General / Off-Topic Blatant and Obvious !!!

[Javert]

Well I do remember some months ago that verminstar specifically stated that he himself had been given a pay cut and/or lost his job because of cheap immigrant labour coming in to the country. Even the statistics seem to show that under some economic conditions, mass immigration of labour in low skilled job areas has a small but detectable downward pressure on wages.

Problem is, this small downward pressure shows up as small in the stats, but maybe it's actually a massive problem for small numbers of people I.e. They are actually losing their job or taking a pay cut. If you have personally taken a pay cut because of lower paid workers coming from another country prepared to work for less money, it's kind of understandable for you to see that as an issue. If there are people who have legitimately lost their jobs or had wages cut because of immigration that's going to weigh heavy on their opinion when it comes to voting time.

We can say, oh but the data shows that immigration is good for the economy overall - that may be true, but if you happen to be one of the losers, it's scant compensation.

Thing is though, verminstar said a few times that it's not his job to fix the problem, only point out that he is not happy with his vote. At this point others can then say the reverse - it's actually not our problem to fix inequality across the world and that's not what the recent votes were about. Brexit for example, the only question asked was, should UK be in the EU or not? There were no options provided about solutions to world poverty or wage inequality, and back at the time, even leave campaign were not saying that they were going to reduce immigration, just that they wanted to have full control of which countries people were immigrating from.

Probably, what a lot of people want, is a secure job or secure stream of income, with enough money to have a reasonably good life, and the prospect of a happy retirement not lived in poverty. Many people don't have that and see that keeping the world on current trajectory, doesn't have any hope of achieving it.

Now leaving the EU or electing Donald Trump is arguably not likely to achieve that, but maybe that shows how desperate and hopeless a lot of people feel if they are prepared to take such unlikely gambles in an attempt to get a better life.

 

[xondk]

Sorry about another Trump related thread, but this is driving me crazy, how can the Trump supporters not see it ? He has no plan or desire to keep America safe from terror by doing this ban, let's assume i wanted to ban Muslims from certain countries like the Trump supporters do, first i'd be asking why Trump excludes Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (two biggest exporters of terror), second i'd be asking "hey Donald, is it because you have business interests in the KSA ? Third, If it's not really a Muslim ban then why are you prioritising the entry of Christians ? Four, Why won't he do this through the proper channels ? Perhaps he does not like the US constitution which also prohibits the religious test. My fith and final point, obvious to everyone that is not completely blind and deaf, how can anyone believe this guy ? Campaigns on anti immigration wall, has no way of making mexico pay for it, campaigns on Anti Muslim terror but excludes the worst countries from his ban list whilst doing more good for the enemy than his own people, campaigns on Anti Elitism yet he represents the very worst of it, not to mention his cabinet picks being all about big corporation profit. It is BLATANTLY obvious that Trump is not only being unamerican (according to the constitution), but is also in the process of betraying his own voters, these quickfire executive orders are just to cover that up. No amount of "alternative facts" will fool those of us with minds of our own. My queston to readers of this thread is simple, With facts, can you justify Trump's actions ?

They don't want to see it?
They don't want to admit they made a mistake?
They are in denial?

Potentially a lot of reasons why they 'dont want to see it' including "dont care about those getting hurt"

The guy has been in office for 12 days. Not really sufficient to see how his Presidency will unfold. For all those who hate Trump be sure and reply so you can feel good about doing so. For all those who like Trump ignore this post and let those who need it have their fun.

That......really depends on who you ask, I mean look at how Obama was attacked.
I don't hate Trump, I don't live in America, I have absolutely no reason to.

But honestly, purely objective, the first days in a presidency would seem to be the indicators of what is to come last I checked? a response like that, regardless of what it is to, seems to be denial? trying to push away the significance of what he's done?
He was incredibly critical of Obama? shouldn't he then be subject to the same criticism especially when he does what he does? Some seem to call things "fake news" but if he said those things and did those things, then that part is not fake, at best the journalists opinions and thoughts can be biased, but that doesn't make the news part fake? does it?


That said, One of Trump's latest statements is one I approve of, specifically him saying America isn't so innocent. Which snowden and other whistleblowers have been proving for a long time, and now its admitted. That is a good thing, that is something you can work with rather then continual denial, in my book, that said rest of his actions...yeah...but at least he's done one thing right in my book so far. Better then 0.

 

[Adept]

So whats the reason for the resentment? And do you genuinely believe going back to the way things were will make everything right again?

Going backwards will not help. Consumer protection, human rights and worker rights have been improved, by and large decade by decade. The EU, despite your mistrust of it, was on your side. Northern Ireland has been receiving a huge amount of EU funding to get properly on its feet, and the EU was instrumental in bringing relative peace to the island. The Leave vote means throwing all that away, and just trusting in the good will of the Tories.

Two simple questions that no doubt will have a great many answers depending on the individuals answering them. Take a moment and consider this...do you know what its like at the bottom of the food chain? When ye have to work with a budget so tight, that there will be days ye just feel like giving up?

I'm reluctant to write too much about myself here. I'll just say that while I have an academic degree, I'm overworked and underpaid. I'd have more money and more free time if I just trained to scrub floors at the nearby hospital, wait on tables or just work as a cashier at a shop. And the rest... I kind of feel that these days almost all of us are familiar with depression.

 

[Adept]

Now leaving the EU or electing Donald Trump is arguably not likely to achieve that, but maybe that shows how desperate and hopeless a lot of people feel if they are prepared to take such unlikely gambles in an attempt to get a better life.

If the people swallow lies and end up voting for a fix that just makes things worse, whose fault is that? I'd say it's both the fault of those misleading the voters (hello Boris, Daily Mail, etc...), and the voters themselves. Swallowing lies and buying Snake Oil definitely has an element of buyer beware. The voter has a lot of power in a democracy, but they also have a big responsibility.

 

[FuzzySpider]

Well I do remember some months ago that verminstar specifically stated that he himself had been given a pay cut and/or lost his job because of cheap immigrant labour coming in to the country. Even the statistics seem to show that under some economic conditions, mass immigration of labour in low skilled job areas has a small but detectable downward pressure on wages.

That's the economic truism that a surplus of something devalues that something. A surplus of labour will devalue labour, thus reduce wages.

I have a problem with that argument. I don't think that is what's going on here. After all, we've got immigrants in all kinds of jobs and the wages aren't being slashed to ribbons for doctors, dentists, university lecturers, or engineers (those are the places you'll find masses of immigrants).

Let me tell you about my mate Peter. Hes from Slovakia, and has travelled all over the place. It's a kind of hobby (I think he's in Western Ukraine at the minute). He came to the UK many years ago to taste the place and enjoy a bit of cultural soaking up, and to get by took a job as a farmhand. He told me that he had heard that it was mostly Polish workers, but it turned out that all his fellow farmhands were actually Russian (he was disappointed as he speaks fluent Russian and wanted to learn some Polish).

Why Russians? Why no English? Well we have this dreadful benefits system, which takes unemployed people and treats them like the scum of the earth. Far from helping people to find work, it pushes them through a mangle which insures they spend as much of the week as possible doing tedious tasks just to satisfy the sadistic tabloids.

If you're in a flat in Liverpool or Manchester, and are unemployed, you can not simply go to Wiltshire and work for a few weeks during the harvest. The benefits system would grille you into the ground, your housing benefit or other benefits would cease, you'd basically have to pack everything you own onto a truck and move. And for 2 or 3 months work, that just isn't doable.

But it gets worse.

The benefits system, during the last few years, brought in something called the "work program". Basically, if you're unemployed for a certain period of time, the government find you a job working for a company such as Asda, Tesco, etc (there is a list online somewhere). You then have to work for these companies, unpaid, or lose all benefits and government assistance for up to three years.

A benefits system which, by design, seeks to interfere with and restrict the lives of claimants can not offer a flexible labour market. As a result immigrant labour has to take up the slack.

Now leaving the EU or electing Donald Trump is arguably not likely to achieve that, but maybe that shows how desperate and hopeless a lot of people feel if they are prepared to take such unlikely gambles in an attempt to get a better life.

I get that idea. That's why, contrary to what Verminstar says, I endorse the Brexit voters that are honestly saying they expect things to get a whole lot worse and they're doing it to send a signal to the high and mighty. Brexit/Trump isn't so much curing the disease by killing the patient, as much as a bit like curing the disease by killing the patient and then using a catapult to hurl the corpse at the bereaved.

 

[verminstar]

The problem is that none of your problems have been caused by immigration.

Well... except for one immigrant...

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...s-to-downing-street-theresa-may-david-cameron

Hows that "kicking elites" working out for you?

If one was to judge the answer based on the sheer amount of salt you throw around, its working out quite well thanks fer asking ^

And yes, I read all about that...I thought it was quite funny rather than take it seriously, but I can see how that could be used as propaganda by the guardian...the paper by elites for elites the perfect bastion of non biased truth...ye do know they have quite the reputation as the mouthpiece of the establishment? No, of course ye dont...doesnt fit in with your version of the truth.

Who said all my issues were immigration? Somke were...others werent but dont let that get in the way of another loaded rant hmm? Yer nothing if not predictable, but thanks fer proving my point all the same ^

 

[Adept]

but I can see how that could be used as propaganda by the guardian...the paper by elites for elites the perfect bastion of non biased truth...ye do know they have quite the reputation as the mouthpiece of the establishment?

I would confidently bet quite a lot of money on the Guardian being on a whole different level of truthfulness than the Daily Mail. Do you disagree? No news organisation will be perfect, but I can pretty much promise that it will be like night and day if we start tracking down mistakes and outright lies.

 

[verminstar]

Going backwards will not help. Consumer protection, human rights and worker rights have been improved, by and large decade by decade. The EU, despite your mistrust of it, was on your side. Northern Ireland has been receiving a huge amount of EU funding to get properly on its feet, and the EU was instrumental in bringing relative peace to the island. The Leave vote means throwing all that away, and just trusting in the good will of the Tories.



I'm reluctant to write too much about myself here. I'll just say that while I have an academic degree, I'm overworked and underpaid. I'd have more money and more free time if I just trained to scrub floors at the nearby hospital, wait on tables or just work as a cashier at a shop. And the rest... I kind of feel that these days almost all of us are familiar with depression.

The EU were instrumental in bringing about peace? In what way? Thats news to me I have to admit...seems everyone wants to claim some sorta helping hand as to who brought peace to this island. As someone who actually lived through it, yer comment made my eyebrow rise higher than Spocks ever did...genuinely confused. The EU played no role Im aware off unless it was buying off politicians in which case I could believe that.

Going backwards? I would say forwards but obviously, our perspectives are very different. I see the EU as unyielding to compromise...to change. Stuck in the past on old values that are seemingly set in stone...I wanted change as did many others but the EU refused point blank to change. Staying would have been like saying we were happy and didnt want change...if thats not backwards, its setting time and marching on the spot not forwards.

As for careers...a little of a moot point fer me now because I have MS diagnosed just over 2 years ago. The job I did fer 18 years is gone to me on health and safety grounds alone, although I got out while the industry was in severe decline anyway due to...the EU funnily enough. I did explain that some time ago in another thread...it happened when the company I worked for were forced into introducing a number of new regulations that meant we lost two thirds of our customers almost overnight. We went from 32 well trained and well paid guys to 5 when I took ill...doing mostly the menial cleaning jobs of builders cleans the likes of which just about keep things ticking over...not the actual job we spent our own money getting certificates and specialist licences once upon a time for.

And yes I do blame the EU fer that as the new laws we had to adhere to came directly from brussels...although I do understand the reasoning behind them, it didnt make the anger any less at the time...not funny losing yer home in court when my wife was ill I can assure you.

Ancient history...not relevant. Depression? Ye dont know the half of it...difference being that a mix of the home grown establishment, the EU and a lifetime of living in the worst parts of northern ireland has left me bitter and angry and unwilling to remain a part of something I dont believe in. They have done much less fer some of us than you seem to think and some of us have literally gone backwards in life because of them.

 

[FuzzySpider]

The EU were instrumental in bringing about peace? In what way? Thats news to me I have to admit...seems everyone wants to claim some sorta helping hand as to who brought peace to this island. As someone who actually lived through it, yer comment made my eyebrow rise higher than Spocks ever did...genuinely confused. The EU played no role Im aware off unless it was buying off politicians in which case I could believe that.

http://www.thehindu.com/specials/Pe...a-short-history-of-the-EU/article14399228.ece
http://voxeu.org/article/britain-s-eu-membership-new-insight-economic-history
http://www.historiasiglo20.org/europe/anteceden2.htm

They have done much less fer some of us than you seem to think and some of us have literally gone backwards in life because of them.

As much as I hope the signal you have sent reaches the right ears, and as much as I sincerely hope that, somehow, things improve for you personally, I fear that the act of Brexit/Trump will do the precise opposite. The forces that have pushed for this, and that have taken advantage of it so far, are not champions of the poor and downtrodden.

But, if we in Europe are really going to sit and watch as other human beings drown in the Mediterranean, and not help because (let's be honest) they are "not like us", we have gone backwards. Very far backwards. We're into "everyone who died in WW2 died for nothing" territory if we're back to that.

 

[verminstar]

I would confidently bet quite a lot of money on the Guardian being on a whole different level of truthfulness than the Daily Mail. Do you disagree? No news organisation will be perfect, but I can pretty much promise that it will be like night and day if we start tracking down mistakes and outright lies.

I dont read any of them if truth be told...genuine freedom of speech is merely an illusion fed to the masses to keep them sweet. I also dont trust anything the bbc say and am still wishing for an inquiry into biased news reporting relating to the brexit campaign itself...Camerons mouthpiece...man of the people that one ^

- - - Updated - - -

The forces that have pushed for this, and that have taken advantage of it so far, are not champions of the poor and downtrodden.

With the alternative of Cameron and that other little dobeg Osbourne...ah they true champions of the people werent they? Oh wait...werent they trying to threaten us into remaining? Thats two huge mistakes right there...first of all those ye wish us to trust and secondly in project fear ^

And quit with the refugee sob story...I feel just as bad as any right minded person, but immigration and refugees are two entirely different concepts. As bad as I feel about that, it does have to said that the EU went and made a bad situation worse...more specifically merkel but lets not get too specific. Their problem now because they made it theirs and said something without the agreement of everyone else. Water under the bridge and what has been said cannot be unsaid through trying to send me on some sorta guilt trip. The refugess crisis has nothing to do with the issue of immigration...lets keep those two issues apart, shall we? Im am not the fool you think I am, there is a clear distinction between the two issues.

 

[FuzzySpider]

With the alternative of Cameron and that other little dobeg Osbourne...ah they true champions of the people werent they? Oh wait...werent they trying to threaten us into remaining? Thats two huge mistakes right there...first of all those ye wish us to trust and secondly in project fear ^

No they were not champions of the people, hence me pointing out that I understand your vote. I just don't think you're going to get what you wished for, and things will get even worse now.

But Cameron and Osborne, while sociopathic and hardline right-wingers, were at least sane. They at least had some level of moderation and intelligence. What has taken their place (May, Fox, Davis, Johnson) is absolute craziness and chaotic incompetence.

And quit with the refugee sob story...I feel just as bad as any right minded person, but immigration and refugees are two entirely different concepts. As bad as I feel about that, it does have to said that the EU went and made a bad situation worse...more specifically merkel but lets not get too specific. Their problem now because they made it theirs and said something without the agreement of everyone else. Water under the bridge and what has been said cannot be unsaid through trying to send me on some sorta guilt trip.

Merkel didn't make a bad situation worse. In fact she's one of the few who have tried to do the right thing, even though it cost her politically. You know how you go on about "elites" and politicians who will do whatever the think will put them ahead, never doing the right thing by other people if it hurts their own wealth or power? Well Merkel is an example of a politician doing just that.

The refugess crisis has nothing to do with the issue of immigration...lets keep those two issues apart, shall we? Im am not the fool you think I am, there is a clear distinction between the two issues.

The topic of the thread is about why people have chosen to vote for these political movements, not why you in particular have chosen to vote for these movements. The refugee crisis, and the alt-right media coverage of it, is absolutely a part of that. The fact we're now heading into a very dark place as a result is something that a vote for Brexit/Trump has helped to bring about.

 

[verminstar]

Then we disagree on the reasons we heading into a dark place and as I already made my point of view why, I see no reason and have no desire to repeat meself.

The topic if this thread is to ask people went and voted in such a way as this...then I give ye my reasosns why and thats not what thr4ead was asking for? Ok so lets wait to hear from someone else who can speak fer everyone else who voted out, and they can give ye what ye ask for as me trying to make an effort obviously isnt enough. Fair enough...I tried.

 

[Daitya Zo]

For a lot of the Trump voters that don't represent the 20% "base" of GOP support of Trump...their mantra, similar to the democrats, was "Anyone but her"

Yes, we were Hillary supporters by default until we started educating ourselves.
Two votes for Trump from this house. First time I've voted Republican in my life.