Bullet Sponge NPCs - Does Anyone Enjoy This?

[DeathFish]

Two tier system

We have three types of rez and combat zones that are suppose to reflect difficulty and rewards. We should scale them accordingly. Leave the engineered ships in the hazard res and high conflict zones but increase rewards to compensate. Make low rez and such easier for new poilet but decrease rewards. Easy fix.

Fdev have created a two tier player system here with Horizons and the OP may well be a case of them trying to get around it. If the NPCs had been left as they were, engineered ships would eat them in seconds and we would all be complaining. As it is, it now takes somewhat longer to kill them and we are still complaining (-:

I am very much against anything that adds more rules or more grind to the game, though, because it dilutes the fun. Drawing clearer lines between what can be found in each type of REZ/CZ would be a way around it. Noobs have got to start somewhere so low REZs would have to cater for them, though.

While Horizons remains payware DLC then the problem of balance won’t go away, because the proportion of non engineered NPC is going to have to be kept artificially high out of fairness to the players that don’t have it. And even if Horizons was rolled into the base package, then Fdev would have to cut some slack for casual players, or potential new recruits will be put off the game before they appreciate that there is fun to be had.

 

[Trollymctrollerson]

I don't disagree with the fact, but then you might as well go back to pre-engineering (I know some are in favour of that, for the record I am not). The reason that defense inflated so dramatically is because Elite became a game for gankers. Meta play simply became to pick on ships with no combat outfitting with combat ships 'for the lulz'. FD had to provide at least enough defense so that traders and explorers had a fair chance at escape without sacrificing too much purpose in their build. They now have this (and how ironic it is that they are blaming engineering for them getting ganked, when pvp has becaome a game of bullet sponges, because engineering was changed for THEM...I digress), and the result is that player ships are bullet sponges. FD simply did what was required to bring NPC ships closer in line to players, they gave them engineering. I think most people are in favour of at least 'some' NPCs having access to the exact same equipment that we do, I certainly am, and that will naturally result in huge defense values, cos that's what players have. Rock and a hard place for FD now. If we increase offensive values or decrease defensive values, explorers and traders are more victims than they've ever been before.

I have addressed the issue of helpless traders vs engineered gankers in other threads with a simple solution. All weapons get damage doubled and a new type of shield booster that occupies a weapons hardpoint. This would allow traders to stack far more defense than attackers can stack but also makes them less threatening. Gankers could increase defense but only at the expense of firepower. With Engineering being what is, players can and do maximize both firepower and defense without one detracting from the other. Right now giving up weapons does nothing to increase defense. As far as NPCs go, I just want to see the program emulate player made configs. Let it recreate load outs sourced straight from player accounts. That's really what's fair.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

I have addressed the issue of helpless traders vs engineered gankers in other threads with a simple solution. All weapons get damage doubled and a new type of shield booster that occupies a weapons hardpoint. This would allow traders to stack far more defense than attackers can stack but also makes them less threatening. Gankers could increase defense but only at the expense of firepower. With Engineering being what is, players can and do maximize both firepower and defense without one detracting from the other. Right now giving up weapons does nothing to increase defense. As far as NPCs go, I just want to see the program emulate player made configs. Let it recreate load outs sourced straight from player accounts. That's really what's fair.

I think engineering allows nearly anyone to survive a gank, but that said, I also had a suggestion for a similar effect a while back, it goes like this;

Part 1) FSD class and rating now governs supercruise speed and agility. Modifications can be made to further improve this, at the cost of power and mass (not range).
This basically forces all PvP "interceptors" to fit a good/modified FSD, which increaes power consumption, and mass (important, see below). Also has the bonus of mission runners having faster supercruise, should they so choose.

Part 2) Increase power requirements for shields, boosters and SCBs.
Also Increase power requirements on all weapons, and possibly reduce power plant sizes on some, and increase others. Ships being able to power both near invincible shields and high powered weapons is a major problem.
You then have to choose what's more important. Defences, offences, or a balanced mix.

Part 3) Increase mass on armour, and make thrusters more sensitive to mass increases in some cases.
You then need to choose armour, speed or balanced.

In theory, the result should be you simply need to choose offence Vs defense, and speed Vs armour.
I can imagine getting all those tweaks working together, on all ships, being an absolute nightmare, but that's not my problem. Lol

 

[anikaiful]

Torgue from Borderland 2 would not be amused. Not enough exploding ships per second. He'd grow bored with every single fight (just like how I do).

 

[Aashenfox]

Bolded section: since I don't BGS, am I correct in assuming that you are referring to players here, or do you actually mean through your BGS efforts you are able to affect the quality of NPC spawns to tilt the war in your favor?

Thanks.

Riôt

Talking pure equipment in terms of optimally engineered ships and high sustained dps weapons loadouts that suit CZ style combat above all else.

 

[Jmanis]

Yep, I enjoy it.

FWIW, I just cleared a high-intensity CZ, downing one ship per minute on average (more like 1.2 kills per minute, but eh). Is that not reasonable?

EDIT: And another... 23 kills in 20 minutes and cleared the high-intensity CZ.

Using an engineered Krait MK2

 

[Flin]

Some balancing tweaks and bug fixes are required, but like that CZ ships are realistically built for combat (tankier) than res or cnb ships.

Low intensity CZ have less tankier and have lower ranked ships, but you can be ganged up on. Might be better for those that like to rack up kills with occasional danger situation.

I found medium intensity ones to be a good balance. There are spec ops that work as a wing, but can be pulled away for 1 on 1.

My experience with high intensity is either lop-sided if there is a battlecruiser (haven't had one routed yet) or actually difficult to win the battle. Higher ranked fighter with spec ops that fight in tighter formation (likely due to sheer numbers in the furball) rather than a change in AI.

I have been targeting higher ranked, less tankier ships for my combat tank gain and massacre mission count, so this might not have been a good strategy to win the battle.

 

[MrFailfactory]

Talking pure equipment in terms of optimally engineered ships and high sustained dps weapons loadouts that suit CZ style combat above all else.

Thanks for the clarification - I wouldn't really know the full ramifications, but the ability to affect NPC spawns to protect your systems/help you expand into new ones might be an interesting BGS wrinkle, if done correctly.

Riôt

 

[Starman 1966]

Although I don't mind NPCs being tankier now, some things have become a bit weird recently, e.g.

- killing an "elite" pirate lord in a Corvette is accomplished faster compared to an "expert" FDS in a low-intensity CZ
- even classical shield tanks / hull weaklings like the FdL eat ammo like popcorn once shields are down and seem to have thermal hull resistances around 80 or 90%, just try to get the hull of such a NPC down with a small corrosive MC and a huge efficient beam laser - it takes ages
- as NPCs try to run away, I target the FSD rather than the PP now, but interestingly they easily wake out with their FSD at 2% - mine is resetting all of the time when slightly below 75%

Matters should be reworked IMHO.

 

[EternalSorrow]

Health pool needs some big tweaks, NPCs are not the only bullet sponges in game. Time-to-kill has grown about 5-10x since the release times, 10 min mediums duels are really weird. It doesn't make a game more difficult (because with an almost 100% probability you are flying engineered craft also), just annoys more, and makes the game less skill-dependent.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I hate them. They were the last drop that made the barrel overflow. Engineer crap and then being served bulletsponge as "incentive" for grinding more stupid power juice.

 

[Muetdhiver]

No. I don't enjoy it.

However, this is what people asked for with the outcry against FDev tentative shield/hull rebalance (aka : nerf) from engineering.
I mean, what did people expect ? That NPC's would never get mods ?

PvE is now experiencing what PvPers do with 20min TTK. When PvErs raged again nerfing 11K shield to "only" 5K, maybe they should have
put more tought into it. Well now we have NPC's with 2-3K effective hull. Water under the bridge.

Be thankfull FDev did not add cutters with 11K shields in CZ's lol.

Having ship defences up by +1000% from engineering while buffing the offence by only +100% give the expected outcome of 5x longer TTK.

IMO FDev painted themselves into a neat little corner.

PvP has 20min TTK, PvE has sponge NPC's and engineering cannot be touched because of legacy mods. Hilarious.

 

[deleteduser]

Easy NPCs aren't easy enough? Insert [Win] meme here.

If you head over to Wolf 397, you can find a guy called Tod "The Blaster" McQuinn. He's a right laugh, a little psychopathic but... anyway, he can upgrade your bullets and MC's to deliver somewhere around 70% more damage than standard. You can also visit the right-hand panel in your cockpit, push a few buttons and get another 30% increase in damage per round.

When the NPC's start soaking up corrosive and incendiary rounds, they become a lot less spongy.

 

[Braddux27]

CZ's are fine IMO. Fun and somewhat challenging. If you dont want to spend too much time on an enemy, equip a couple of rails with super pen and focus the power plant after taking shields down with PA or lasers. I took down a cutter in less than a minute with this tactic. He still had 77% hull when he exploded. Theres ways around bullet soak npcs.

Happy Hunting!

 

[Sylow]

My line if thought is along what some others already have stated: health inflation is a thing of engineers. It's quite logical that higher ranked NPCs also have access to this. We're not there yet. Well built player ships still have a good deal more health and shields than what even the upgraded NPCs have. But apparently it's now enough for many people to deliver the message.

So yes, i am all in favor of reducing health, but not by nerfing NPCs, but by bringing engineering blueprints in line. I mean, i get it: FD wanted to sell engineers by making them provide a lot of power. But even 10% or 15% more power would've been a lot. Now we have around +70% offense and +700% (!!!) defense. It's just too much and needs to be brought under control.

Next to everything else, this is a thing of the games health. We have a split through the community. Beginners which struggle to get their foot on the ground, while older players complain that things are too easy. Finding the balance between that already was hard in the old system. With the current inflated defenses it's now completely impossible. They indeed painted themselves into a corner.

The game would really need to crack down on engineering blueprints and reduce the power gains there. Unfortunately the community already was up in arms and crying rivers of tears when rather small nerfs were attempted, e.c.during the 2.3 beta. Most of those who actually tested were fine with the changes, but many players who either openly stated to never even have logged into the beta or even didn't have access to it clearly found that these nerfs would break their game and they could not stand them

FD caved under that pressure. Now we get these NPCs. I expect more NPCs again having heavily engineered ships in the next big patch. The question is, how long will it take till the community at large starts to accept that current power levels of engineers are a problem which needs to be addressed at the core?

 

[Kenneth McGrew]

i hate bullet sponges, puts me right off combat.

the whole stacking of HRPs and Shield packs i just feel is wrong, both on a self protection front but also turning NPCs and other ships into bullet sponges.

Personally i would like to see ships restricted to one type of each module, i would even go further and restrict categories, ie no stacking HRPs with guardian ones, pick one or other, equally SCB or Sheild reinforcement - not both,

and only one shield booster.

but hey, thats my opinion dont matter if its right or wrong - have a beautiful day!

 

[Bortas]

Yep, I enjoy it.

FWIW, I just cleared a high-intensity CZ, downing one ship per minute on average (more like 1.2 kills per minute, but eh). Is that not reasonable?

I'm enjoying it, too, and hope they don't nerf them. CZs are currently the only place to find some decently powerful NPC opponents and it's really cool that such a place was added.

It's really not a big deal with a resaonably well-engineered ship... just need some weapons with high sustained DPS, i.e. a beam laser / frag cannon mix.

 

[EternalSorrow]

I'm enjoying it, too, and hope they don't nerf them. CZs are currently the only place to find some decently powerful NPC opponents and it's really cool that such a place was added.

It's really not a big deal with a resaonably well-engineered ship... just need some weapons with high sustained DPS, i.e. a beam laser / frag cannon mix.

You can make an NPC 10x more durable and with 5x more firepower, but that won't make them more interesting enemies. They still will be stupid and silly-fitted enough, without any intention to outmaneuver you, evade your fire or cooperate with other NPCs. Make them fatter is a very cheap and ineffective way to make combat more interesting.

NPCs should play by the same rules as the player, and be smart enough to build well-optimised builds for their purposes, learn basic combat positioning and fire evasion at least. The only thing they can do well now is to keep you in the sight, but that makes zero sense due to the lack of basic combat flying skills.

 

[Bortas]

You can make an NPC 10x more durable and with 5x more firepower, but that won't make them more interesting enemies. They still will be stupid and silly-fitted enough, without any intention to outmaneuver you, evade your fire or cooperate with other NPCs. Make them fatter is a very cheap and ineffective way to make combat more interesting.

You are not wrong, but it's better than nothing. Compared to the RES-cannonfodder I find the CZ ones considerably more interesting to fight. Of course there's still room for improvements.

 

[MAUXUS]

It seems a bit too much. I don't think it makes sense that you have to use half of the Frag Cannons ammo (two high capacity G3, screening shell and drag munitions) and two SCBs just to take down a FAS (or was it an FGS? can't remember). Or half the Multi Cannons ammunition to complete a Low CZ (two overcharged G5 fired together with two G2 efficient burst lasers, and occasionally a G5 Focused PA). I constantly get and average of 5-6 ships per Low CZ. That average gets even worse if you happen to engage with a T10 or a conda during your Low CZ session. At least double the amount of ammo we can carry maybe?