Can we get an explanation of the concept behind ship design?

[BigBadB]

DON"T worry every ship will be soooo balanced that it will not matter what ship you are in, be it an python or sidewinder. You will have the same chance in a one on one battle. this ship has best shields but this ship has best armor sooo which is better? Neither; exactly the same ship just call it a different name. That's how they balance right? LOL.

No, that's exactly the kind of thing that game balance tries to avoid.

Game balance does not mean 'everything is the same'. It means everything has a purpose or role, and everything has strengths and weaknesses so that the game presents the player with interesting and significant decisions.

 

[StuPer]

On the contrary, it's poor balancing that ruins games.

Game balance is fundamental to whether a game is fun to play and can remain fun in the long term.

Gameplay is, essentially, all about making choices. In order to be fun and enjoyable, those choices have to be significant - they have to actually have some impact on the player's game state, and they have to have consequences.

Game balance is all about ensuring that choices exist and are significant. Without balance, a game just isn't any fun to play.

Sorry but no, game balance is totally and wholly a PvP thing, and your version of 'fun' is blowing other players up, which according to FD is one part of a much bigger game. In PvE a person interdicted by a more powerful ship will try and run, and that should be possible, it shouldn't be 'balanced' so that small cheap and easy to get ship has a good chance against the much bigger ship, you know, like in real life..... There is no aspect of life that is 'balanced' the only situations where that exists is contrived, such as sporting contests, but even then a large amount of time is spent trying to find ways to disrupt 'balance'. This game was never advertised as a solely PvP game, and that is the only area where 'balance' matters massively.
As I have said the Python may well have required some toning back, in a comparative sense, but not to make it easier to kill for small cheap ships piloted by PvP players who think anything they can't kill must be OP and needing nerfs.

 

[Darian]

Once you've got the credits to have a python kitted to your taste, there's too few reasons to ever fly anything else.

Python is just the stepping stone to Anaconda.
Because Anaconda is style, and no matter how many guns you stick into a Python it stays a pimped Viper.

Thus i travel in an Anaconda and in Style!

Now you can claim that an Python can very well blow up and Anaconda, but you see, an Abrahms can blow up an Cadillac but still does not have the Style of an Cadillac. ((I am talking about 60s caddilac here, not the junk you get today))

You know, you can go two ways here, either you see ED as numbers and there will be always DAT SHIP! no matter how much they "Balance" it.

Or you fly the ship you LIKE to fly and not the ship you HAVE to fly.

The people who fly the ship they HAVE to fly are loosers, the people who fly the ship they WANT to fly are winners.

That easy

Balancing is futile, there will always be a ship that is DAT SHIP! and if you HAVE to fly DAT SHIP! then you are just someone who obeys.

 

[SchurkjeBoefje]

Ship vs ship balancing is stupid. The largest and most expensive vessels should naturally be more powerful, but maybe it should be more difficult for a large and very powerful vessel to bring a much smaller opponent to battle.


If you're small and lithe you should have the ability to run away.

 

[salad]

I'll buy without hesitation a beautiful bound book with glazed paper and containing all the spaceships with the drawings, and the descriptions very detailed

And huge posters.

 

[Patrick_68000]

And huge posters.

Yes ! Excellent !

 

[Cathalo]

Hello FD team,
Can we as players get an understanding of the design concept behind ships and their roles... At the moment and I guess for the foreseeable future the greatest level of angst and anger on the forums is around what ship should be able to do what. Sadly it seems to me ED is heading the same way of most multi-player games, and the game is starting to be balanced around 1v1 PvP, as opposed to any real world analogy.

I understand the role of freighters and all of them from the Hauler/Transit Van to the T9/Double Bogey Semi-Trailer are clear in their roles and their behaviour is predictable and therefore acceptable.. I have not seen anyone argue a T9 should have better firepower, or superior maneuverability.
The problem is in fighting and multi-role ships, as currently size/mass, cost, running costs, seem to have only marginal bearing on abilities. This leading to a situation where small ships are given the opportunity to out shine (comparatively) larger ships for a much, much lower risk/penalty.

So my question is this, is current fighting/multi-role ship design based on any real world analog such as an Air Force profile or Navy profile, or is it simply 'what feels right'?

I am an older gamer and I need to feel that there is some rationale behind a change process, in the hope it simply is not listening to those that scream the loudest. If there is a real world analogy I can point to and say that makes sense when changes are made I will be happy, it will explain to me in terms that make sense, and I will be less likely to get irritated like I am at present over the changes to the Python, which do seem to be as a result of forum complaints from small ship pilots.
On that note I would like to know why the Viper is not a glass cannon?, the ability to carry the weaponry it can versus its defensive ability seems very overpowered and is obviously the reason the majority of PvP players are flying it. It is also cheap to run and repair, and while it maybe a dedicated fighter, in any military parallel those roles are filled by hardware that has little defenses and relies on aggression to achieve its goal, but if it comes under fire usually goes down very fast, a bit like the current Eagle.

Anyway I digress, I would simply like an understanding of the design map, and thinking behind ship design, please give an old codger some peace, and hope for the future.
Regards
StuPer

A ship is only as strong as the CMDR who is flying it. This isn't a pay to win game or a "I have the most expensive ship so I win" game. When you buy a new ship you need to spend a good amount of time behind the stick and experience it, learn to fly it, learn how to outfit it and you need to build it for certain strengths while giving up advantages in other areas. No ship or CMDR is immune to other players simply because of his ship choice alone. If you are one who spent his career as a trader and then dumped a bunch of money on an expensive combat ship simply expecting to be the best at PvP then you will be disappointed no matter which ship you choose. Most PvPers have spent MANY MANY hours flying Eagles, Vipers or Cobras and have mastered these ships and their loadouts while you have been Trading goods in type 6's or7's or 9's. Just because you buy a more expensive ship does not grant you passage into Elite: DANGEROUS!!!

 

[Darian]

A tank should not be as nimble as a gun truck.

you forgot to add "Exept the tank is an Leopard2"

 

[Arithon]

My understanding of ship balance; If a Viper can beat it, it's fine. If a Viper can't beat it, it needs to be changed.

Because two vipers would be a sin.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

In all the discussion of why bigger ships should br better (generally speaking) there has to be consideration for the multiplayer aspect.

We all know that there are some players with plenty of time on their hands would quickly grind to the biggest ships and then proceed to make life hell for anyone with cheaper ships or jyst trying to trade.

Therefore this does need to be kept in mind ans a certain level of PvP friendliness has to be considered.

Having said that, it also seems right that two equally skilled pilots flying combat oriented ships with equivalent upgrades should more or less have an outcome based off who has the better ship.

I think one of the most sane suggestions so far was about roles. The python would be more desinged for taking out bigger tougher targets that bring in more cash, while the viper more suited to taking out smaller targets. In a fight between the two the python should do big damage against a viper.. Providing it can hit it. The viper conversely should be requires to kill the python by a death of a million cuts as it were.

Trade ships perhaps could do with a little more toughness. I think a trader who goes out loaded with chaff, point defense, good shields and hull hould basically be able to laugh at smaller ships trying to take them on alone, while they sliwly build up their fsd to slowly escape. While the trader who neglects these things should be easy pickings. In other words, greed kills.

what i find hilarious about this thread is the two extreme sides both claiming that FD are nerfing in the wrong way and only listening to the other side. Some real classy cognitive dissonance going on there guys.

 

[Darian]

Most PvPers have spent MANY MANY hours flying Eagles, Vipers or Cobras and have mastered these ships and their loadouts while you have been Trading goods in type 6's or7's or 9's. Just because you buy a more expensive ship does not grant you passage into Elite: DANGEROUS!!!

Why do we not go this ways.

The PvP players have an I-WIN button hardwired into there joysticks.

The other players in elite (who play it not for the only purpose of shooting at each other) have an CAREBEAR button hardwired to there mouse.

The I-WIN button explodes every ship with an CAREBEAR button instantly.

Every time an CAREBEAR button is activated the ship in question is restored to how it was a second before it exploded.

This way the pvp players can make all ships explode all day and be happy.

The other players push there carebear button and merrily travel on on there way to do whatever fun things they want to do that do not involve only blowing up ships.

(Yesyes i am quite a little bit annoyed that ELITE is now all about pvp and only pvp because it is named ELITE DANGEROUS so it can only mean it has to be all about the pvp and everything else is not PLAYING THE GAME RIGHT)

Really, pvp is fun but people are becoming a little bit of obsessive here.

 

[BigBadB]

Sorry but no, game balance is totally and wholly a PvP thing

Balance is a fundamental principle in all games. It doesn't matter whether they're solo, multiplayer, PvP, PvE or whatever.

A poorly balanced game is no fun to play. A well balanced game is fun to play. It's that simple as a concept (although actually achieving and maintaining a good balance can be incredibly hard).

and your version of 'fun' is blowing other players up, which according to FD is one part of a much bigger game.

Erm, so far I've yet to have a combat encounter with another player. I play in Open, and am aware that at some stage I will encounter PvP - the added risk and challenge from having other players around is why I choose to play in Open - but I am in no way a hardcore PvP player.

In PvE a person interdicted by a more powerful ship will try and run, and that should be possible, it shouldn't be 'balanced' so that small cheap and easy to get ship has a good chance against the much bigger ship

In general I agree, and that's exactly what game balance is about - ensuring that the choice to fly a small, cheap ship or a large, powerful ship both have advantages and disadvantages.

you know, like in real life..... There is no aspect of life that is 'balanced' the only situations where that exists is contrived, such as sporting contests, but even then a large amount of time is spent trying to find ways to disrupt 'balance'. This game was never advertised as a solely PvP game, and that is the only area where 'balance' matters massively.

Sports are a form of game (or games are a form of sport, depending on your point of view).

Games (and sports) are a form of structured play. Their 'contrived' structure is exactly what makes them fun, in comparison to real life, which as you say isn't balanced and consequently isn't a lot of fun at times.

As I have said the Python may well have required some toning back, in a comparative sense, but not to make it easier to kill for small cheap ships piloted by PvP players who think anything they can't kill must be OP and needing nerfs.

With respect, you're making a completely unsupported assumption - on what evidence are you basing your belief that the goal of the Python nerf is to make it easier for small cheap ships to kill it in PvP? I have seen no dev statement that even implies this is the case, let alone supports it directly.

The Python is being toned down a little because it's simply too good in too many ways. That reduces the choices available to the players and makes the game less fun. It also (and this is something that the devs have made clear) causes problems for the additional ships that are on their way. The Python is supposed to a 'multi-role' ship, like the Cobra - a 'jack of all trades but master of none'. Right now its so powerful in combat that there isn't 'room' for the upcoming large combat ship (the Vulture). The Vulture, as a dedicated combat ship, should be better in combat than the Python, a multi-role ship, but it can't be because the Python is overpowered.

Note that none of that has anything specifically to do with PvP or small ships. I'm not saying that PvP balance and the balance between smaller and large ships aren't things that the devs are taking into account when balancing - they absolutely should be taken into account - but they are far from the only things the devs are thinking about. (This is what makes balancing a game as large and complex as ED so hard - everything affects everything else, and you have to try to take it all into account. It's a very, very difficult process.)

 

[MadDogMurdock]

I think people need to just calm down a bit.
The issue of balance is extremely difficult because there are so many factors in play.

New players in starter ships will get put off very quickly if they just continually get swatted by ships they can't touch or can't escape.
Long time players will be put off if their investment in time and effort in getting a powerful expensive ship is seemingly wasted by cheap kill-ships.

Personally, I enjoy the game in a Sidie as much as an Anaconda - and I want all ships to be viable game experiences, while also still offering some level of challenge and risk.

Let FD tweak the numbers and change a few mechanics, they can always be tweaked again if they get it wrong or some new factor comes into play.

So long as there is some consistent framework with regard to ship role, size, and cost compared to their capabilities then there's plenty of room for maneuvre.

 

[Cathalo]

Why do we not go this ways.

The PvP players have an I-WIN button hardwired into there joysticks.

The other players in elite (who play it not for the only purpose of shooting at each other) have an CAREBEAR button hardwired to there mouse.

The I-WIN button explodes every ship with an CAREBEAR button instantly.

Every time an CAREBEAR button is activated the ship in question is restored to how it was a second before it exploded.

This way the pvp players can make all ships explode all day and be happy.

The other players push there carebear button and merrily travel on on there way to do whatever fun things they want to do that do not involve only blowing up ships.

(Yesyes i am quite a little bit annoyed that ELITE is now all about pvp and only pvp because it is named ELITE DANGEROUS so it can only mean it has to be all about the pvp and everything else is not PLAYING THE GAME RIGHT)

Really, pvp is fun but people are becoming a little bit of obsessive here.

It's not obsessive at all. The game gives you three different modes to play in, Open, Group or Solo. Pick the one that suites you. But don't be naïve and expect to hide in solo play while earning millions of credits without risk and then buy an expensive combat ship and come into Open and start kicking ass straight off the bat. You will fail if you do this. If you want to be better at combat, you need to practice at it a fair bit. You need to spend as much time as you spend trading or doing PvE stuff to get better at combat. Ultimately, it is your choice but don't complain when a 30k rebuy ship blows up your 50 million rebuy.

 

[StuPer]

Balance is a fundamental principle in all games. It doesn't matter whether they're solo, multiplayer, PvP, PvE or whatever.

A poorly balanced game is no fun to play. A well balanced game is fun to play. It's that simple as a concept (although actually achieving and maintaining a good balance can be incredibly hard).


Erm, so far I've yet to have a combat encounter with another player. I play in Open, and am aware that at some stage I will encounter PvP - the added risk and challenge from having other players around is why I choose to play in Open - but I am in no way a hardcore PvP player.


In general I agree, and that's exactly what game balance is about - ensuring that the choice to fly a small, cheap ship or a large, powerful ship both have advantages and disadvantages.


Sports are a form of game (or games are a form of sport, depending on your point of view).

Games (and sports) are a form of structured play. Their 'contrived' structure is exactly what makes them fun, in comparison to real life, which as you say isn't balanced and consequently isn't a lot of fun at times.


With respect, you're making a completely unsupported assumption - on what evidence are you basing your belief that the goal of the Python nerf is to make it easier for small cheap ships to kill it in PvP? I have seen no dev statement that even implies this is the case, let alone supports it directly.

The Python is being toned down a little because it's simply too good in too many ways. That reduces the choices available to the players and makes the game less fun. It also (and this is something that the devs have made clear) causes problems for the additional ships that are on their way. The Python is supposed to a 'multi-role' ship, like the Cobra - a 'jack of all trades but master of none'. Right now its so powerful in combat that there isn't 'room' for the upcoming large combat ship (the Vulture). The Vulture, as a dedicated combat ship, should be better in combat than the Python, a multi-role ship, but it can't be because the Python is overpowered.

Note that none of that has anything specifically to do with PvP or small ships. I'm not saying that PvP balance and the balance between smaller and large ships aren't things that the devs are taking into account when balancing - they absolutely should be taken into account - but they are far from the only things the devs are thinking about. (This is what makes balancing a game as large and complex as ED so hard - everything affects everything else, and you have to try to take it all into account. It's a very, very difficult process.)

Thank you BigBadB I have lost a bit of perspective through this thread and you are right I did make assumptions in replying to your comments. That being said and bringing the thread back on-topic I would still like to hear some sort of design philosophy regarding ship design and function, I don't see it as a trade secret or some mysterious mystic game secret. What is likely to be an issue is that should they actually offer something it will be a template that future decisions will be measured against and a lot of companies are scared of that. It does however offer the advantage of players knowing what the thinking processes are around design choices and changes. If there is a need to change that at a future date, well as long as there are open and honest reasons for that people will still feel unhappy but they at least get some communication about it.
ED is different from most games in that a lot of the players AND devs have a huge amount of history invested in it and are very passionate about it, for that reason I hope the devs will communicate with the player base as they did with the early backers as the game moves forward.

 

[StuPer]

Hi Cathalo,
You are right anyone who has purely traded their butt off and then jumps into a major ship expecting to kick bottom should be disappointed angry even, but without justification. However while I cannot speak for others, my intention (and I am now implementing) was to get the money, buy a small cheap ship with the best gear, learn to fight better (I'm not a total loss) then come back with the big nasty and where necessary spank ass.
Now I ask you, should I be successful and the advantage of the big ship with my acquired fighting skills means I beat viper/cobra pilots repeatedly, will they accept "oh he's just better than me" or will they cry "nerf dat sh*t"?

 

[Darian]

It's not obsessive at all. The game gives you three different modes to play in, Open, Group or Solo. Pick the one that suites you. But don't be naïve and expect to hide in solo play while earning millions of credits without risk and then buy an expensive combat ship and come into Open and start kicking ass straight off the bat. You will fail if you do this. If you want to be better at combat, you need to practice at it a fair bit. You need to spend as much time as you spend trading or doing PvE stuff to get better at combat. Ultimately, it is your choice but don't complain when a 30k rebuy ship blows up your 50 million rebuy.

<sigh>
I was talking about obsession and i am right.
I said its not all about the pvp
Do you think people who play traders go solo because they want to grind that big warship and obliterate all others?
(Ok maybe a few, who knows)

The majority of traders i have read here or talked with go solo because they want to enjoy the game without serving as soft target for the LULZ kill crowd (and dare to claim that all PVP junkies are only in it for the sport, i have read enough posts here about taking out that big dumb t9 out just because)

I played EVE three years, miner, blockade runner and spy, and it is a real shame to have to point it out, there was more atmosphere, more immersion in EVE as is right now in ELITE that is supposed to be anout "make your way" and "explore" and so on.

And there was even in PvP in EVE more to it than flying around and looking for ships to pop.

HELL even the pure PKers made it fun by leaving miners alone three weeks out of four and then calling out the miner hunt for 24 hours and everyone out at his own peril.

So how about getting out of this " solo traders only do it to come back with the ubah python to insta win button kill me"


KNOW WHAT?

I pop an un skilled python pilot pre nerf as much as post nerf, but it does not really interest me one way or the other because i have no problem with other people thinking they got it right.
If the n00b in the Titan gets fresh he gets slaughtered, if he behaves not, that easy, meanwhile i have better things to do, like flying around in an ridicoulous badly put together anaconda each viper can slaughter, but i have fun doing it.

But i do it in group because the pvp only is right crowd would off course find that objectionable " Look an Anaconda set up with turrets and not fixed weapons, it has to dIE MUAHAHAHA !!!1!!!! !!!!!!

See that is the problem, its all PvP and nothign else, so its ELITE PVP .

Have fun in open playing Arena.

 

[Flyinpiranha]

A ship is only as strong as the CMDR who is flying it. This isn't a pay to win game or a "I have the most expensive ship so I win" game. When you buy a new ship you need to spend a good amount of time behind the stick and experience it, learn to fly it, learn how to outfit it and you need to build it for certain strengths while giving up advantages in other areas. No ship or CMDR is immune to other players simply because of his ship choice alone. If you are one who spent his career as a trader and then dumped a bunch of money on an expensive combat ship simply expecting to be the best at PvP then you will be disappointed no matter which ship you choose. Most PvPers have spent MANY MANY hours flying Eagles, Vipers or Cobras and have mastered these ships and their loadouts while you have been Trading goods in type 6's or7's or 9's. Just because you buy a more expensive ship does not grant you passage into Elite: DANGEROUS!!!

Yeah, you know what's funny? The first time PVPers don't have have an automatic IWIN against the Python and actually have a challenge they may have to change their loadout, get some friends and coordinate, what do they do? Learn to take one out? Maybe avoid it altogether? Nope. They gathered under that "It's called DANGEROUS" flag and ran to the forums to cry for a nerf. So, the whole "Dangerous" mantra can be shelved, it's obviously not true. They don't want it dangerous, they want it "balanced" which means no matter what you're flying you can kill something. That doesn't sound "dangerous" to me at all.

"It's DANGEROUS ... .but not too dangerous, I still want to take out 150m cr. ships in my PEZ Dispensed Viper". What a joke. "Dangerous" to the PVP crowd is taking on a T6 with no shields. Throw an unfair fight the OTHER way it's crying for "balance".

 

[Darian]

"It's DANGEROUS ... .but not too dangerous, I still want to take out 150m cr. ships in my PEZ Dispensed Viper". What a joke. "Dangerous" to the PVP crowd is taking on a T6 with no shields. Throw an unfair fight the OTHER way it's crying for "balance".

Now you are not fair, the Head developer stated that weak easy to hunt freighters where explicit put into elite for other players to have easy rich prey, its somewhere up in the nerf submitting to indiction and then jump out again thread, that is way we get a longer cooldown for FSD plus no submitting to interdiction anymore so they can not escape the high powered vipers.
You can not blame them for doing as the developers intended