General / Off-Topic Books: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

In an attempt to debunk my claims that you are more analytical than the majority, you have analysed my forum post.

Interesting. ;)

Agreed, though, with further investigation and conversation there would no doubt be similarities. My comments were based solely on the samples available on the forum (and some of the conversations we've had, admittedly).

:)
 
By which you mean the series "The Song of Ice and Fire" then? ;) Lack of focus? ;)

Heh, I always forget that... I got interested after hearing about the TV series, but went straight for the books rather than the TV. Perhaps I would have enjoyed the TV series more, especially if it trims things down.

I felt it went a bit like this - GOT (A) Clash of Kings (damn filter) (A-) SOS (A) FFC (B-) DWD (B+)*

I'd be more B-, C-, F, Z... ;) I'm horrendously critical though. It really takes a lot for me to properly like something. Though I enjoyed GOT I certainly don't consider it A material. I was so grateful when I gave up on the series and went back to the Dune series (now there is some good writing).

I'm tempted to stop reading GoT now after those comments and just enjoy the TV series.

Don't take my comments too seriously! I really am horrendously critical. Mind you, you might be the same :p
 
In an attempt to debunk my claims that you are more analytical than the majority, you have analysed my forum post.

Interesting. ;)

Never believe the hype. The minute a lecturer or teacher loses the fear people will discover they don't know what they are talking about, loses their calling to the vocation along with it.

This is the fundamental hypocrisy of education...;)
 
Never believe the hype. The minute a lecturer or teacher loses the fear people will discover they don't know what they are talking about, loses their calling to the vocation along with it.

This is the fundamental hypocrisy of education...;)
Hold it right there!

My job is to teach teachers (and I have a PhD in Education Science - adult professional education, that is) and one of the main lessons we try to teach them is that no teacher can know everything. Teachers need to be humble enough to recognise this and be willing to learn from their students. Thus, collaborative learning where the teacher joins the students in discussing and solving problems, or analysing the data that the students have gathered is the only way that a teacher can truly teach. Teachers are experts of learning methods and the ways people learn and can therefore guide the group on their way to knowledge, but they cannot provide all that knowledge by themselves.

In short, teachers are not fountains of content knowledge. They are fountains of knowledge on _learning_ and supporting learning - or at least they should be.

Of course, there are many, many teachers who still think that they should know everything and feel threatened when students ask questions that could reveal that they actually don't. And, naturally, there are students who expect teachers to be mere fountains of knowledge and fail to realise that this could never be possible.
 
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Hold it right there!
My job is to teach teachers (and I have a PhD in Education Science - adult professional education, that is) and one of the main lessons we try to teach them is that no teacher can know everything.

Death Sticks you say? I must go home and re-think my life! ;)

Apologies for the tangent, but you've nailed me to the wall on something I said and something I didn't say. Let's pick apart your kill shot here and try and resuscitate the point...;)

Firstly, I never said "teachers can no everything" nor do I assume they do. There is a positive/negative opposite from what I said, to what you've pinned me on.

I said "don't know what they are talking about" not "know everything". This is fear, not overconfidence, pure fear.

Somewhere deep within my psyche is a bit of me that drives to lectures every morning terrified someone will find out I'm a fraud, that all my years of remembering stuff and re-applying it will be revealed for being just the same as anyone else using the same trick with different life experience. That someone will walk into my classroom sit nice and quiet and when I get to a point. Indicate I'm wrong and demonstrate exactly how.

I used to be that student too, so I know the role...;) Not because I wanted to catch someone out, but because I take a genuine pleasure in knowing stuff. You might have listened to my writing interview with Drew where I mentioned it took a while to realise, knowing doesn't mean you should share.

The fear doesn't project the "know-it-all" you've defined. The fear projects the worthless; the idea of turning up and being unable to contribute anything to the subject and the lesson. To be overtaken and left behind. This isn't about lead or contribute, its about permanently being dragged under the wheels or pulled behind on a rope. Its a particularly sharp lesson when you work in an area that is defined by technology enabling results.

Teachers need to be humble enough to recognise this and be willing to learn from their students. Thus, collaborative learning where the teacher joins the students in discussing and solving problems, or analysing the data that the students have gathered is the only way that a teacher can truly teach. Teachers are experts of learning methods and the ways people learn and can therefore guide the group on their way to knowledge, but they cannot provide all that knowledge by themselves.

Indeed, the student centered pedagogy soap box. I'm being a little facetious, but the honest point here is I agree with you and didn't claim otherwise. I see myself as a facilitator and take that very seriously. I take it you've read Paulo Freire on this?

Humble is absolutely the word and your use here implies your perception of what I said is the opposite. I've re-read my point and I can't quite see where you'd get that impression? But, then with your background I would expect the dicta-teacher is an archetype you're familiar with, it is certainly one I am familiar with...;)

In short, teachers are not fountains of content knowledge. They are fountains of knowledge on _learning_ and supporting learning - or at least they should be.

Again, thanks for the ponti-rant. I hope you can see from the above how I'm actually agreeing with you.

Let's re-focus slightly. Dave made a personal observation about me, I've replied where I think he misrepresented things. I then added a little tongue in cheek, which was labelled as such. With respect, you've now skewered me on a stick I can't see I deserved or appreciate. The only flesh on the barbecue is mine.

To summarise, the hypocrisy I'm talking about is that the people entrusted and employed to teach are motivated by fear that they will be the people left behind and use that fear to ensure they won't be. That doesn't mean they then project that into being the source of all knowledge to their students. The two things don't necessarily connect.

If you'd like a discussion on the merits and flaws of difficult educational attitudes and practices, I'm sure we'd have a fine time going through them, but that might be a bit misplaced on Darren's thread, so perhaps to PM, eh?
 
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Humble is absolutely the word and your use here implies your perception of what I said is the opposite. I've re-read my point and I can't quite see where you'd get that impression? But, then with your background I would expect the dicta-teacher is an archetype you're familiar with, it is certainly one I am familiar with...;)
Sorry, I did not mean to direct my words at you, per se. It was just that one statement that ignited my lust to teach teachers - I hope you forgive me since my intention was not to teach _you_ but talk about the point in general. :)

But, yes, I _think_ I'm beginning to understand what you may mean with the "fear" that you refer to. The fear that you are not actually needed as a teacher and you have nothing more to offer to the students?

On the other hand, when you say that "that all my years of remembering stuff and re-applying it will be revealed for being just the same as anyone else using the same trick with different life experience" I kind of get the feeling that you think that you need to be special in some way to be worth something (as a teacher)? Perhaps the lesson of humility in this case (and forgive me if I misunderstood you) is to realise that we are all just people and we all can make mistakes and that there will _always_ be someone who knows more about stuff than we do, or who have a new kind of a viewpoint to a problem that we never even thought of? When that student eventually comes who points out that we are wrong, we should not be afraid of them. Rather, we should praise their thinking, admit that we had never thought of that, and ask them to explain and teach it to us and the rest of the classroom - and perhaps pull them aside later and beat them... uh... tell them that it might be a good idea for them to continue their studies or seek some advanced courses in the area.
 
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I've got a picture in my mind's eye of the lecturers in this thread at Waterstones saying they're returning a book, and showing all the red ink in the book where they've underlined mistakes and highlighted plot holes.

:D
 
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On the other hand, when you say that "that all my years of remembering stuff and re-applying it will be revealed for being just the same as anyone else using the same trick with different life experience" I kind of get the feeling that you think that you need to be special in some way to be worth something (as a teacher)? Perhaps the lesson of humility in this case (and forgive me if I misunderstood you) is to realise that we are all just people and we all can make mistakes and that there will _always_ be someone who knows more about stuff than we do, or who have a new kind of a viewpoint to a problem that we never even thought of? When that student eventually comes who points out that we are wrong, we should not be afraid of them. Rather, we should praise their thinking, admit that we had never thought of that, and ask them to explain and teach it to us and the rest of the classroom - and perhaps pull them aside later and beat them... uh... tell them that it might be a good idea for them to continue their studies or seek some advanced courses in the area.


Can WE NOW please look at some **** and bring this back to the right level...
 
Uh, yes, quite... :eek:

Did I mention Guy Gavriel Kay - Am I really the only one here who has read his fantasy? I know he is said to be a hidden gem, but I did not realise he might be quite this hidden...

But, moving away from sci-fi and fantasy, my heart really belongs to historical fiction and Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin novels specifically. In some senses, you can draw connections with his descriptions of life at sea, in a confined ship with only other sailors as company, and what space travel might really be like in fiction like Elite. You live on a moving island, unconnected from everyone and everything...
 
Anyone like David Gemmell? Julian May? Raymond E Feist? Weiss & Hickman?
I only read a bit of Weiss & Hickman when I was a teenager, but not too many. I never really got to like their high fantasy style.

Raymond E Feist's Magician was actually the first ever novel that I read in English and it holds a special place in my memories for that reason. He wrote some decent high fantasy up until his divorce, but after that his quality dropped so much that I stopped following him.
 
Anyone like David Gemmell? Julian May? Raymond E Feist? Weiss & Hickman?

Like Gemmell, he is better on certain ground though. Very good at being economical and gritty, less good with magic and mythology. Characters can repeat through his books. Druss, Waylander and Parmenion are very well drawn as is Serbitar. he probably wrote too many Waylander books, should have stuck to two. Same with Druss.

Like Raymond Feist, but some books are a bit dialled in. Plus, I have a friend who thinks he's the most amazing writer ever, which doesn't help...;) However, he's happy to kill off characters and Daughter of the Empire is an excellent book with Janny Wurtz. Prefer that to most of the Midkemia stuff. Jimmy the Hand is well worked, Pug and Tomas, less so, although Magician is a good book.

I have a lot of Weis and Hickman stuff. There's a little bit of a teenage quality to the characters when you re-read them, but I loved the stories. The main Dragonlance trilogies are the best, although the Rose and the Prophet series is underrated. The Death gate Cycle has some fascinating appendicies. The Annotated Chronicles is a great thing to own with the author commentary.

Not read Julian May. I probably should.
 
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