PvP Can PvP piracy be made engaging/rewarding for both participants - has any game every done it?

[Zeeman]

I think one possibility, is that piracy required a set of non-destructive weapons. IE - weapons that disable, but do not destroy, thus allowing for a forced hatch opening.

Throw in something interesting, like cargo canisters exploding on destruction of the pirated vessel (this would be an outfitting option), would mean that destroying a ship after disabling it means loss of the cargo, and self destruction if the cargo is in the hold of the pirate vessel.

Anyway, plenty of flaws there that I can see already, but I think the "excitement" is actually part of the fun. Engineering has made open trade a bit tricky, as a surviving an alpha strike from a highly modded PvP big 3 ship is a tough ask.

Sure, it can be done, but it requires the trader being willing to sacrifice a few credits per hour to have a viable open build, and, on top of that, actually having some piloting skill, and a good sense of awareness. The Git Gud guide T7 on youtube shows how this can be done, though I can see why many traders simply do not want to participate.

Perhaps making NPC pirates actually capable, and properly dangerous, would reduce the gap between NPC and human pirates, but, we all know what happened the last time NPC's were made properly challenging...

I generally play open (especially when dealing with CG's), and have had a single piracy encounter a few months back.

I was in an Asp X, built for smuggling. It's a high speed, low weight, no weapons, reasonable shields with a few choice augmentations to allow for survival and escape.

A CMDR in a PvP FdL interdicted me. I already had a system set, ready to jump, the plan was in my head for how to get out, his demands, however, were simple. 2 units of my cargo. easy choice. I dropped two units and boosted out. We started chatting and had a nice little conversation, he asked why I had no weapons, I pointed out the futility of taking on a PvP FDL in a smuggling ship. I pointed out my outfitting options, and he soon saw the sense in the build, even commented that it was actually quite clever.

It was fun, provided some excitement, and it was hardly a big loss - 2 units of whatever cargo I had.

Compare that to the typical NPC piracy encounter...

Z...

 

[racer1]

I quite enjoy being pirated. I guess it is the novelty value plus buzz of not knowing what will happen next.

How to make it rewarding for both parties?

Cargo insurance seems a bit meh.

Some sort of battle using weapons and counters that are just good for piracy not for normal combat could be fun.

 

[Julio Montega]

I too would actually like to see the FDEV team actually playing the roles they are about to destroy in an attempt to make players who still will get ganked and cry griefer before they release punishment and punishment.

Its like many of the people in here who have never pirated or tried PVP pirating, saying how they think pirating should work.

Remember pirating with limpets is just space pick pocketing

The most cynic and toxic part about that,
is FD just ignoring the suggestions
genuine pirates make to improve the game,
not only for pirates but for all.....

It basically is a statement in itself.
Call pirating an integral part....

I think one possibility, is that piracy required a set of non-destructive weapons. IE - weapons that disable, but do not destroy, thus allowing for a forced hatch opening.

Like the try with cytoscrambler, for which Bug footage exists that is not being watched
and the issue not being touched?
Cytoscrambler with scramble specturm = non lethal approach.

Throw in something interesting, like cargo canisters exploding on destruction of the pirated vessel (this would be an outfitting option), would mean that destroying a ship after disabling it means loss of the cargo, and self destruction if the cargo is in the hold of the pirate vessel.

I do not see any benfit from that idea + piracy vessels already require a high count of internals
for the tools at hand.
Instead allow for universal limpet controllers.

Anyway, plenty of flaws there that I can see already, but I think the "excitement" is actually part of the fun. Engineering has made open trade a bit tricky, as a surviving an alpha strike from a highly modded PvP big 3 ship is a tough ask.

Sure, it can be done, but it requires the trader being willing to sacrifice a few credits per hour to have a viable open build, and, on top of that, actually having some piloting skill, and a good sense of awareness. The Git Gud guide T7 on youtube shows how this can be done, though I can see why many traders simply do not want to participate.

Perhaps making NPC pirates actually capable, and properly dangerous, would reduce the gap between NPC and human pirates, but, we all know what happened the last time NPC's were made properly challenging...

I suggested the fix multiple times for that,
allowing traders to have a fighting chance:
Remove hitpoint modules.
Traders then can fire back and have a damage
output sufficient of fending off the attacker.
Of course would traders still be required to use shields,
or get buffs like the Lakon t-series buff for hull.

 

[Weps]

One of my last experiences in Open before I decided to bin this game involved trying to engineer a blockade runner Clipper and put it to the test in running the gauntlet in a CG in Open. And for a while I had fun, I was interdicted, I managed to escape by the skin of my teeth, had some quips with the pirates, did cool SC maneuvers to escape ships, until the network code decided to allow another player FdL which spawned 90deg to my left, to successfully interdict me instantly! without the option to submit, bam! FSD cooldown, engineered FdL is OPop dead in 10 seconds.

My point is this: before talking about the motivation for a player to engage in this kind of encounter, take a few steps back, and look a little at the actual encounter and how it plays out. Is it more or less fun than a game of Spider Solitaire?

The root of the problem comes from so many deep, old design decisions. Making "merchant ships" inherently weaker in terms of combat, then forcing them to do combat, doesn't help. Engineer loadouts which take you out in seconds don't help. Reducing most of these events to one-button-press gameplay in the form high-waking doesn't help. Even the latest CLogging scandal which shows that actually everyone is allowed their day in the Open sun, instead of politely asking players with bad connections and even worse nerves, to do themselves and each other a favor, and restrict themselves to a private group, doesn't help.

In conclusion, I'd wager a good number of players would not mind getting involved in a piracy event, IF it was any fun. They'd do it for the sake of the multiplayer interaction alone, regardless of its consequences on the character, because going against a player is more fun and less predictable than playing against the computer. As it stands though, grinding credits in Solo by clicking in menus seems to be more fun than FDEV's whiteboard concept of what happens when two players meet.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The root of the problem comes from so many deep, old design decisions. Making "merchant ships" inherently weaker in terms of combat, then forcing them to do combat, doesn't help. Engineer loadouts which take you out in seconds don't help. Reducing most of these events to one-button-press gameplay in the form high-waking doesn't help. Even the latest CLogging scandal which shows that actually everyone is allowed their day in the Open sun, instead of politely asking players with bad connections and even worse nerves, to do themselves and each other a favor, and restrict themselves to a private group, doesn't help.

In conclusion, I'd wager a good number of players would not mind getting involved in a piracy event, IF it was any fun. They'd do it for the sake of the multiplayer interaction alone, regardless of its consequences on the character, because going against a player is more fun and less predictable than playing against the computer. As it stands though, grinding credits in Solo by clicking in menus seems to be more fun than FDEV's whiteboard concept of what happens when two players meet.

Some very good points.

I've written the odd post about how i think it would be good if trade ships were tankier, although i'm sure like most people i haven't thought things through fully, but survivability is a key factor if people want others to trade.

Has any game done this? Made the sheep tough enough to stand up to the foxes?

 

[Julio Montega]

Some very good points.

I've written the odd post about how i think it would be good if trade ships were tankier, although i'm sure like most people i haven't thought things through fully, but survivability is a key factor if people want others to trade.

Has any game done this? Made the sheep tough enough to stand up to the foxes?

Eve online has quick response undefeatable police that jumps in
on an assault in high sec.

Rebel Galaxy has NPCs helping you, depending on reputation.
Starpoint Gemini has pretty tanky traders, but you can have NPC
wingmen aswell.

So yes, not everywhere ships are as squishy,
but with elite that comes from the outfitting.
I point i wish to be revisited.
I think trade ships should generally have a cargo hold,
whether they fit stuff or not in the optional internals,
so that would allow them for even more cargo space.
But then again, no one asked trade ships ever to run
max cargo with no defenses.

 

[Stigbob]

Some very good points.

I've written the odd post about how i think it would be good if trade ships were tankier, although i'm sure like most people i haven't thought things through fully, but survivability is a key factor if people want others to trade.

Has any game done this? Made the sheep tough enough to stand up to the foxes?

My trade ships just my war conda with the HRP's/fighter bay lazily swapped for cargo bays, it's sluggish when full but still a reasonably nifty fighting vessel (I usually make more from bounties than cargo when I use it). How about a mass reducing modification for cargo bays, that way even fully loaded traders would not be quite so completely outmatched (provided they had an armed shielded build).

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

To make PvP piracy an entertaining aspect of a game it needs to be designed into the core of the game.

Elite Dangerous is not even designed around the concept of PvP at its core, PvP piracy is simply something that will never really work in ED.

 

[Han_Zen]

One of my last experiences in Open before I decided to bin this game involved trying to engineer a blockade runner Clipper and put it to the test in running the gauntlet in a CG in Open. And for a while I had fun, I was interdicted, I managed to escape by the skin of my teeth, had some quips with the pirates, did cool SC maneuvers to escape ships, until the network code decided to allow another player FdL which spawned 90deg to my left, to successfully interdict me instantly! without the option to submit, bam! FSD cooldown, engineered FdL is OPop dead in 10 seconds.

My point is this: before talking about the motivation for a player to engage in this kind of encounter, take a few steps back, and look a little at the actual encounter and how it plays out. Is it more or less fun than a game of Spider Solitaire?

The root of the problem comes from so many deep, old design decisions. Making "merchant ships" inherently weaker in terms of combat, then forcing them to do combat, doesn't help. Engineer loadouts which take you out in seconds don't help. Reducing most of these events to one-button-press gameplay in the form high-waking doesn't help. Even the latest CLogging scandal which shows that actually everyone is allowed their day in the Open sun, instead of politely asking players with bad connections and even worse nerves, to do themselves and each other a favor, and restrict themselves to a private group, doesn't help.

In conclusion, I'd wager a good number of players would not mind getting involved in a piracy event, IF it was any fun. They'd do it for the sake of the multiplayer interaction alone, regardless of its consequences on the character, because going against a player is more fun and less predictable than playing against the computer. As it stands though, grinding credits in Solo by clicking in menus seems to be more fun than FDEV's whiteboard concept of what happens when two players meet.

The strength difference between a merchant ship fitted for defense and a top combat build is vast. Even when we are talking about the same type of ship.

The Clipper is a good example of the madness, when it comes to hull strength. A Clipper with engineered armour will have about 1000-1100 effective hull strength. Fill it up with HRPs and you can hit close to 9000-10000 across the board. 10 to 1 on hull only is a joke. The Clipper isn't even a combat ship. It's a fast trader/multi-role. What happened to 'Let combat ships be best in combat'?

Other ships can have similar offsets, tilted more towards shield strength.

I know many PvPers like the asymmetri of combat and defend it. They are however not the worst group.

Last years attempt by FD to nerf shield boosters, showed that the PvE combat crowd is even more extreme in their love for asymmetric combat. A majority of this group which was big enough to be a total majority in the beta, demanded that if you have one of the 'big three' and you have grinded the engineers, you have the right to stay indefinitely(at least as long as the MC ammo and SCBs last) in CZ and HAS Res, without dropping shields.

They demanded full immunity against not only death, but also the economical burden of repairs.

The PvE combat segment is big and influential. Only a common stand between the PvP community and the Open traders/mission runners/multi-rolers(and NPCs ), will have a chance of changing this.

Unless we can agree on something better for everyone, the power creep will continue. We all know how that works. The armed trade Clipper will get 2000 hull points, the combat Clipper gets 20000 and the NPCs gets nada.

 

[Julio Montega]

The strength difference between a merchant ship fitted for defense and a top combat build is vast. Even when we are talking about the same type of ship.

The Clipper is a good example of the madness, when it comes to hull strength. A Clipper with engineered armour will have about 1000-1100 effective hull strength. Fill it up with HRPs and you can hit close to 9000-10000 across the board. 10 to 1 on hull only is a joke. The Clipper isn't even a combat ship. It's a fast trader/multi-role. What happened to 'Let combat ships be best in combat'?

Other ships can have similar offsets, tilted more towards shield strength.

I know many PvPers like the asymmetri of combat and defend it. They are however not the worst group.

Last years attempt by FD to nerf shield boosters, showed that the PvE combat crowd is even more extreme in their love for asymmetric combat. A majority of this group which was big enough to be a total majority in the beta, demanded that if you have one of the 'big three' and you have grinded the engineers, you have the right to stay indefinitely(at least as long as the MC ammo and SCBs last) in CZ and HAS Res, without dropping shields.

They demanded full immunity against not only death, but also the economical burden of repairs.

The PvE combat segment is big and influential. Only a common stand between the PvP community and the Open traders/mission runners/multi-rolers(and NPCs ), will have a chance of changing this.

Unless we can agree on something better for everyone, the power creep will continue. We all know how that works. The armed trade Clipper will get 2000 hull points, the combat Clipper gets 20000 and the NPCs gets nada.

That is the sad song of Elite,
the greatest harm to a playing field
where everyone could enjoy their time
comes from the PvE crowd.
That is my observation, too.

 

[Han_Zen]

That is the sad song of Elite,
the greatest harm to a playing field
where everyone could enjoy their time
comes from the PvE crowd.
That is my observation, too.

Try cornering a PvPer and ask him what he is willing to give up to balance the game. They are a tad better than the PvEers, but not much.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

That is the sad song of Elite,
the greatest harm to a playing field
where everyone could enjoy their time
comes from the PvE crowd.
That is my observation, too.

Are you writing in Haiku's these days?

And yes, i agree to some extent with Han_Zen's comment. It gets a bit silly at times with both PvPers and PvEers not wanting consequences. Fortunately, i do think the devs do have some original thoughts in their heads and don't always listen to the "make it easy" crowd.

Regarding last years balance changes, some good, some meh... perhaps some not great, but overall good. However, i will never forgive PvPers for making the devs ruin the missile and torpedo. There, i said it

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

I always thought I-War 2 did a good job showing how piracy could work with spaceships and, to be honest, I wish that Piracy got a bit more love. However, in order to get that to work some things would have to be looked at;-

1. Selling your stolen goods needs to pay better.
2. Some kind of in game challenge needs to be sent, I wish that FDev would put in a declare piracy message like NPC pirates. Once sent, it could set a piracy flag so if the opponent combat logs while the piracy flag is up, it should help with dealing with CLoggering the encounter.
3. If they resist, I'd aim to disable, hit them with hatch breakers and then leave them to reboot/repair. People would probably be more receptive if their ship wasn't destroyed.
4. Try and Rp the encounter. You have to find a 'victim' that's willing to roleplay the encounter. (I know rare)
5. Make Open more attractive somehow (but not by shutting off the other modes) and explain OPEN is MORE DANGEROUS!
6. Certain ship types (T-6, T-7, etc you know traders) can hire wingmen to help defend themselves. Something a bit more meaty than fighters.

I've been Pvp pirated a few times in open and as long as the 'Pirate' has roleplayed it out, its been fine (mind you, I was able to take the trade losses) but it is a highly subjective subject. One person's rp pirate can be considered one person's griefer.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Regardless of the situation, there is nothing in it for the piratee, unless they happen to enjoy being delayed, running the risk of being destroyed for no reason, and losing profit.

And at the end of the day, for the "honest" pirate, the profits are usually pitiful, the main reward being the enjoyment obtained from the activity. But they at least can be said to get something positive out of the encounter.

For ED-style piracy (victim escapes minus some cargo, cargo sold on generic markets) to work in the sense of being a plausible profession, the pirate needs to (on an averagely-successful attempt) steal so much cargo from the trader than they make a net loss on the trip. If not, then the trader makes more profit than the pirate does for the same size cargo hold.

There are lots of reasons this won't actually work in ED:
1) Too easy for the trader to reliably escape unharmed, especially with engineering
2) Cargo transfer is exceedingly slow between fully cooperating ships, never mind when using hatchbreakers or similar
3) In most circumstances, too easy for the trader to just go where the pirates aren't (even with more players choosing piracy, the bubble is just too big for frequent player interaction in most systems)
4) Extreme variation in hold sizes and trade good profit percentage makes balancing the professions even trickier.
5) Miners make almost 100% profit (minus the cost of a few limpets) on their cargo, so would need to be robbed in full almost 100% of the time to stop them out-profiting pirates. ... Other unrobbable professions - explorers, many mission runners - are also likely to cause significant imbalances.

Fixing all of that is basically impossible without starting over or doing really gamey (and easily exploitable) things such as "cargo stolen from another player sells for 20x the normal price on the black market".

So basically pirating for fun rather than profit, and traders playing along for the same reason, is about all there can be, I think, in Elite Dangerous.

...

Another reason not directly related to the pirate-unfriendly game mechanics, which other people have already mentioned, is that Elite Dangerous - like the three previous games - is basically about the player being the protagonist. Sure, they're not "saving the universe" or some other protagonist-type act ... but they are richer, better equipped, and mostly smarter than the tens of thousands of no-name NPCs they meet and after a short but steep learning curve then effortlessly surpass.

A game where the player was actually "no-one special" as the forum cliche goes (well, let's skip that in Elite Dangerous that *probably* means your experience of space flight is "the inside of a cargo pod") would involve setbacks being a generally present part of the game (unless you were really good) and therefore you wouldn't get the mess that happens now when two opposed protagonists meet.

 

[Heavensburn]

Why did privateering in the 17th century work:

1. It was profitable - for both pirate and piratee
2. Pirates had State sponsorship/protection (England vs Spain)
3. The trade routes were known (limited ports in the New World)

Get Traders into Open

• Cut the payouts by 25% across the board for Private Group and Solo actions - commodity, CG, BGS impact - while increasing payout by 25% for Open. Make this obvious in the payout/commodity market that this multiplier has been applied (call it a tax or environmental premium). You can still trade, BGS, or do a CG in PG/Solo, it just doesn’t pay as well or have as much impact.

System Security

• A High Security system should be impossible to Pirate in. Overwhelming police presence swoops in within seconds - before a pirate has time to kill the pivatee. This will give traders safe zones.
• Anarchy should be pirate hangouts. Payouts for deliveries should be increased as the security level decreases AND if the system has had recent PVP activity.You gotta pay me a lot to ship gold into an Anarchy system where pirates are know to hangout. This can be part of the mission description if done in Open for immersion (“We’ve had an increase in pirate activity and therefore will pay you and extra 25%”)

Players need to know where players are

• Galaxy map update to show trader routes. Add a trader route that provides a heat map of player traffic. Pirates need to know which routes are being used in and out of CGs and high profit systems. This could also be used by escorts to see where they should go to engage pirates.
• Galaxy map shows PVP activity : System colour chart to show which systems have the most PVP engagements. A filter (like we have for population) to specify over what time period (day, week, month, year).

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Why did privateering in the 17th century work:

1. It was profitable - for both pirate and piratee
2. Pirates had State sponsorship/protection (England vs Spain)
3. The trade routes were known (limited ports in the New World)

…

4. it wasn't a game
5. the captains of the trading ships didn't own the ship nor the cargo
6. trading profits where big, really big, absurdly high profits on the standard Europe - Africa - America routes.
7. trading ships where in essence combat ships
8. pirate ships where in essence trading ships

 

[Agony_Aunt]

7. trading ships where in essence combat ships
8. pirate ships where in essence trading ships

So, T10s for everyone?

 

[ALGOMATIC]

One of my last experiences in Open before I decided to bin this game involved trying to engineer a blockade runner Clipper and put it to the test in running the gauntlet in a CG in Open. And for a while I had fun, I was interdicted, I managed to escape by the skin of my teeth, had some quips with the pirates, did cool SC maneuvers to escape ships, until the network code decided to allow another player FdL which spawned 90deg to my left, to successfully interdict me instantly! without the option to submit, bam! FSD cooldown, engineered FdL is OPop dead in 10 seconds.

My point is this: before talking about the motivation for a player to engage in this kind of encounter, take a few steps back, and look a little at the actual encounter and how it plays out. Is it more or less fun than a game of Spider Solitaire?

The root of the problem comes from so many deep, old design decisions. Making "merchant ships" inherently weaker in terms of combat, then forcing them to do combat, doesn't help. Engineer loadouts which take you out in seconds don't help. Reducing most of these events to one-button-press gameplay in the form high-waking doesn't help. Even the latest CLogging scandal which shows that actually everyone is allowed their day in the Open sun, instead of politely asking players with bad connections and even worse nerves, to do themselves and each other a favor, and restrict themselves to a private group, doesn't help.

In conclusion, I'd wager a good number of players would not mind getting involved in a piracy event, IF it was any fun. They'd do it for the sake of the multiplayer interaction alone, regardless of its consequences on the character, because going against a player is more fun and less predictable than playing against the computer. As it stands though, grinding credits in Solo by clicking in menus seems to be more fun than FDEV's whiteboard concept of what happens when two players meet.

Your clipper should not only survive, but to outfly any ship, its one of the fastest ships in the game.
Majority of complaints of that nature is simply not understanding the game mechanics ans making simple mistakes that lead to the rebuy screen.

I have a T7 with 224T of cargo that can escape 3 pvp outfitted FDLs.

 

[Han_Zen]

So, T10s for everyone?

We need to get back to the roots. Cobra with one shield booster, extended cargo bay and military laser for everyone.

 

[Stigbob]

4. it wasn't a game
5. the captains of the trading ships didn't own the ship nor the cargo
6. trading profits where big, really big, absurdly high profits on the standard Europe - Africa - America routes.
7. trading ships where in essence combat ships
8. pirate ships where in essence trading ships

9. You only had one life.