matter if a local Bounty is present and Player is Wanted. System Defence Force NPCs will simply
- wander off (not carrying any Scanner)
- or do a Cargo Scan (wrong Equipment, irrelevant and won't trigger Wanted/Local Bounty aggression), then wander off

They will manifest scan you if you give them the opportunity (eg just sit there rather than doing a runner), obviously part of that activity would pick up a local bounty. I could see an argument for being less lenient on the player but I don't think it's a bug, just another part of the game that might benefit from a rebalance or extra complexity.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

They will manifest scan you if you give them the opportunity (eg just sit there rather than doing a runner), obviously part of that activity would pick up a local bounty. I could see an argument for being less lenient on the player but I don't think it's a bug, just another part of the game that might benefit from a rebalance or extra complexity.

I think you're confusing System Authority with System Defense Force
(I amended my previous post to make that more clear)

 

[your mom]

Yes it's emergent gameplay.... but is it good gameplay? As others have stated, it needs to be made clear what is happening and why... and ways to counter it also made clear (I like the idea of missions specific to players "manipulating" the bgs). Wihout diluting the core game, it still needs to be kept somewhat "casual friendly" or it will die...

 

[PeLucheuh]

It´s a good reason to put the game aside when a couple of "terrorists" are able to manipulate the BGS in this simple and effective way without others having the possibilities to react. Also the "only once a day"-tick is pretty much not the best design decision (I stated that 3 years ago already).

I would like to see this removed or well overhauled.

I mean, just because some engineered modules have been removed... there´s no need to terrorize other people, isnt it?

Everyone can equaly impact the BGS. And you know what ? You have the same impact without facing same risk from your safe space.

I would like to see people understand how the game works and stop making assumptions.

Removing exploited modules was the right thing to do but all other older exploit have not been touched like serial combat logger or 17 draconis/rank/ship exploiters... Also the BGS protest initiative has nothing to do with this.

Last point, the massive use of engineers exploit by PvPers put on the spotlight how RNGneers design is bad and have to be reworked (no more unfun heavy time grinding wasted by RNG^3)

 

[Schlack]

(I like the idea of missions specific to players "manipulating" the bgs)

These exist. The are called missions . The mission screens are not bad about describing the effects. For instance, Kill pirate missions reduce lockdown (if I recall correctly). Other missions (from other systems even) can have the opposite effect.

Problem is not everyone is interested. Many (filthy) casuals are interested in the cash alone and are not bothered by the BGS effects.

 

[MottiKhan]

As far as the BGS goes, lockdown seems to be fairly well balanced imo. You can use it in extreme cases to protect your faction, so it can be a positive state if used correctly.

It's also a way to effectively blockade certain CGs if you do enough preparation. Absent of other tools to blockade CGs, it's only fair to leave it in. There's a way to counter it if you have enough motivation.

It's not always time to gather around the campfire and sing songs. Sometimes, things need to be done.

 

[Riverside]

I think you're confusing System Authority with System Defense Force
(I amended my previous post to make that more clear)

IME System Defence Force are the ones that interdict then just fly away, I agree they should do something even if it's just warn you there is a war in the system, they are looking for insurgents & to be careful or whatever. I was talking about the Authority ships that show up if you have report crimes on, and fly around station entrances.

They could do more, but I don't think the lack of a KWS is a bug.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

As it stands now, Non-Superpower Factions don't even have a Top 5 Bounty Board to them. So no means to even identify acts of Terrorism, let alone idenfity the suspects.

They do - we regularly have that item on local Galnets out in Colonia (rarely terrorism, more often it's someone not checking their targets in a RES or running semi-legal missions) where there are no superpower factions at all.

Maybe people are just routinely clearing the bounties they acquire with a Sidewinder?