Tarder. You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. 
Can we please buff trader ships?
- Thread starter Crimson Kaim
- Start date
Are you attacking from the underside of the ship where the cargo hatch is located?
Module damage should be more significant in that it gradually effects the output of the modules effected. So cargo should start falling out once some damage has been taken, thrust and manoeuvrability should be affected once thrusters have been damaged a little bit, power output should be effected by damage to the power plant etc etc.
As it stands, attacking modules on anything but the largest ships is pointless and even then there are limited uses. I attack the powerplant or thrusters on a conda but if I want to disable the thrusters (the point where it does anything), the hull will have about 15% health remaining anyway. If i hadn't targetted the thrusters that 15% wouldn't exist as hitting modules means doing less damage to the hull.
It's a quirky system, sometimes better left alone.
For me this issue ties with the whole business of interdictions. People have called for something to be done with the state of submit, boost, high wake.
My usual response to that has been something like: Not until the trade ships can be kitted to survive such encounters.
Whether that is from better shields/hull or something else is up for debate, but until it happens, we can't leave traders with no route to escape. At least if you ever want to see traders in Open ever again.
To my mind trade ships are half right. Slow and not manouverable. The other half is they need to be more tanky and bristling with hardpoints and a powerplant capable of powering them. Alternately, and even better, more defensive weapons. Mines that work. Missiles that can lock on targets chasing you and actually can damage shields (not suggesting a return to their pre-nerf days, perhaps different missiles, some do thermal damage, some do kinetic, and you need to kit both). Perhaps other options could present themselves, that are more of benefit to a fleeing trader rather than a chasing combat ship.
If you look at it from an in-universe perspective, no sane trader would ever fly half of those "trade" ships, because the risk would far outweigh the benefits. Yes, we have insurance and "escape capsules" but from an ingame perspective what trader would fly one of those flying coffins?
Traders would go: Adder -> Cobra -> Asp -> Clipper -> Python -> Anaconda (or something like that). Ships that can either fight back or run. Lakon would have to retire their line of Tx ships.
Let's get tanky and defensive trade ships, then it gives us room to discuss interdictions and escaping them.
My usual response to that has been something like: Not until the trade ships can be kitted to survive such encounters.
Whether that is from better shields/hull or something else is up for debate, but until it happens, we can't leave traders with no route to escape. At least if you ever want to see traders in Open ever again.
To my mind trade ships are half right. Slow and not manouverable. The other half is they need to be more tanky and bristling with hardpoints and a powerplant capable of powering them. Alternately, and even better, more defensive weapons. Mines that work. Missiles that can lock on targets chasing you and actually can damage shields (not suggesting a return to their pre-nerf days, perhaps different missiles, some do thermal damage, some do kinetic, and you need to kit both). Perhaps other options could present themselves, that are more of benefit to a fleeing trader rather than a chasing combat ship.
If you look at it from an in-universe perspective, no sane trader would ever fly half of those "trade" ships, because the risk would far outweigh the benefits. Yes, we have insurance and "escape capsules" but from an ingame perspective what trader would fly one of those flying coffins?
Traders would go: Adder -> Cobra -> Asp -> Clipper -> Python -> Anaconda (or something like that). Ships that can either fight back or run. Lakon would have to retire their line of Tx ships.
Let's get tanky and defensive trade ships, then it gives us room to discuss interdictions and escaping them.
They aren't even tradeships - there's a couple that can lift more cargo. They should have better cargo space yield from equipping modules.
The problem i have is if you buff them to much then they will never have to comply as they will always be able to jump out without any danger
Well, in their trader loadouts. Not a fully A spec combat Python ofcourse!
I'll be honest: normally you seem to have a pretty good grasp of how things work. You're so massively off the mark here that I find it don't believe you actually tried it. Rather, I believe you have been looking at stats and 'guesstimating' how things would work how. Let me give you the following two examples, both 1.4:
1) I've been earning huge sums of cash with long-range smuggling in my smuggling Asp with 88t cargo space. Assuming you want at least a c5 shield the max possible is 96, with a c6 its 64. So this is no combat build. I've been interdicted dozens of times, and killed scores of high-ranked security ships and pirates up to Pythons (never been interdicted by a conda pirate, oddly enough).
2) With my smuggling money I've gotten my Explorer Conda for the Unknown Artifact research. It's D-rated except for the FSD and PP, with the thrusters and power distributor downrated one class, and the powerplant two full classes. Before I went on my first journey I tried the build at a nav beacon and earned 500k without ever getting in trouble. Wiped the floor with a Clipper + two couriers. When sending a collector limpet at a UA I was attacked by a competent FdL. It died very, very fast.
Seriously, what you're saying is plain nonsense. The multi-role traders can easily defend themselves against pirates. Also, a T9 with upgraded bulkheads approaches a conda armour-wise. A t7 can drag =-140t around while having more armor and shields than a stock dropship with 5A shields. They cant fight back (nor should they), but they sure as heck can be outfitted to the point they can withstand some hard combat, nevermind some lame pirate in a Viper (seriously, you can just grab a beer while it shoots at you and jump when you come back). A t6 is fragile, but what do you expect for a <1mil ship 9with discounts) that ships 100+ tons? Get a cobra if it bothers you, but I've had lots of fun FA-off boosting around Cobra pirates in my CG T6 (NPC, try that against cmdrs and you're toast
). You can do that as long as you want, really.Really man, just try it and bring your combat chops along. You'll see you'll be fine if you prepare a bit.
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but that means deploying HP. And when you do that you cant spool your FSD.
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While I agree with this statement in general, because dedicated trade ships probably should have their hardpoints (light as they would be) arranged to maximize turret coverage I don't see it happening because it would require completely reworked models of those ships. I think their current layout is a casualty of the original Elite vision, as if dedicated traders would be mounting light offensive armament rather than considering their guns as part of a layered defense, the considerations for the two roles being very different of course.
a truly huge trading ship (T9 or bigger) IMHO would not be just a giant eggshell - its sheer mass alone would dictate a heavier internal structure and thicker hull armor in proportion to its size than a smaller ship. Its shields would still be comparatively weak, but while its weapons would still be light they'd be spaced over the hull to eliminate turret blind spots as much as possible - this thing would be a porcupine not a wolverine.
Er, yeah, except it cripples the jump range, which is not a good idea for a trader, really.
And for what kind of player is less jump range a good idea? We all have to make choices. Also, check this:
http://coriolis.io/outfit/type_9_he...17-------070605040303020201.Iw18eQ==.Aw18eQ==
Upgrading to military bulkheads and nearly doubling your armor costs you a whopping 1LY when fully laden. One. As in 'singular'. Whoopdiedoo.
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All this maximum credits per hour mentality has made people fit weak ass ships, you deserve to be shot out into the vacuum for bad ship building
These ships can fit huge shields, turreted weapons, chaff, SCBs, mil spec hull the list goes on
You trade your insurance for maximum cargo it's simple
These ships can fit huge shields, turreted weapons, chaff, SCBs, mil spec hull the list goes on
You trade your insurance for maximum cargo it's simple
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More or less. I think this started when there was little risk and min-maxing made sense. Its not just traders, you also have tons of explorers complaining their weaponless and shieldless Asps were shot when returning home, losing all their data. Add to that the whole 'download guide, load app, follow like a robot' mentality (and all these guides recommend terrible ship-builds), spend literally zero effort on route-planning (select fastest route, select destination ordered by your app, go) and zero SC strategy (point ship at station, go full speed, 75% throttle near the end, get interdicted when you're almost there) and you are just cruisin' for bruisin'.
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Hrm, having flown all the trade ships now I really think they should have upgraded hull, maybe allow trade ships to have either more armour or better bulkheads? say they start out with reinforced, but a special version of it that would not weigh more then lightweight? it wouldn't do too much but it would make them not feel like paper.
Why is this needed when you can fit SCBs? And military composite.
4 shots of 75% of a 5A shield on a t7, for a measly size 2 C rated scb and still hauling 196 tons
It's all available already
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Well my reasoning is that space being dangerous for traders so it would be smart to sell them with just a tiny bit advantage? and I mean why not? I get it that they can sacrifice profit for survivability, but in the end trade ships are so poor in terms of combat it doesn't seem over the top to just give them a tiny bump, remember we are only talking reinforced not anything bigger, against any decently fitted combat ship it will not really matter.
Edit: heck it might actually allow pirates to hit them without worrying that they will blow up?
edit2: reinforced level default armour on its own is not going to suddenly make them survive a lot better, but more like cardboard rather then paper.
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Deleted member 38366
D
IMHO the Lakon Traders are max. Profit-Machines.
Built and designed for max. Cargo capacity and most cost-effective design. Hence their low hull armor despite their physical size. Aluminium plating so to speak... Holds the Ship together but absolutely dislikes Weapon fire.
That... they do. But it comes at the well-known price of becoming a comparably easy target.
Obviously, Credits available is a big factor.
Hence, a Type-6 CMDR might appreciate the added protection of a Trading Asp instead - but simply lacks the Credits to kit it.
Same for a Type-7 CMDR who might eye a Python Trader - but lacks the Credits.
And a Type-9 CMDR surely would appreciate the Range & Capabilities of an Anaconda for Trading. But same story, expensive gear to buy & kit.
If I look for the Trading alternatives (similar Cargo but better Combat survivability), I see they're much more expensive than i.e. their Cargo-only Lakon counterparts.
And as Credits are missing to step up, what is a Trader to do? Of course use the most profitable Trade Ships and their Cargo capacity to get there
So I see it as a somehow predictable fate of the Lakon Ships and their CMDRs.
Unfortunately, the current Wings implementation doesn't allow for secure yet ad-hoc hiring of Wingmen as protection. Technically you can ask around - but the end result can be literally everything.
NPC Wingmen would solve all these issues. Reliable (to the extent NPCs can be), trustable and dependable (no instancing issues, no need to wait for Friends to come up and bind them for the duration of your Trade runs etc.).
But I guess that's still a long way out.
PS.
I'm surprised there isn't yet a widespread and well-known "Trade Rats" around. Dedicated Transporter Escort & Protection.
I do know some smaller Groups exist(ed) with that purpose, but none ever seemed to become an institution (?)
Built and designed for max. Cargo capacity and most cost-effective design. Hence their low hull armor despite their physical size. Aluminium plating so to speak... Holds the Ship together but absolutely dislikes Weapon fire.
That... they do. But it comes at the well-known price of becoming a comparably easy target.
Obviously, Credits available is a big factor.
Hence, a Type-6 CMDR might appreciate the added protection of a Trading Asp instead - but simply lacks the Credits to kit it.
Same for a Type-7 CMDR who might eye a Python Trader - but lacks the Credits.
And a Type-9 CMDR surely would appreciate the Range & Capabilities of an Anaconda for Trading. But same story, expensive gear to buy & kit.
If I look for the Trading alternatives (similar Cargo but better Combat survivability), I see they're much more expensive than i.e. their Cargo-only Lakon counterparts.
And as Credits are missing to step up, what is a Trader to do? Of course use the most profitable Trade Ships and their Cargo capacity to get there
So I see it as a somehow predictable fate of the Lakon Ships and their CMDRs.
Unfortunately, the current Wings implementation doesn't allow for secure yet ad-hoc hiring of Wingmen as protection. Technically you can ask around - but the end result can be literally everything.
NPC Wingmen would solve all these issues. Reliable (to the extent NPCs can be), trustable and dependable (no instancing issues, no need to wait for Friends to come up and bind them for the duration of your Trade runs etc.).
But I guess that's still a long way out.
PS.
I'm surprised there isn't yet a widespread and well-known "Trade Rats" around. Dedicated Transporter Escort & Protection.
I do know some smaller Groups exist(ed) with that purpose, but none ever seemed to become an institution (?)
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Space is dangerous for everyone, and we all want free armor. Still not much of an argument IMHO. Its not a 'minor upgrade' you're proposing, it's a 40% price reduction (thats the relative cost of reinforced armor). Thats massive. Thats akin to a Conda pilot asking for free 7A thrusters 'because space is so big and I need more speed'.
While I have to disagree with the need for more options regarding survivability, heck back to the t7 with military hull and 2 sets of scb has 420 armor and 980 total shield mj.
The AI wing implementation would probably have solved this many moons ago and as said above, I too think we should have had it already.
The AI wing implementation would probably have solved this many moons ago and as said above, I too think we should have had it already.
I wonder what makes more trade profit, a Lakon that sacrifices some jump range and cargo capacity for decent shields, a reinforced hull, a shield cell banks or two, and a few shield boosters, or a dead Lakon? Quick, someone build a website that'll calculate the profit per hour!