Blocksections, what about the lifthill?

richh94

R
There are so many coasters which uses the chain lift as a block break. For example, the crashed The Smiler-train was waiting on the chain lift and was released by the staff before the accident. The Vekoma SLC's can also use 3 trains with just two block breaks and the station. Multiple Mack-coasters, Lost Gravity for example, releases trains before the other train hit the MCBR, so I'm sure they can stop the chain lift when something goes wrong.
Same for launched coasters, by the way (except lanched coasters that already have some speed before entering the launch section).

Planet Coaster needs at least some toggle you can enable/disable to use the lift as a block, in my opinion. I really need this for high-capacity coasters :) Multiple stations (entrance/exit) would be great, too.
 

Abletudu

Abletudu
richh94 said:
The Vekoma SLC's can also use 3 trains with just two block breaks and the station.
Click to expand...

In Planet Coaster the station counts as a block break

Multiple Mack-coasters, Lost Gravity for example, releases trains before the other train hit the MCBR, so I'm sure they can stop the chain lift when something goes wrong.
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Isn't that what the anti-rollback is for to keep a train safe if they stop the chain?
 

Crowdpleaser

Crowdpleaser
Parkmaker said:
In Planet Coaster the station counts as a block break



Isn't that what the anti-rollback is for to keep a train safe if they stop the chain?
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In terms of Number of Trains, the Station doesn't count as a Block. If you count one Train per Block then you need three Block Brakes for three Trains. The fact that you can't have three Trains with two Blocks on the Track proves that the Station doesn't count as a Block.

Which annoys me.
 

Abletudu

Abletudu
Crowdpleaser said:
In terms of Number of Trains, the Station doesn't count as a Block. If you count one Train per Block then you need three Block Brakes for three Trains. The fact that you can't have three Trains with two Blocks on the Track proves that the Station doesn't count as a Block.

Which annoys me.
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It has to count as a block brake because if you have a train in the block brake behind the station it will not move until the train in the station clears it. If it didn't count as a block brake that one behind the station would stop there and continue into the station after the train leaving the station clears the first block brake, but this is not the case since as soon as the train clears the station the one behind can move forward.

I hope the way I worded it is clear enough.
 
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Crowdpleaser

Crowdpleaser
Parkmaker said:
It has to count as a block brake because if you have a train in the block brake behind the station it will not move until the train in the station clears it. If it didn't count as a block brake that one behind the station would stop there and continue into the station after the train leaving the station clears the first block brake, but this is not the case since as soon as the train clears the station the one behind can move forward.
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Sure, that is what a Station is supposed to do. BUT: If that is the Case, then why can't i add one Train more? Yes the Station registers when a Trains occupies it, but that's it. It doesn't add to the Train Number, which is a bit silly.
 

Crowdpleaser

Crowdpleaser
Parkmaker said:
It does register as a block brake, but remember you always have to have at least one empty block for the trains to move, that's why for two trains you have to have three block brakes.

If you look at my Wings of Isis coaster in the workshop, I have 3 trains with 3 block brakes (not counting the station). http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=771079185
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Sure, i know about that :D. But the Thing is, it doesn't make any sense. Why should i have a Blockbrake that is empty? If i had three Trains with one Station and two Blocks, none of the Trains could accidently run into each other. It would look liek this: At the first start of the Coaster it would look like this: One Train sits in the Station ready to load. The other two on the two Blocks. I don't see why you would need one extra (empty) Block Brake? You say the Train can only move when there is one empty Block? This is just not true. At least not in real life. As soon as the Train leaves the station the other two can go as well. This is how it is done in real life.
 
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Abletudu

Abletudu
Crowdpleaser said:
Sure, i know about that :D. But the Thing is, it doesn't make any sense. Why should i have a Blockbrake that is empty? If i had three Trains with one Station and two Blocks, none of the Trains could accidently run into each other. It would look liek this: At the first start of the Coaster it would look like this: One Train sits in the Station ready to load. The other two on the two Blocks. I don't see why you would need one extra (empty) Block Brake? You say the Train can only move when there is one empty Block? This is just not true. At least not in real life. As soon as the Train leaves the station the other two can go as well. This is how it is done in real life.
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Because the one in the station would not leave until the train occupying the block brake (#1) in front of it clears that block brake which can not happen until the train in front of that clears its block brake (2) which can not move until the train in the station clears the station. This is why you need one extra block brake.

To try to explain this better I made a simple diagram to show what I am describing above.


Simple%20blocks_zpserbhv3bz.jpg
 
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Crowdpleaser

Crowdpleaser
Parkmaker said:
Because the one in the station would not leave until the train occupying the block brake (#1) in front of it clears that block brake which can not happen until the train in front of that clears its block brake (2) which can not move until the train in the station clears the station. This is why you need one extra block brake.

To try to explain this better I made a simple diagram to show what I am describing above.


Click to expand...

Thanks for the Effort and i got your Point earlier. The thing is that there are Coasters with less Block Brakes running more Trains. But i might be wrong :D Which i have been before.
 

gregorburns

G
Crowdpleaser said:
Thanks for the Effort and i got your Point earlier. The thing is that there are Coasters with less Block Brakes running more Trains. But i might be wrong :D Which i have been before.
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It's impossible I'm afraid [knockout]

As in Parkmaker's examples, there is always a spare section between blocks so the trains are able to move. It's the same reason there's always a gap on these strange (and not very enjoyable tbh) puzzles:
Logo.png
 

Bitter Jeweler

Bitter Jeweler
Yes. That puzzle is a great example.

A block section starts AFTER a brake, and ends at the end of the brake.
While a train is on, or in, a block brake, that entire block is occupied.
A train cannot enter that block until it is clear. A train stopped on that brake is occupying that block.

So, a Station, and one block brake in game, can't have two trains because neither can clear the block section.
You could argue that both could move at the same time. But that's not how it works. The trains can't move until the "sensors" are clear. You can't suggest that it would be safe for one to move, to free up the other, because if the other train failed to go,there would be a crash.

Having the lift act as a block section sensor would allow it to be that "free space".

I HAVE been researching this, and if anyone wants to suggest otherwise, they need to provide me with more information to further my education. Lift hills ARE used as block sections. They are a safety "device", but coasters are not engineered to have trains stopped there REGULARY as a function of normal operation. If any do, they are the rarity. I have been watching tons of coaster POV videos, and I have yet to see one where the train stops on the lift hill. If anyone has evidence of this, POST IT. Show me. Show me how common this is. I am willing to learn.

Given how many people have trouble using block sections for multiple trains, and use them ineffectively, I think making lift hills block sections in game will just increase the confusion.

I've dowloaded quite a few coasters from the workshop, and even my own, that are so well timed, that I can't keep queues full. I have had zero need for "fast pass" queues. And they often muck things up anyway. That's what block section are about. Maximum efficiency to get the most riders through that coaster as possible.

If you need to have "have train leave station if another arrives" as an option...You probably don't need multiple trains.
You should certainly lose money operating multiple trains at half capacity. You are putting wear and tear on multiple trains, and not getting full price for each ride. You should actually run at a deficit.
 

Crowdpleaser

Crowdpleaser
Parkmaker said:
Where?
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Euro Sat for Example has two Blockbrakes but runs three Trains. But like i said i might remember it wrong.

(Edit: The others i thought have less do indeed have three Block Brakes. Who knew.)

I think i know what confused me in thinking this: The Spacing. Yes they might have three Blocks apart from the Station but they are able to send Trains sooner. Most of the Blocks in this case are either after and before the station or just before the station.

It is hard to explain without seeing it. I will make a Video of this when i'm next in Europa Park, then i can show you :D
 
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Abletudu

Abletudu
I am sure that they have one more block section (empty) than the number of trains. If there are sensors on the lift hill, I believe it is just to let the operator know where the train is if the lift hill is out of his vision range.
 

TheOneRealPotato

T
Bitter Jeweler said:
This idea that stopping on the lift hill is normal and happens frequently is absurd.

And...


...this couldn't be farther from the truth.
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Bitter Jeweler said:
Lift hills ARE used as block sections. They are a safety "device", but coasters are not engineered to have trains stopped there REGULARY as a function of normal operation. If any do, they are the rarity. I have been watching tons of coaster POV videos, and I have yet to see one where the train stops on the lift hill. If anyone has evidence of this, POST IT. Show me. Show me how common this is. I am willing to learn.
Click to expand...

Right, although the lift hill in the below example is not being used as a block brake, it does stop for a split second when a monorail passes over it, which, as rare and strange as it seems, is totally normal. Take a look.

[video=youtube;DLRbeRVzoCI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLRbeRVzoCI&t=40s[/video]
 

richh94

R
The point is: the lift CAN be stopped. That is why it can function as a blocksection. But: a well designed coaster shouldn't stop on the lift hill, and most coasters are well designed :)

There are so many coasters out there with only the station, one block section before the station and 2 trains. For two trains, you need 3 block breaks, because to release a train, the next block should be free. In those cases, the station and the lift hill are block breaks.

I think the best system would be:
- Station as a block section
- Lift as a block section
- For x trains, you need x+1 block sections

That's actually how all the current coaster games, including simulators like No Limits, are working right now.

I have no idea why Planet Coaster should work different.
 
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Abletudu

Abletudu
That's actually how all the current coaster games, including simulators like No Limits, are working right now.
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Because unlike No Limits, Planet Coaster is a complete theme park game not just a coaster simulator and Frontier has to consider all things not just the coasters.
 
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richh94

R
Parkmaker said:
Because unlike No Limits, Planet Coaster is a complete theme park game not just a coaster simulator and Frontier has to consider all things not just the coasters.
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Not only No Limits. RCT1, RCT2 and RCT3 are doing exactly the same, because coasters work that way. Why should Planet Coaster be different?
This 'consideration' isn't a hard thing to implement.

Especially because Planet Coaster is a theme park game, they need to make it possible to make high capacity coasters. This is essential.
 

Abletudu

Abletudu
richh94 said:
Not only No Limits. RCT1, RCT2 and RCT3 are doing exactly the same, because coasters work that way. Why should Planet Coaster be different?
This 'consideration' isn't a hard thing to implement.

Especially because Planet Coaster is a theme park game, they need to make it possible to make high capacity coasters. This is essential.
Click to expand...

I don't remember having more than 1 train on any of the coasters in any of the Roller Coaster Tycoon games.
 
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