break of continuity

[Ydiss]

Lol. Your C is the same as B, but whatever - it's all theroycrafting

In that case I'd agree to disagree that people would complain about "needing two attempts because it's boring because the 2nd try the npc had unrealistic lower armour that matched what I did to it the 1st time wth" even nearly as much as those who complain that "I need two attempts but the npc cheats".

I'd also like npcs to have ammo.

Wanting things to be better is acceptable.

 

[Vandaahl]

Which is mad and bizzarre that they CAN keep things persistent, but in some cases, it doesn't...

The ship leaves the instance, so technically, its gone. Feels a bit cobbled together, but through that scan you basically transfer the state from one instance the other.

 

[Vasious]

Which is mad and bizzarre that they CAN keep things persistent, but in some cases, it doesn't...

Yes

It is almost like
Mission calls on the scenario
The NPC is created for the scenario
The Scenario begins with the NPC in SC
The NPC Interdicts you or you interdict it
The NPC flees after some fighting
Since you dont follow the wake then the scenario is reset as soon as you leave the instance back into SC
The Scenario begins again with the NPC in SC

vs

Mission calls on the scenario
The NPC is created for the scenario
The Scenario begins with the NPC in SC
The NPC Interdicts you or you interdict it
The NPC flees after some fighting
You follow the NPCs wake
The scenario continues with the damage on the NPC being saved

Feels like there is a missing flag somewhere

Or as it is a Mission related NPC the system resets it so you can find it again rather than failing the mission by allowing them to flee

It is the same with the Wrinkle NPCs
If they flee and you dont follow them they come back 100% health, but if you follow them they keep the damage.

Also like the weird if they interdict you and you submit and flee, they will always come back after you as if that is resetting the wrinkle scenario, but win the interdiction and that must flag the scenario as complete as they dont bother you again.

This would probably be easier with a flow chart but feels like there is a "correct" way to complete a Mission Scenario and if you dont follow do it that way the mission scenario is reset rather than saved for the next step.

 

[Vasious]

In that case I'd agree to disagree that people would complain about "needing two attempts because it's boring because the 2nd try the npc had unrealistic lower armour that matched what I did to it the 1st time wth" even nearly as much as those who complain that "I need two attempts but the npc cheats".

I'd also like npcs to have ammo.

Wanting things to be better is acceptable.

Multi cannons is the only thing the NPCS "cheat" on in Ammo I believe.

 

[Drelthar]

The ship leaves the instance, so technically, its gone. Feels a bit cobbled together, but through that scan you basically transfer the state from one instance the other.

Yes, so, just use that code when it's a mission target?
Use that code for any ships you've shot at "recently" ?

 

[Rubbernuke]

Maybe Pirate Lord POIs should spawn a second related POI where a repair ship for the Pirate Lord is- if the ship makes it there and comes back its 100%, if you destroy that first the Lord can't regenerate (or that PL ships also have things like AMFUs for modules).

 

[Vandaahl]

Multi cannons is the only thing the NPCS "cheat" on in Ammo I believe.

Thought it was all ammo weapons.

 

[Factabulous]

In that case I'd agree to disagree that people would complain about "needing two attempts because it's boring because the 2nd try the npc had unrealistic lower armour that matched what I did to it the 1st time wth" even nearly as much as those who complain that "I need two attempts but the npc cheats".

Yes, I can see that point of view, and it is tempting. I just think for game reasons it's ok as it is.

As it is: You fail to deal enough DPS, the NPC repeatedly heals. You learn how to get DPS - now you can kill them
If they are persistent: You fail to deal enough DPS, NPC escapes, you find them and finish them off. You don't bother learning how to build you ship - and just think they game is annoying for making you 'grind' a kill.

ofc this only applies to new CMDRs - once you can build a ship you just kill the NPC (which is why these threads are always from new players).

So while I'm not convinced fdev chose deliberately to heal NPCs I don't think it's an issue - though I understand that many others do - but mostly only until they get used to building ships

 

[Ydiss]

Multi cannons is the only thing the NPCS "cheat" on in Ammo I believe.

It's been years but I recall players testing chaff and scbs and confirming they go on indefinitely but I may be wrong.

I've never seen an npc stop using chaff partway through its existence and you can watch them popping it repeatedly if it engages other npcs.

 

[Ydiss]

Yes, I can see that point of view, and it is tempting. I just think for game reasons it's ok as it is.

As it is: You fail to deal enough DPS, the NPC repeatedly heals. You learn how to get DPS - now you can kill them
If they are persistent: You fail to deal enough DPS, NPC escapes, you find them and finish them off. You don't bother learning how to build you ship - and just think they game is annoying for making you 'grind' a kill.

ofc this only applies to new CMDRs - once you can build a ship you just kill the NPC (which is why these threads are always from new players).

So while I'm not convinced fdev chose deliberately to heal NPCs I don't think it's an issue - though I understand that many others do - but mostly only until they get used to building ships

Whilst I'd much prefer it the way I said, I'm a realist and accept that if fdev wanted to do it that way then they probably would have already. I also accept that some players wouldn't prefer that or just don't care

 

[CMDR Yates]

This lack of persistence extends to "persistent" signal sources like Distress Calls as well (unless it's been fixed recently):

You'd arrive at the signal source to find Guy Incognito in a Type 6 that's run out of fuel, begging for a top-up...

You'd go to a station and pick up some fuel transfer limpets...

You'd return to the EXACT SAME signal source before it expires...

To find it's now Joey Jo-Jo Junior Shabadoo in a Python with a busted powerplant, begging for a repair


It's gotta cost like a few kilobytes to hold on to name, ship, and ship status for the duration of a mission or scenario.

 

[Djpess]

Never let em get away. Target their power plant or fsd or distributor

I learned the lesson

thanks mate

 

[Djpess]

This lack of persistence extends to "persistent" signal sources like Distress Calls as well (unless it's been fixed recently):

You'd arrive at the signal source to find Guy Incognito in a Type 6 that's run out of fuel, begging for a top-up...

You'd go to a station and pick up some fuel transfer limpets...

You'd return to the EXACT SAME signal source before it expires...

To find it's now Joey Jo-Jo Junior Shabadoo in a Python with a busted powerplant, begging for a repair


It's gotta cost like a few kilobytes to hold on to name, ship, and ship status for the duration of a mission or scenario.

yours and my situation as far as I'm concerned are easily resolved with a few lines of code. Another thing that also occurs is when you have some cargo to rescue and when you arrive at the place something is missing. So it is necessary to leave the place and go back to find all the items there as if nothing had happened before. This is very meaningless.

 

[Djpess]

Yep, Dragsham knows of which he speaks.

Back in the Day Power Plant or FSD or Distributor was the 1st thing I always targeted, always back when I used gimballed weps only. Then I got gud... and over confident... and I started using wep combos that were more effective and STOPPED targeting Pwr, dist or FSD and then the strangest thing occured - enemy kept getting away.

Now the 1st thing I do when a combat starts is target what Dragsham said. They don't get away now - well - at least not as often anyway.

Live and Learn...

my question in this case is if you can hit the fsd or power plant with shields still active

 

[Djpess]

It's not an obviously nonsense feature of the game, op. It's not something that could likely be improved. In fact, that kind of somewhat broken, enjoyment spoiling stuff is loved around these parts. It's not the game that's wrong, you made the mistake.

Yes, you just need to gitgud.

You've been told. Don't do it again.

Spoiler

/sarcasm

the game does not save the status of a miserable npc is a very serious failure. It is absurd. It is something that should never occur in a game that aims to be a simulator. Nothing will convince me otherwise.

 

[Djpess]

Seriously though, this is something that I wish fdev would change. Persistent npcs, most definitely ones tied to missions, was something they proposed in the original design docs and this inconsistency really messes that up.

It'd be OK if some did it if they had the right modules to repair. But that's not why they regenerate. And it's obvious.

Actually letting them escape isn't relevant. It's not possible for everyone to stop every possible npc opponent 100% of the time, even targeting drives or fsd; even if you can this is not the "fix" for a game dev continuity error. They will sometimes get away (and I think it's fine that they do). But then you should either have to hunt them down again and finish them off because the damage persists (and this option should be 100% possible with mission targets) or not see them again within a reasonable time frame (random targets).

if it had taken more than 10 or 15 min to find him again, I would even imagine that he had time to recover from the damage. But it was almost 1 min at most. I don't think there is anything that repairs damage in supercruise

 

[Djpess]

What would happen if NPCs were more persistent though?

A) They are realistic - they head to a station and get repaired. So from our POV they cannot be found for 30 minutes, then appear fully repaired. I don't see that as fun gameplay, having to wait for them to repair.
B) They are unrealistic - they reappear damaged. In which case the complaints would be 'I always need 2+ attempts to kill an NPC, and it's boring as the second time they are half-ded'.

I just don't see either as better than what we have

Edit: Ninjad

he could maintain the damage, since the damage occurred and in supercruise you can't repair the damage. So it's his problem if it happens since the damage has occurred. The question is whether all npcs are cowards and runaways which would show that there is little variation in reaction. This is much worse. And in case the npc runs to go and fix it, it would give us a chance to chase them since there is a trail of escape. Making the game more realistic is the minimum. Making them have varied and consistent reactions is a sign of quality for a game.