Bot attack in eranin?

[IndigoWyrd]

devastating to the BGS community, as it has already wrecked the PowerPlay community.

Since you don't care for either, and keep telling us that BGS play is meaningless, it is not something you will ever grasp.

This is such a hard subject to really get a straight answer to for some reason. I’m pretty sure it’s doesn’t have to be, but it is. I’m sure a large part of it is due to me not having any particular ties to any faction, system or power - to me they’re all the same because what I see is them all doing the exact same things. Systems house stations. Stations house factions, factions give missions. Missions give credits. Federal, Imperial, Alliance credits are all the same, with the same 1:1 exchange rate.
Just trying to see what someone else sees. I might have been wrong my entire life and trying to understand someone else’s position isn’t important after all.

 

[Bigmaec]

I don't get it into my head why people would do that. Keep a computer running for 24h "just" to manipulate the BGS?
I could understand rank- or money grinding, but the BGS? Why?
It honestly doesn't matter if Malthus Terminal has the ruling faction "Operation IDA" or "Nomads of Timbuktu" or "Maximus Saltus" or whomever from a gameplay perspective.
There are no personal gains in the BGS. That's what I don't get.

Don't understand me wrong, I can totally understand that people hate fighting against cheaters, but the reason for all this I will propably never get :S

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Isn't it weirdly perverse that to get the evidence of botting Frontier want, you have to run your own bot?

I've been hoping for separate reasons that the traffic/crimes/bounties reports would be available through the journal at some point. For me it's just a curiosity thing and a "wouldn't it be nice if" request - but if Frontier are expecting collection and analysis of this data to be a requirement for reporting bot attacks, they really need to provide a more practical way to collect it in bulk.

I get that Frontier support probably don't have time to investigate every "is this a bot? what about this one?" report - especially since a lot would be from people who don't understand the BGS and are just seeing e.g. the effect of a War state on their systems. So it makes sense for them to require players to make a reasonable case that a detailed internal investigation is justified before starting on it ... but then they must provide the tools needed to make that case in a practical fashion.

 

[Bashy81]

This is such a hard subject to really get a straight answer to for some reason. I’m pretty sure it’s doesn’t have to be, but it is. I’m sure a large part of it is due to me not having any particular ties to any faction, system or power - to me they’re all the same because what I see is them all doing the exact same things. Systems house stations. Stations house factions, factions give missions. Missions give credits. Federal, Imperial, Alliance credits are all the same, with the same 1:1 exchange rate.
Just trying to see what someone else sees. I might have been wrong my entire life and trying to understand someone else’s position isn’t important after all.

I don't get it into my head why people would do that. Keep a computer running for 24h "just" to manipulate the BGS?
I could understand rank- or money grinding, but the BGS? Why?
It honestly doesn't matter if Malthus Terminal has the ruling faction "Operation IDA" or "Nomads of Timbuktu" or "Maximus Saltus" or whomever from a gameplay perspective.
There are no personal gains in the BGS. That's what I don't get.

Don't understand me wrong, I can totally understand that people hate fighting against cheaters, but the reason for all this I will propably never get :S

Ok ill have a go at an explanation. First of all, try to forget the labels. They are nice, but not essential. A PMF by any other name would smell as sweet. Same with joining a faction or not. If youve nurtured a faction into good health, it doesnt really matter if youre 'officially' pledged or not. Its a bit like rescuing a fallen baby bird. It might be a mercy to leave it alone. But, if you nuture it back to life & watch it fledge, do you feel the need to put a branding iron to it with your logo? Or do you stamp on it at the very beginning because you have no personal stake in it's survival?
Im joking, im not accusing you both of having Reactive Attachment Disorder, or a sociopathy. It would be ridiculous to attempt a diagnosis based on an expressed inability to understand how people can attach emotionally to groups or things they derive no personal benefit from.
And thats not actually sarcastic. It might seem an obvious connection to draw, but thats the amateur psychology nonsense that is usually completely wrong.

 

[Theodrid]

Isn't it weirdly perverse that to get the evidence of botting Frontier want, you have to run your own bot?

'The only way to stop a bad guy with a bot is to have a good guy with a bot'.

ahem.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Ok ill have a go at an explanation. First of all, try to forget the labels. They are nice, but not essential. A PMF by any other name would smell as sweet. Same with joining a faction or not. If youve nurtured a faction into good health, it doesnt really matter if youre 'officially' pledged or not. Its a bit like rescuing a fallen baby bird. It might be a mercy to leave it alone. But, if you nuture it back to life & watch it fledge, do you feel the need to put a branding iron to it with your logo? Or do you stamp on it at the very beginning because you have no personal stake in it's survival?
Im joking, im not accusing you both of having Reactive Attachment Disorder, or a sociopathy. It would be ridiculous to attempt a diagnosis based on an expressed inability to understand how people can attach emotionally to groups or things they derive no personal benefit from.
And thats not actually sarcastic. It might seem an obvious connection to draw, but thats the amateur psychology nonsense that is usually completely wrong.

I get that - people do get attached to things, be they little birds found in yards or NPC groups they named. I still don’t get the motivation to “adopt” any given faction, especially one that you didn’t name, though I suppose this is more a play-style matter than anything else, so I can at least relate to that. It’s a Purple/Green thing, and that’s fine. I’m a Silver myself, so Purple and Green can carry on as they see fit.

Still not sure about communal devestation though - sounds like a gross hyperbole. I’m part of said same community, just with a very different agenda.

Labels though... never going away. Human nature demands them, and I do too. But I do appricate your time and explanation. It helps.

 

[Bashy81]

I get that - people do get attached to things, be they little birds found in yards or NPC groups they named. I still don’t get the motivation to “adopt” any given faction, especially one that you didn’t name, though I suppose this is more a play-style matter than anything else, so I can at least relate to that. It’s a Purple/Green thing, and that’s fine. I’m a Silver myself, so Purple and Green can carry on as they see fit.

Still not sure about communal devestation though - sounds like a gross hyperbole. I’m part of said same community, just with a very different agenda.

Labels though... never going away. Human nature demands them, and I do too. But I do appricate your time and explanation. It helps.

Gladly it pretty much is a purple/green thing, though usually a bit less arbritrary than that. Still, appreciate the B5 reference, & always had a soft-spot for the drazi, hilariously dumb and beautifully overacted

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

Still waiting for an answer as to how this would be “devestating to the community”.
It’s not like a change in management would suddenly render a system inaccessible, or cause ships of any super power to spontaneously explode, or otherwise cut off some venue of game play.

I get that some people have funny emotional attachments to their Player Named Factions they can’t actually join, and don’t actually belong to, but this isn’t really game play. It’s just mental (not in a seek help way).

I also get that there are rules, one of which is “Don’t do this”, but none of us are official, payrolled Rules Enforcers either.

So the actual effect on the community would not be devestating in any way. Some egos might get bruised, but that’s not game play either.

Do you seriously need it explained to you how blatant cheating ruins a game?

 

[Goose4291]

I don't get it into my head why people would do that. Keep a computer running for 24h "just" to manipulate the BGS?
I could understand rank- or money grinding, but the BGS? Why?
It honestly doesn't matter if Malthus Terminal has the ruling faction "Operation IDA" or "Nomads of Timbuktu" or "Maximus Saltus" or whomever from a gameplay perspective.
There are no personal gains in the BGS. That's what I don't get.

Don't understand me wrong, I can totally understand that people hate fighting against cheaters, but the reason for all this I will propably never get :S

A big motive is Powerplay, as changing the government type can hurt your opponent (if it's a system you don't own) or benefit your (if it's one of yours) faction, which is why the first few bots that were caught with their hands in the cookie jar were related to Powerplay activities, incidentally again being used against the Alliance Powerplay faction.

'The only way to stop a bad guy with a bot is to have a good guy with a bot'.

ahem.

Exactly, which neatly segues into what DNA-Decay was saying about how BGS Gameplay and Powerplay will just degenerate into Bot-on-Bot action if left unchecked.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Just caught up on the thread. Really just one question right now. How long do we wait for Frontier to do something about this?

 

[Chaparral]

My hypothesis is that FDEV wanted Open PP to get players to police bots. That got tanked.

Don't think they are that worried about it.

 

[Rrah]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/405016216772804609/493445337617268736/20180923_153331_000.jpg

10011101011110101000
11010101011101101010
01101010001010010101
11101010001010101110

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

… Bot-on-Bot action …

I think Lando would love to see that… [weird]

 

[Lucius Thorne]

To forestall some of the accusations and suspicion that might arise due to the ongoing conflict, on behalf of Lave Radio Network I make the following statement.

LRN is not using bots. To the best of my knowledge, none of our allies is using bots. Any bots that might be being used are not being used with the knowledge of, or the blessing of, LRN.
The leadership of the coalition supporting LRN in Lave is opposed to the use of botting techniques to affect the BGS, directly or indirectly. If whoever is responsible for this is doing it on our behalf, we neither want nor need assistance of that type, and if you are identified as doing so, we will be right there with everybody else in requesting that FDev remove your access to the game.

- Lucius Thorne

 

[DNA-Decay]

Isn't it weirdly perverse that to get the evidence of botting Frontier want, you have to run your own bot?

The irony is not lost on me.

I’m finding that I’m going to need a third account.
One to play the game.
One to monitor where the bots are today.
One more to monitor where the cutter bot fleet gets redeployed.
In the 24 hours after the bots leave a system, high frequency sample data is hugely important.
You can see patterns in the data that give an indication of for example fleet size, and cargo load out.
But equally, catching the ramp up in the 24 hours when they arrive somewhere is necessary.

I don't get it into my head why people would do that. Keep a computer running for 24h "just" to manipulate the BGS?
I could understand rank- or money grinding, but the BGS? Why?

You need to look at the data closely and think critically.

In the last ramp down with the half hour sample frequency you see “steps” where there is no change. And then there is a step down of 3 cutters.
It’s generally the same in the other systems.

So let say that means that a round trip takes 40 minutes, and the bots are all started within 5 minutes of each other. I read that data as indicating a FLEET of 3 Cutters in each system. And there are multiple systems under simultaneous attack.

You want rank grinding? You want wealth?
How about several accounts at King with enough raw cash to fit them out nicely.

The botter didn’t grind that lot by hand.


The BGS is what you do with big ships, rank and wealth.
Those things are just tools.
Maybe you need to get out of the kiddy pool and start playing the real game.

That’s the real reason IndigoWyrd doesn’t think the BGS is important. Because if he planted his flag and said “This System is mine” he would get totally creamed and find he can’t play the game and barely knows the rules.

But actually he’s right.
Botting won’t be “devastating to the community”.
Not if you don’t mind a lot of people leaving the game. (and yeah I have seen several “I can’t do this anymore” goodbyes from Alliance comrades so the botter can take comfort that the strategy is working)

But for me it will be the new way we play.

In order to play Elite, you will need to buy several accounts.
And you will need to buy scripting software.

So Frontier and other companies have already directly financially benefitted from this botter.
And there will be plenty more where that came from.

Because while the people who like to fly spaceships leave the game in despair, there will be those who enjoy the intellectual challenge and skill building of running an automated fleet.

Is it too early to call for a “Scripting” sub-forum here?
I’d really like a recommendation on OCR software and some help passing variables to a script.

Anyway. I’d better get out of bed and check whether my screen capture bot survived the night.
Plus the dogs want a walk.

 

[Stigbob]

Just caught up on the thread. Really just one question right now. How long do we wait for Frontier to do something about this?

They've been banning them already.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Isn't it weirdly perverse that to get the evidence of botting Frontier want, you have to run your own bot?

It's a dark comedy script...

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Do you seriously need it explained to you how blatant cheating ruins a game?

If you can bot exploration and mining, we would have a boxed set to binge watch....

And, Frontier would have to explain why we can't have NPC henchmen.

 

[Morbad]

This is such a hard subject to really get a straight answer to for some reason. I’m pretty sure it’s doesn’t have to be, but it is.

People have been giving you straight answers for years. All those things you fuss over, that you consider the game? Irrelevant to many. Those things you dismiss as irrelevant? The bulk of the game to some.

There is one record of the shared narrative of Elite: Dangerous, and that's the BGS history. It's more abstract than credits, or a G5 mod, but no less real, and certainly no less meaningful to many.

Just trying to see what someone else sees.

Doesn't seem like you've been trying very hard.

I don't get it into my head why people would do that. Keep a computer running for 24h "just" to manipulate the BGS?
I could understand rank- or money grinding, but the BGS? Why?
It honestly doesn't matter if Malthus Terminal has the ruling faction "Operation IDA" or "Nomads of Timbuktu" or "Maximus Saltus" or whomever from a gameplay perspective.
There are no personal gains in the BGS. That's what I don't get.

There are no numerical gains on your CMDR's stat sheet to the BGS, but the BGS is the only way any of our changes to the game matter. Without it, it would be a single player game with only our CMDR's personal assets as testament to our contribution. It puts everything else in context.

I spent more time over the last month fighting a doomed fight for a (non-PMF) that my CMDR identified with rather than grinding out guardian equipment or engineering materials...because the former was more important to my CMDR. The personal gains for my CMDR and me as a player, seeing the Brotherhood of LP 198-32 retake Freeport, for example, would be greater than a trillion credits, automatic/material free access to any Engineering mod I desired, all Guardian equipment, and all PP faction modules, combined. Indeed, it would be second only to my personal experience.

Anyway, just as some people are willing to cheat out of the loss of credit assets or to overcome/defy their foes in combat, others are willing to do so to influence BGS competition.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

They've been banning them already.

Genuinely curious: how do you know that?