C&P/ATR feedback - please consider implementation

[StiTch]

See I think the problem is that you're not looking at the whole picture. You're just looking at ATR in the context of "will it stop any particular gank from happening?" And you rightly identify that the answer is "no". But when you take a step back and look at how all of this figures in with the bounty/rebuy system, the prison ships, the progressive offsets and increases to rebuys (for victim and perpetrator respectively), the notariety system, the restricted System Services via anonymous protocols, the restrictions and challenges that go with "hot" ships and modules; what it will almost certainly add up to is LESS ganking overall, and a concentration of that behavior to Anarchy systems and their immediate neighbors.

We'll see how well people are able to exploit/loophole their way around the system when the beta hits soon, but so far this is one part of the update that I am very optimistic about, and impressed by the thoughtfulness that has gone into it.

I agree the focus of OP was probably a little ATR-centric but the point is still valid either way: the general direction of C&P is towards removing all hope of a game where crime is a valid gameplay choice.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I keep seeing assumptions how new C&P will destroy PvP. Could we just wait for weekend and see what early feedback is like? You know it is beta right? Where numbers are tuned and lot of tweaking happening.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I agree the focus of OP was probably a little ATR-centric but the point is still valid either way: the general direction of C&P is towards removing all hope of a game where crime is a valid gameplay choice.

That depends on how non-murderous crime is handled, doesn't it?

 

[StiTch]

That depends on how non-murderous crime is handled, doesn't it?

No, not really.

The crime approach needs to be reviewed overall. As I've just pointed out on another thread criminal activities are all basically the lowest paying in the game; when my newer character looks at mission boards he will quite consistently see a couple of piracy missions at 50k a piece and 20 odd data missions at 200k+ a piece, location regardless.

This is compounded by what I've brought up specifically in OP, whereby FD are attempting to develop C&P to handle criminals more effectively, but the only criminal that needs handling more effectively is the mindless murderer - which will barely be affected because yet again, you cannot enforce death on PvP players through PvE means unless you're prepared to restructure fundamental balance aspects like NPC difficulty and combat logging punishment.

You have a good memory!

The load out on my Cutter has changed a little since back then, hopefully it somewhat mitigates long drawn out face tanking fights.

And I learned to fly something bigger than an iCourier properly Actually once I got the hang of the cutter I started to appreciate the slower ships a little more.

If you're up for a rematch any point I would be most appreciative.

 

[Robert Maynard]

This is compounded by what I've brought up specifically in OP, whereby FD are attempting to develop C&P to handle criminals more effectively, but the only criminal that needs handling more effectively is the mindless murderer - which will barely be affected because yet again, you cannot enforce death on PvP players through PvE means unless you're prepared to restructure fundamental balance aspects like NPC difficulty.

Regarding ATR's capability to provide enforcement on PvP players:

I am super grinning! ATR ships are all super-engineered, all piloted by Elite pilots with everything dialled to max, plus with some extra bits of AI logic thrown in for good measure! They have some pretty awesome weaponry, so don't expect those engineered shields to last long against these beasties! If you fight against these, you WILL be taking damage, so it becomes a question of how much you're prepared to spend on repairs... And if by some miracle you manage to destroy one, expect more and more to come...

.... we'll see, as it rather seems that the challenge posed by ATR NPCs will be raised significantly.

 

[StiTch]

.... we'll see, as it rather seems that the challenge posed by ATR NPCs will be raised significantly.

And as I edited in just a moment later, what'll happen when the murderer combat logs?

I mean, you agree with seal clubbers massacring some noobs and then menu logging to avoid their demise of course, don't you? I mean it's just them playing their way

 

[Robert Maynard]

And as I edited in just a moment later, what'll happen when the murderer combat logs?

How does the game determine that the player, in fact, combat logged? Especially if they were alone in the instance with ATR. However, I'd expect that players that regularly suffered "disconnections" when in combat with ATR might find that there'd be karmic consequences.

Bit of a hard discussion to have with yourself of course. I mean, you agree with seal clubbers massacring some noobs and then menu logging to avoid their demise of course, don't you? I mean it's just them playing their way

I don't see that such gameplay is beneficial to the game, however it is possible. Whether the ship will survive for 15 seconds in the presence of an ATR response (especially if menu exit when the target of ATR is logged in relation to karma) is debatable.

The introduction of ATR, as part of the revised C&P in general, would, from what Ed and Sandro said in last Tuesday's stream, be for the health of the game.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

And as I edited in just a moment later, what'll happen when the murderer combat logs?

I mean, you agree with seal clubbers massacring some noobs and then menu logging to avoid their demise of course, don't you? I mean it's just them playing their way

First of all, he will get tired of doing it all the time. And now it will be a regular thing.

Second, Karma system.

 

[StiTch]

How does the game determine that the player, in fact, combat logged? Especially if they were alone in the instance with ATR. However, I'd expect that players that regularly suffered "disconnections" when in combat with ATR might find that there'd be karmic consequences.

Like all the consequences FD promised were being put upon task killers before SCD proved it's a repeated lie?

I don't see that such gameplay is beneficial to the game, however it is possible. Whether the ship will survive for 15 seconds in the presence of an ATR response (especially if menu exit when the target of ATR is logged in relation to karma) is debatable.

I like SJA - she has a rare bit of fire in her for one of the FD folk - but I think she still underestimates PvP vessels. I bet you a tenner a reasonably quick vessel of mine can dump on a few folk at a surface location or similar, boost off and menu log before the crime response has the chance to harm me.

Which of course you agree is approved gameplay. Because FD condone it

And yet none of this encourages PvP bounty hunting, which I would have thought as the best avenue of PvP for FD promote, nor encourages meaningful crime. Rob my man, mind diverting from your usual "contradiction for the sake of it" and telling me what FD are doing with the "Crime" in "Crime and punishment"?

First of all, he will get tired of doing it all the time. And now it will be a regular thing.

Ah yeah, because that's been the case so far.

As karma goes, the menu log is just 15 seconds following a boost in a reasonably fast ship....and 100% approved

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I like SJA - she has a rare bit of fire in her for one of the FD folk - but I think she still underestimates PvP vessels. I bet you a tenner a reasonably quick vessel of mine can dump on a few folk at a surface location or similar, boost off and menu log before the crime response has the chance to harm me.

Sure, they most likely haven't pulled all super engineered ship configs from database, and pitted against ATR, no way sir

You really think FD is not serious about it, don't you?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Like all the consequences FD promised were being put upon task killers before SCD proved it's a repeated lie?

What did they prove, exactly?

Which of course you agree is approved gameplay. Because FD condone it

Not stopping it (yet....) is not necessarily the same as condoning it.

Rob my man, mind diverting from your usual "contradiction for the sake of it" and telling me what FD are doing with the "Crime" in "Crime and punishment"?

Providing consequences that have been sadly lacking for a long time - that would seem to be what Frontier are doing with "Crime".

 

[StiTch]

What did they prove, exactly?

You read the thread and don't need it explaining.

Not stopping it (yet....) is not necessarily the same as condoning it.

You heard it here folks, Rob says FD are going to ban menu logging!

Of course they aren't, and it's funny how you vehemently condone it when brought up against one of your favoured playstyles.

Providing consequences that have been sadly lacking for a long time - that would seem to be what Frontier are doing with "Crime".

And what about making crime meaningful as a career? As you're so acquainted with the kickstarter notes you'll know all about it being intended to be a viable career choice, where at present all avenues a) assume C&P boils down to "stop gankors" and b) still conceivably fail to achieve that.

If you aren't here to discuss the development of C&P but instead to be awkward because ya just can't keep yourself from commenting on my threads then...well actually I am flattered, but life is too short

 

[Hossi]

I dont think the upcoming c&p/atr changes have much to do with ganking/grifing. To be honest, I dont think that ganking/grifing is a relevant problem.
The upcoming changes are a core gamplay improvement that aim to fix the problem that currently system security and C&P are a joke.
I can literaly go to the highest of high security systems murder anything in sight for as long as I get bored. I can explode the security ships faster then they can extract there hardpoints. And then I can go docking in the biggest station in the system and everyting will be fine. Noone there will take any objection in dealing with a known massmurdere. The bounty for that will be on the same level as my ammunition bill.
I hope that this will change soon.
Ohh, and I dont think any of this is aiming at removing crime from the game entirely. Crime in a high secury system should be extremly challenging. Thats whats making it a crime, its required to be meaningful. Once that is achieved, we just need a good reason to go to anarchy systems.

 

[jasonbirder]

So, as all planets have ONLY one station...Its the ONLY link to Outer Space and all its associated trade/data/communications for said world...now, in many systems that might be a BOOM economy with a population of Billions and a GDP or Trillions and Trillions of Credits...
I'd like ATR to be at least on a par with the real world..

I stand outside the entrance to JFK/Heathrow Airport with a Gun...How long before there's a response...what will the response be...a similar level to myself standing outside with a gun (a couple of cops with a gun each)...a little bit more powerful (a few cops with weapons similar to mys own) or Overwhelming (Police/Tactical Response teams with more powerful weapons than me, backed up by tactical support, drones/CCTV intelligence and helicopters?
Or

 

[CMDR Carbo]

From what we have seen on the livestream, ATR aren't even triggered if you go into a system and kill one or two commanders or pirate somebody or bounty hunt.
You have to shoot down a fair amount of not wanted ships racking up a big bounty in a system before ATR is even triggered.

Also: ATR doesn't replace the normal security ship response. They are kind of a special forces / SWAT team.

 

[Robert Maynard]

You read the thread and don't need it explaining.

I read Paige's comment - that pretty much covered it, in my opinion.

You heard it here folks, Rob says FD are going to ban menu logging!

I was talking about noob-clubbing.

And what about making crime meaningful as a career? As you're so acquainted with the kickstarter notes you'll know all about it being intended to be a viable career choice, where at present all avenues a) assume C&P boils down to "stop gankors" and b) still conceivably fail to achieve that.

If you aren't here to discuss the development of C&P but instead to be awkward because ya just can't keep yourself from commenting on my threads then...well actually I am flattered, but life is too short

I'd be delighted if Frontier could make crime more of a career (which was never advertised as having no consequences....) - however, as there will be players that will choose to preferentially select other players as their targets, the effect of PvP crime will need to be carefully handled for it not to adversely affect the player targets (too much).

 

[Muetdhiver]

There is an exploity non-exploit in the BGS where one of the most effective actions is to kill Security Services. With their current fire power, any old fool in a Big 3 can camp at a Nav Beacon and is pretty much invulnerable. They have tried to fix it by turning down the effect, but the effect IS desirable, as long their are consequences and it isnt exploited. One of the phrases they used in the live stream indicates that this is at least A major reason for ATR, but maybe not the only one.

This. So much. A single player can wreck the influence of a faction that way ez-pz. It's like 10x more effective than the "regular" method of running missions :/

WRT OP : I agree that the ATR will be 99% useless at punishing gankers. FD has no clue here.

What I would do : past a certain notoriety, simply entering a non-anarchy system starts a timer to ATR arrival for intercept. The higher the security, the lower the timer.
I mean, if bin-laden showed up at JFK, how long would it take for the swats to arrive ? Would we just wait him to kill someone to act ?

 

[Querty Out]

Undoubtedly the number of ganks and murders will drop as a result of not only the ATR response but also as a result of other inconveniences crime will bring with it, provided of course that CGs continue to be placed mostly outside anarchies - you'd be fairly unlucky to encounter criminals outside of CGs these days.

If FDev wishes to crank up murder and piracy (I'm not saying they are alike) then FDev only need to place more CGs into anarchy systems; in effect the future of criminal careers can be regulated by these means to some extent.

I do expect a bit of a dry spell for pirates coming up but at the same time I see Beyond as just one step towards a more balanced C&P system and not as the end of all things; hopefully a future update will make being a criminal a valid and rewarding choice. Good guys need bad guys, right?