Bullet Sponge NPCs - Does Anyone Enjoy This?

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

Just curious, not a rant at all.

My personal opinion on bullet sponge NPC's is, I don't like it.
Most NPC's aren't particularly difficult to kill, they just take a long time.
Which in most cases (especially CZ T-10s), just involves holding the trigger until a pretty explosions happens. Not difficult at all, just a slow process, and you're rarely in any danger, and you don't even need to do much else.

Spec ops in CZs can be quite lethal in groups, but 1v1 is never an issue.
Again, they just take a long time to kill.

Personally, what I consider a fun battle, is being outnumbered by high damage output NPC's, but with weaker shields and hulls.

A good way to do this pre-3.3 was carry cargo in to RES sites and CNBs.
All hell would break loose, you'd be quickly under attack by multiple opponents, most of them weren't particularly tanky, but offen did a lot of damage.

Back in the old days of 1.4 I believe, some missions would spawn 11 sidewinders in wings to try and kill. Unfortunately a bug meant they weren't flagged as mission targets, but still, diving in to and 11v1 fight was hell of a good fight. Offen being pecked to death in the process. (pre-Engineers!)

All my favourite battles seem to involve fighting when I'm outnumbered, and outgunned.
Even a bugged assassination mission doubled up two Elite Corvettes to take on, in my Python.
That was fun.


If it were possible, I'd ask FD to tone down the hitpoints on NPC's, and increase their damage and numbers instead.

What are your opinions?
Do you like the bullet sponges, more weaker opponents, or something else?

 

[Aashenfox]

As I metnioned on the discord and will state here for public evaluation...While I agree that bullet sponges aren't the only way or the best way to accomplish a difficulty hike; compared to what we had before, yes, I enjoy the new CZs more.

CZs aren't a place to just go shoot a few NPCs and collect a few credits, that's what RES and CNBs are for. CZs are the place where BGS wars are won and lost. There are two important things that the new system promotes...

1) It means that a few casual pilots who aren't BGS specialists, jumping in and killing a few ships for a laugh, is unlikely to be critical in the outcome of a war if BGS players are putting dedicated effort in. In the past, CZs were easy enough that a group just having an afternoon in a CZ could have a strong effect on the war.
2) New pilots with less well equipped ships and or less developed skills, are rightly and properly, not able to keep up with CZ monsters such as those that we employ when we want to actually win a conflict.

Essentially, conflict zones are not just toys and should not be accessible to 'just any' player. I like that they have now shifted toward being an end game activity. But once again, yes, bullet sponges seems a little unimaginative. But I'm loathe to complain, as they're so much better than what we had. When FD irons out the details of the mechanics, I'll be really happy with them, bullet sponges and all.

 

[Cmdr Ultra]

A good way to do this pre-3.3 was carry cargo in to RES sites and CNBs.
All hell would break loose, you'd be quickly under attack by multiple opponents

So what's changed here after 3.3? I haven't had cargo in Res for a while.

Also I'm opposed to weakening NPC's in any way. They need all the help they can get.
AI needs access to more engineering. New CZ's and ATR are good first steps.

The new CZ's made me change my weapon loadouts to be successful. As Aashenfox mentions CZ's need to remain an endgame activity.

 

[Trollymctrollerson]

I'd like to see hit points on player and NPC ships either cut in half or have the damage of all weapons doubled. Basically the same result. A "dogfight" game has turned into a battle of attrition game and a contest of who has mooar ammo or mooar shield cells. It bothers me.

 

[Aashenfox]

I'd like to see hit points on player and NPC ships either cut in half or have the damage of all weapons doubled. Basically the same result. A "dogfight" game has turned into a battle of attrition game and a contest of who has mooar ammo or mooar shield cells. It bothers me.

I don't disagree with the fact, but then you might as well go back to pre-engineering (I know some are in favour of that, for the record I am not). The reason that defense inflated so dramatically is because Elite became a game for gankers. Meta play simply became to pick on ships with no combat outfitting with combat ships 'for the lulz'. FD had to provide at least enough defense so that traders and explorers had a fair chance at escape without sacrificing too much purpose in their build. They now have this (and how ironic it is that they are blaming engineering for them getting ganked, when pvp has becaome a game of bullet sponges, because engineering was changed for THEM...I digress), and the result is that player ships are bullet sponges. FD simply did what was required to bring NPC ships closer in line to players, they gave them engineering. I think most people are in favour of at least 'some' NPCs having access to the exact same equipment that we do, I certainly am, and that will naturally result in huge defense values, cos that's what players have. Rock and a hard place for FD now. If we increase offensive values or decrease defensive values, explorers and traders are more victims than they've ever been before.

 

[Cmdr Ultra]

I'd like to see hit points on player ships...….either cut in half or have the damage of all weapons doubled.

You have to give players the tools to defend themselves - if they choose in general Open play.

This would give too much power to the aggressor.

 

[Crank Larson]

It should take a long time to take a down a T-10.

 

[bladebss]

Npcs and players should be treated the same. We can be bullet sponges so can they. If it changes it should change for npcs and players alike.

Im against the massive ttks and the funneled meta of shields plasma and rails it has created. But whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[Hooplah]

The fact that NPCs have much stronger hulls while the live player didn't get a buff doesn't seem to be the best way offer more challenging combat. All it really did in a CZ is to have the player hold down the trigger longer and restock ammo more often. Meanwhile interdicted trading ships if they fight are more at a disadvantage unless they carry less cargo with more engineered defense and weapons. It just extends a fight with no real change in a challenging NPC.

 

[Stealthie]

Just curious, not a rant at all.

My personal opinion on bullet sponge NPC's is, I don't like it.
Most NPC's aren't particularly difficult to kill, they just take a long time.

Uhuh,

I don't find it as annoying as some people seem to but it is a bit of a ham-fisted way of trying to apply some "balance".

Seems like it would have been easier just to dial-up the quantity of opposition rather than keeping the numbers the same but making them more resilient.
At least, that way, you'd feel like you were an ace pilot, rather than just sitting there, pummeling an AspS (or whatever) for 30 seconds before it finally bursts.

Course, ideally they'd actually de-lobotomise the NPCs rather than just putting brain-dead NPCs into Adamantium ships.
Without exaggeration, I tried a CZ the other day and I killed as many ships by boosting into them while they tried to perch on my bow as I did with my lasers. [sad]

 

[Stigbob]

I prefer them as they are now. Its more challenging and fun.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

I'm certainly glad I already grinded this 1000000 Cr combat bonds creds to give to those engineers I dont even remember the name before this patch hit.

Of course, the pro-pvp/pro-bgs crowd obviously needs proper insulation from those filthy casuals who dont even own Horizon and will just try the game for 60 hours and leave a negative review on steam.

 

[Stigbob]

I'm certainly glad I already grinded this 1000000 Cr combat bonds creds to give to those engineers I dont even remember the name before this patch hit.

Of course, the pro-pvp/pro-bgs crowd obviously needs proper insulation from those filthy casuals who dont even own Horizon and will just try the game for 60 hours and leave a negative review on steam.

Are there any forumites left griping they don't have Horizons ?. There was one I remember but he seems to have left months ago.

 

[who?]

I agree, but not sure what the alternative is. If you just make NPCs more fragile it's too easy. If you make them fragile and with much stronger weapons, newer/non-combat players will be ticked off.

I've seen some weird behaviour recently though. I've found Elite/Deadly Anacondas in a RES can be quite... time-consuming and tedious to take down. But in one specific case I was slowly... slowly... taking down their hull (parked right behind them, less than 1km away) and the percentage drop started slowing... then stopped. I was about 15 seconds hitting them with all 6 hardpoints, and their hull didn't drop by a single percent more. (And yes, I was certainly hitting them). Eventually I had to turn tail and run, since their wingmates were hitting me all this time.

 

[Stealthie]

Npcs and players should be treated the same. We can be bullet sponges so can they. If it changes it should change for npcs and players alike.

I don't disagree with this but I'm also not convinced that's what we currently have.

I mean, if an NPC shows up in a CZ flying a Corvette like mine, sure.
Let's have some with engineered weapons and that are loaded up with defences.
It'd be nice if there were some NPC ships that a player still had to genuinely worry about.

When you're getting Novices in Eagles that just require you to hold the trigger down for twice as long before they explode, that doesn't do much for the challenge or the fun. It just takes longer to achieve the same thing, with the same lack of consequences for the player.

For me, places like RES's, CNBs and CZs simply became more tedious when if became almost a "requirement" to collect mat's in them and they simply became even more tedious with the recent update.
No big deal.
I can manage to pull the trigger for long enough to destroy any of the new, improved, ships.
I don't see any improvement to gameplay in that though.

 

[Stealthie]

I've seen some weird behaviour recently though. I've found Elite/Deadly Anacondas in a RES can be quite... time-consuming and tedious to take down. But in one specific case I was slowly... slowly... taking down their hull (parked right behind them, less than 1km away) and the percentage drop started slowing... then stopped. I was about 15 seconds hitting them with all 6 hardpoints, and their hull didn't drop by a single percent more. (And yes, I was certainly hitting them). Eventually I had to turn tail and run, since their wingmates were hitting me all this time.

There's a known bug related to that.

Basically, it seems to be something to do with you inflicting a heap of damage in a short time and the game just loses track and the Annie stops taking damage for a while.

 

[[VR] M4st0d0n]

Are there any forumites left griping they don't have Horizons ?. There was one I remember but he seems to have left months ago.

There was again a recent thread about making Horizon free just about last week or this month. Where were you my good Stig?

Those people, it seems they come back again and again.

 

[Hooplah]

I'm certainly glad I already grinded this 1000000 Cr combat bonds creds to give to those engineers...

Going for the easier low CZ? I made 300k credits for 8 ships. Math says that's about 29 ships to make the 1 million credits...which is after taking out 50 ships for Juryi Ishmaak's second requirement. Add twice or more the amount of time taking out those NPC hulls.

 

[Stigbob]

There was again a recent thread about making Horizon free just about last week or this month. Where were you my good Stig?

Those people, it seems they come back again and again.

That thread was created by people 'concerned' on behalf of the mythical non-horizons owners, none of them actually don't have it.

 

[Stealthie]

There was again a recent thread about making Horizon free just about last week or this month. Where were you my good Stig?

Do you think those are people who don't own Horizons?

Personally, I think it'd be a great idea if FDev consolidated ED and Horizons simply because it'd mean they wouldn't have to worry about catering to both Horizons and non-Horizons owners when developing future content.